The message
from Roger Van Loon contains these words:


As soon as you and the British gardeners come
up with a better winter hardiness system (even if only for the UK),
I'm sure it will be a howling success. Why haven't you?

Probably because, as many have tried fruitlessly to explain to you,
our combination of latitude and small islands' maritime climate makes
nonsense of generalities within the space of a couple of miles, as Pete
explained.

If you haven't
found one - why complain?

I haven't seen anyone complain about not having one, merely point out
to the OP and overseas contributors that the USDA zone system has not
been found to be useful in the UK.

Janet

The message 8Zv6a.247620$be.227729@rwcrnsc53
from "Anne Middleton/Harold Walker" contains these words:

Roger.......I find it difficult to talk meaningful "stuff" with many an
English gardener.....

Regretfully, this UK group's charter precludes the discussion of your
social deficiencies.

Janet.

Anne Middleton/Harold Walker wrote:

Roger.......I find it difficult to talk meaningful "stuff" with many an
English gardener......their way or no way.....just like a visitor to my
place a couple of years ago that told me I knew nothing about cutting
grass.....he wanted to cut mine as short as he cuts his in the UK......could
I get him to understand our reasons for keeping the grass a minimum height
of between 2 1/2 to 3 inches.....not on your life......hec, if I cut mine to
English heights it would be burnt brown before the end of June unless I
poured about an inch of water per day on it.....his final answer was that
American grass must differ from English grass.......what rubbish........HW..

US grass is almost certainly very different to English grass (unless you are so
dumb as to try and grow an English cultivar and smother it in water to keep it
alive). Grasses adapted to hot summer continental climates are different. Even
within England there are a huge choice of grasses and turf qualities depending
on whether you want a perfect bowling green, football pitch or a rough and
tumble play area.

There is a huge range of grass species - they are one of the most successful
plant forms on the planet.

Japanese wild grasses are actually brown for the entire dry cool winter season.
And so are their lawns.

Regards,
Martin Brown

I am told by an English seed merchant that a number of grasses grown in the
UK are from seed produced in the USA ........ the summer climate in some
parts of the USA are not overly different from the UK.......(he purchases
seeds direct from the USA).......the typical watering requirement in the USA
is an inch of water per week with an increase in the hotter
weather........(the only fools I know over here that water every day are
those that think a daily five minute sprinling/watering is
successful).......the less frequent watering forces the roots to go deeper
and is a preventative measure........the most common/popular/desirable lawn
grass seeds in the USA turn brown in the summer's heat when cut too short
but remain green with a higher cut and using the same amount of water per
week........the once per week and twice per week in the real warm weather
gives a beautiful looking turf when cut high enough but very often results
in a brown one when cut too short..........did not many a home lawn in the
UK turn brown in the past year or so due to the hottish dry weather and
continued "bowling green length mowing?......HW

US grass is almost certainly very different to English grass (unless you
are so
dumb as to try and grow an English cultivar and smother it in water to
keep it
alive). Grasses adapted to hot summer continental climates are different.
Even
within England there are a huge choice of grasses and turf qualities
depending
on whether you want a perfect bowling green, football pitch or a rough and
tumble play area.

There is a huge range of grass species - they are one of the most
successful
plant forms on the planet.

Japanese wild grasses are actually brown for the entire dry cool winter
season.
And so are their lawns.

Regards,
Martin Brown

In article ljH6a.226943$SD6.11970@sccrnsc03,
"Anne Middleton/Harold Walker" writes:
|
| I am told by an English seed merchant that a number of grasses grown in the
| UK are from seed produced in the USA ........

That is true for a lot of our plants. A lot will grow in the UK,
but not set seed at all reliably.

| the summer climate in some
| parts of the USA are not overly different from the UK.......

Other than a small part of the Pacific North West coastline, which
is not where the grasses will be grown for seed, that is not so.
If you disagree, please name some such places.

| the typical watering requirement in the USA
| is an inch of water per week with an increase in the hotter
| weather........

Many parts of the UK get less than half that. It is the lower
evaporation that makes the difference.

| did not many a home lawn in the
| UK turn brown in the past year or so due to the hottish dry weather and
| continued "bowling green length mowing?......

Yes, but not much in the past year or so, when we have had wet
summers.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren,
University of Cambridge Computing Service,
New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England.
Email:
Tel.: +44 1223 334761 Fax: +44 1223 334679

"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message
...



Other than a small part of the Pacific North West coastline, which
is not where the grasses will be grown for seed, that is not so.
If you disagree, please name some such places.////////////you have it
pretty much correct///////even on Cape Cod, with what we call a maratime
type of climate, the overall conditions differ greatly from over
there......we rarely have what I call a spring tho...more often than not it
goes from winterish weather to summer almost "overnight"....it is made up
tho by our long fall season. The Cape is 95 percent surrounded by the
sea.......in the summer time around August the sea temp. gets into the mid
20's C and does not reach its lowest temp. until around the end of
February.......current sea temp. around the Cape is plus 1/2 degree C. The
"average" night time winter temp is around the minus 7 C with a few nights
going down to the minus 17 degree C.........inland from here and by as
little as 25 miles or so the winter temp. will drop down to as low as minus
30 degrees C..........in spite of this I noticed yesterday the daffodils are
finally poking their noses thru the soil......oh, to be in England when
spring arrives.

Harold W.

Regards,
Nick Maclaren,
University of Cambridge Computing Service,
New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England.
Email:
Tel.: +44 1223 334761 Fax: +44 1223 334679

In article , Roger Van Loon
writes
Kay Easton wrote:

In article , Roger Van Loon
writes

OK, you are right, of course. Depending upon "how fine you make your
divisions", the whole of the UK (or Europe, or the whole northern
hemisphere) can be one climatic zone :-)
(not an USDA zone of course)

And the UK with its short winter day length and cold wet winters doesn't
fit happily into the UK zones.

I suppose by that last you mean "the USDA zones".

Yep, sorry - typo.

Then, it's not a
question of fitting (happily or unhappily). It's just a question of
temperatures and statistics: they show what zone you are in, the whole
world over. Day length or wetness don't have anything to do with
that system :-))

Agreed. But being able to grow a particular plant does.

You could just as well state that the US, with their continental
climate, don't fit well into their zone system :-)))

Though I had the impression from this thread that US gardeners find the
system a good indicator of whether a particular plant will survive?

Of course (sigh) for the winter survival of plants there are also
other factors involved...

Yes - at least we have one point we can agree on! :-)
--
Kay Easton

Edward's earthworm page:
http://www.scarboro.demon.co.uk/garden/

I, for one, find the plant zonal classification not only helpful but
absolutely essential...without it I would be completely at a loss when it
comes to plant survival possibilities........it is only helpful re
temperature and is not an indicator of dry or wet, sun or shade etc. etc..
There is little point in planting a perennial or shrub rated for zone 9 in a
zone 6 location...it would not survive. Even tho a zone 6 rated plant may
survive temperature wise there is no certainty whatsoever it will survive a
particular location due to other circumstances........anyone suggesting that
the system has no value within the USA should take a few lessons in USA
horticulture.......HW.
"Kay Easton" wrote in message
...
In article , Roger Van Loon
writes
Kay Easton wrote:

In article , Roger Van Loon
writes

OK, you are right, of course. Depending upon "how fine you make your
divisions", the whole of the UK (or Europe, or the whole northern
hemisphere) can be one climatic zone :-)
(not an USDA zone of course)

And the UK with its short winter day length and cold wet winters
doesn't
fit happily into the UK zones.

I suppose by that last you mean "the USDA zones".

Yep, sorry - typo.

Then, it's not a
question of fitting (happily or unhappily). It's just a question of
temperatures and statistics: they show what zone you are in, the whole
world over. Day length or wetness don't have anything to do with
that system :-))

Agreed. But being able to grow a particular plant does.

You could just as well state that the US, with their continental
climate, don't fit well into their zone system :-)))

Though I had the impression from this thread that US gardeners find the
system a good indicator of whether a particular plant will survive?

Of course (sigh) for the winter survival of plants there are also
other factors involved...

Yes - at least we have one point we can agree on! :-)
--
Kay Easton

Edward's earthworm page:
http://www.scarboro.demon.co.uk/garden/

In article t, Anne
Middleton/Harold Walker writes
I, for one, find the plant zonal classification not only helpful but
absolutely essential...without it I would be completely at a loss when it
comes to plant survival possibilities........it is only helpful re
temperature and is not an indicator of dry or wet, sun or shade etc. etc..
There is little point in planting a perennial or shrub rated for zone 9 in a
zone 6 location...it would not survive. Even tho a zone 6 rated plant may
survive temperature wise there is no certainty whatsoever it will survive a
particular location due to other circumstances........anyone suggesting that
the system has no value within the USA should take a few lessons in USA
horticulture.......HW.

I don't think anyone was, were they? I thought we were only arguing
about whether it is useful in the UK.


But I know that within my own garden, the words 'sunny well drained
position' is as big a contraindication as any words about hardiness or
otherwise ;-)
--
Kay Easton

Edward's earthworm page:
http://www.scarboro.demon.co.uk/garden/

I may have misread some of the postings..my sincere apologies if I did....I
will do my best to be more careful next time.......(have just lashed myself
ten times with a wet noodle.....supposed to be a funny....an
Americanism)........HW.

I don't think anyone was, were they? I thought we were only arguing
about whether it is useful in the UK.


But I know that within my own garden, the words 'sunny well drained
position' is as big a contraindication as any words about hardiness or
otherwise ;-)
--
Kay Easton

Edward's earthworm page:
http://www.scarboro.demon.co.uk/garden/

On Tue, 25 Feb 2003 18:46:43 +0000, Kay Easton
wrote:

...[do] US gardeners find the
system a good indicator of whether a particular plant will survive?

Well this born-and-brought-up-in-the-US Canadian gardener finds
the zone indications very helpful. One can't take them as gospel,
of course! But if something is zone 7 or colder, it's pretty sure
to do okay in my garden, barring moisture-induced rot or some
other idiosyncracy. Zone 8 is a bit of a gamble -- some Z8 plants
are fine in my heavyish wet loam, others detest conditions. And
Z9 or warmer is almost always a waste of time, though a few do
"not badly".

And, yes, I ignore my own rants on the subject and use the zone
ratings for plants other than woody ones. Do as I say, not as I
do -- or vice versa, depending on taste.

Bear in mind that conditions here in the PacNW somewhat resemble
those in Britain, though we have much drier, sunnier summers,
with correspondingly wetter winters.

But zones aren't everything. I've found by sad experience that
herbaceous material from Japan performs very poorly for me. It
often rots away during the winter. The same material performs
very well in the eastern US, a zone or two colder than we are
here, but with drier winters and hotter, more humid summers.


--
Rodger Whitlock
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada

Roger: Am taking a guess that you are somewhere around the Vancouver
area........one of the finest of gardening areas I have ever seen......and
have seen in many areas thru-out the world........lucky you if it be there.
HW.
Bear in mind that conditions here in the PacNW somewhat resemble
those in Britain, though we have much drier, sunnier summers,
with correspondingly wetter winters.

But zones aren't everything. I've found by sad experience that
herbaceous material from Japan performs very poorly for me. It
often rots away during the winter. The same material performs
very well in the eastern US, a zone or two colder than we are
here, but with drier winters and hotter, more humid summers.


--
Rodger Whitlock
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada

In article ,
(Rodger Whitlock) writes:
| On Tue, 25 Feb 2003 18:46:43 +0000, Kay Easton
| wrote:
|
| ...[do] US gardeners find the
| system a good indicator of whether a particular plant will survive?
|
| Well this born-and-brought-up-in-the-US Canadian gardener finds
| the zone indications very helpful. One can't take them as gospel,
| of course! But if something is zone 7 or colder, it's pretty sure
| to do okay in my garden, barring moisture-induced rot or some
| other idiosyncracy. Zone 8 is a bit of a gamble -- some Z8 plants
| are fine in my heavyish wet loam, others detest conditions. And
| Z9 or warmer is almost always a waste of time, though a few do
| "not badly".

Which, given that you are probably a nominal 8b or even a 9 if you
are in one of the milder parts, isn't a very different experience
from the one I describe in the FAQ.

| And, yes, I ignore my own rants on the subject and use the zone
| ratings for plants other than woody ones. Do as I say, not as I
| do -- or vice versa, depending on taste.
|
| Bear in mind that conditions here in the PacNW somewhat resemble
| those in Britain, though we have much drier, sunnier summers,
| with correspondingly wetter winters.

Except that Vancouver's humidity is lower than many parts of the
UK! Surprisingly, more rainfall often means lower humidity (by
"clearing the air").

| But zones aren't everything. I've found by sad experience that
| herbaceous material from Japan performs very poorly for me. It
| often rots away during the winter. The same material performs
| very well in the eastern US, a zone or two colder than we are
| here, but with drier winters and hotter, more humid summers.

Quite. That problem is one we know well :-(


Regards,
Nick Maclaren,
University of Cambridge Computing Service,
New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England.
Email:
Tel.: +44 1223 334761 Fax: +44 1223 334679

"Anne Middleton/Harold Walker" wrote in message
news:8Zv6a.247620$be.227729@rwcrnsc53...
Roger.......I find it difficult to talk meaningful "stuff" with many an
English gardener......their way or no way.....just like a visitor to my
place a couple of years ago that told me I knew nothing about cutting
grass.....he wanted to cut mine as short as he cuts his in the
UK......could
I get him to understand our reasons for keeping the grass a minimum height
of between 2 1/2 to 3 inches.....not on your life......hec, if I cut mine
to
English heights it would be burnt brown before the end of June unless I
poured about an inch of water per day on it.....his final answer was that
American grass must differ from English grass.......what
rubbish........HW..

I wish I could get that fact over to my son-in-law who is living in the
Boston area.
He complains that the grass keeps dying, but when I pointed out to him that
it
may be because he cuts it flush with the ground, he refused to consider
that.

Alan
--
Reply to alan(at)windsor-berks(dot)freeserve(dot)co(dot)uk

In article ,
Alan Holmes see sig for reply address wrote:

"Anne Middleton/Harold Walker" wrote in message
news:8Zv6a.247620$be.227729@rwcrnsc53...
Roger.......I find it difficult to talk meaningful "stuff" with many an
English gardener......their way or no way.....just like a visitor to my
place a couple of years ago that told me I knew nothing about cutting
grass.....he wanted to cut mine as short as he cuts his in the
UK......could
I get him to understand our reasons for keeping the grass a minimum height
of between 2 1/2 to 3 inches.....not on your life......hec, if I cut mine
to
English heights it would be burnt brown before the end of June unless I
poured about an inch of water per day on it.....his final answer was that
American grass must differ from English grass.......what
rubbish........HW..

I wish I could get that fact over to my son-in-law who is living in the
Boston area.
He complains that the grass keeps dying, but when I pointed out to him that
it
may be because he cuts it flush with the ground, he refused to consider
that.

You mean Boston, Mass., not Boston, Lincs, I assume? Not that it makes
much difference. In the summers we had up to a few years back, the
same applied in Cambridge.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren,
University of Cambridge Computing Service,
New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England.
Email:
Tel.: +44 1223 334761 Fax: +44 1223 334679