Alan Holmes wrote:

"Jane Ransom" wrote in message
...
In article , Roger Van Loon
writes
If you will check, you will see that all serious British books on
???***????
garden plants, in their recent editions, include the USDA zone
system in their plant descriptions.

They do??
The ones I have don't!!

Nor mine!
Alan

They must be totally out of date then.
Which ones? (I'm lways glad to learn).
The only one I have, without the zome system, is W.J. Bean's splendid
five-volume work "Trees and shrubs hardy in the British Isles". But I
think the last edition is some 10 years old...
Regards,
Roger.

Alan Holmes wrote:

(snip)

And it is not true that the zone system should only be valid for a
specific group of plants. How could it? It just gives the "average
annual minimum temperatures" for any spot in the world. Of course, it
is true that it was developed and first used for commercial crops in
the US.
I fully agree (as you will see, if you look at the first answer that
was given in this thread) that there are many other factors, which
also influence a plant's survival. But a serious gardener should be
aware of those factors, not close his mind to some of them.
But then, all this has been said before...

For some inexplicable reason you americans seem to overlook the
fact that we do not have 'Zones' we have 'weather'!

Alan

Sorry, Alan, I'm not American :-)
But - I wonder if you really think there's no zone difference between
the Isles of Scilly and the top of Ben Nevis... :-))

Regards,
Roger.

Wrong again Walker......well, half wrong.........just checked it
out......seems as tho there are palm trees in both Scotland and the
southwest of England.........HW.
See below////////
suspect that a number of plants can be grown in the South West of the
UK
that cannot be grown up in the north country.

We certainly do . . . like the fact that we can grow palm trees in the
north west of Scotland but not in the south east of
england!!!!!!!!////////////I thought it would be the other way
around....palm trees down in the Cornwall area but not in
Scotland.........HW.

--
Jane Ransom in Lancaster.
I won't respond to private emails that are on topic for urg
but if you need to email me for any other reason,
put jandg dot demon dot co dot uk where you see deadspam.com

In article , Anne
Middleton/Harold Walker writes

See below////////
suspect that a number of plants can be grown in the South West of the UK
that cannot be grown up in the north country.

We certainly do . . . like the fact that we can grow palm trees in the
north west of Scotland but not in the south east of
england!!!!!!!!////////////I thought it would be the other way
around....palm trees down in the Cornwall area but not in
Scotland.........HW.

In winter the temperature zones go roughly W to E - the W of the country
is warmer because of the gulf stream, so palms will survive the winter
on the W but not in the E.

Otoh, things which need a hot dry sunny summer won't grow in the N.
--
Kay Easton

Edward's earthworm page:
http://www.scarboro.demon.co.uk/garden/

In article , Roger Van Loon
writes

Sorry, Alan, I'm not American :-)
But - I wonder if you really think there's no zone difference between
the Isles of Scilly and the top of Ben Nevis... :-))

There's a latitude difference between the Scillies and Ben Nevis, an
altitude difference between the base of Ben Nevis and the summit, and
then there's weather, which means that on any particular day it is quite
possible for the hottest place in the British Isles to be in the N of
Scotland.

So that earlier this year, I was gardening in a t-shirt while those 200
miles south were complaining of ice and rain.
--
Kay Easton

Edward's earthworm page:
http://www.scarboro.demon.co.uk/garden/

Anne Middleton/Harold Walker wrote:

"Alan Holmes" alan@holmes-
For some inexplicable reason you americans seem to overlook the
fact that we do not have 'Zones' we have 'weather'!
Alan

You may not have "zones" but you surely have regional differences......I
suspect that a number of plants can be grown in the South West of the UK
that cannot be grown up in the north country.......zones/regions.......a
rose by any other name is still a rose......being a Yank intruding upon your
site, albeit a newcomer one, I could be very wrong.....to that I readily
admit.

The problem is that with the combination of Gulf stream and westerly
prevailing
winds you can get some incredibly anomolous warm spot microclimates.
There are
places on the Western coast of Scotland where hardy palm trees grow in
the
streets - eg Plockton (latitude 57.3 and which conveniently is online)

http://www.plockton.com/

That is even further north than Edmonton in Canada. In general yes as
you go
further north you get less winter sun and shorter summers. ISTR RHA does
a nice
map showing a graphical representation of it with week offsets of
planting and
flowering times from Wisley.

Maritime climates do not match USDA frost zones at all. The influence of
the
combination of surrounding seas and prevailing wind (or lack of it in
winter cold snaps)
absolutely dominate the UK weather. The Sunset climate codes for the
Pacific NW
can be useful but even they need taking with a pinch of salt.

By all means specify the minimum temperature that a plant can tolerate
for the
US market, but when that is not the main factor that determines the
plants survival
in a UK winter it is pretty misleading to do so here.

Some rare plants that are fully continental US frost hardy are amongst
the
hardest to grow in the UK because they need to be cold in winter but
will not
tolerate any humidity when they are dormant.

Regards,
Martin Brown

In article , Roger Van Loon
writes

They do??
The ones I have don't!!

Nor mine!

They must be totally out of date then.

Now, hang on a minute there.
Hold on to your horses.
What in hell's name do you mean by 'out of date'??
I never heard such a stupid, nonsensical expression when referring to
gardening books!!!!!!!!!!!
A plant which needed conditions x, y and z a couple of centuries ago,
still needs conditions x, y and z today!!!!!!
I regularly use my late father in law's book on pruning shrubs -
published in 1966 - never found one better. In fact some of the old
remedies are far better than modern stuff - much more environmentally
friendly.
I have two RHS books, one published 1999 and one 2000, several Hessayon
books all of which I find invaluable and not one of them so much as
mentions USDA hardiness zones. Why should they waste time and effort
writing stuff which is of no use to us? Incidentally, while at a garden
centre yesterday, I had a look at a few books - didn't find any
references to USDA hardiness zones.
I agree with other people in this thread - if our authors are now
including USDA hardiness zones in their books, it has absolutely nothing
to do with the relevance of that information to UK gardens but
everything to do with profits and markets for the publishers.
--
Jane Ransom in Lancaster.
I won't respond to private emails that are on topic for urg
but if you need to email me for any other reason,
put jandg dot demon dot co dot uk where you see deadspam.com

Jane Ransom wrote:

In article , Roger Van Loon
writes

They do??
The ones I have don't!!

Nor mine!

They must be totally out of date then.

Now, hang on a minute there.
Hold on to your horses.

I don't have any :-)

What in hell's name do you mean by 'out of date'??
I never heard such a stupid, nonsensical expression when referring to
gardening books!!!!!!!!!!!
A plant which needed conditions x, y and z a couple of centuries ago,
still needs conditions x, y and z today!!!!!!

Hope your own herd has not stampeded, and you're still holding on to
them :-))
I think we are talking here about the winter hardiness of plants, and
then I'm sure the basic info about a certain plant is only to be found
in authoritative plant encyclopedias and dictionaries (where else?)
But, sadly, those works are out of date after a relatively short time,
for several reasons.
First, the botanists think it necessary to regularly change the names:
they always find some reason (in fact I think it's mostly to let us
know how important they are themselves). I still have the old 1977
six-volume edition of the RHS "Dictionary of Gardening" (not so very
old after all), and it's amazing to see how relatively few of those
plant names are still valid at this moment. So, if you have the (now)
correct name of a plant, and you look it up in there, there's a good
chance you won't find it.
Secondly, new plants are being brought into cultivation all the time,
not to be found in those older works. (Just look at the list of new
Arisaema's).
Thirdly, I would not underestimate the value of new findings,
especially with hardier varieties of several species and hybrids being
introduced all the time. For example, Kadsura japonica and Bignonia
capreolata were not at all considered hardy some years ago, in fact
they have proved to be bone-hardy in my garden (no wonder, I see both
of them are now rated Z7 :-)))

I regularly use my late father in law's book on pruning shrubs -
published in 1966 - never found one better. In fact some of the old
remedies are far better than modern stuff - much more environmentally
friendly.
I have two RHS books, one published 1999 and one 2000, several Hessayon
books all of which I find invaluable and not one of them so much as
mentions USDA hardiness zones. Why should they waste time and effort
writing stuff which is of no use to us? Incidentally, while at a garden
centre yesterday, I had a look at a few books - didn't find any
references to USDA hardiness zones.

Mmm - were those serious plant encyclopedias, that is, authoritative
books that you would want to check, to learn about the growing
conditions and hardiness of special plants? (Not that I want to imply
other books can't be useful, in their own way)

I agree with other people in this thread - if our authors are now
including USDA hardiness zones in their books, it has absolutely nothing
to do with the relevance of that information to UK gardens but
everything to do with profits and markets for the publishers.

Of course, I'm sure that does play an important role, too.

--
Jane Ransom in Lancaster.

Roger Van Loon in Flanders.

--
Walk tall, walk straight, and look the world right into the eye.
You're welcome to visit my gardening page:
http://users.pandora.be/roger.van.loon/gardenp.htm

Kay Easton wrote:

In article , Roger Van Loon
writes

Sorry, Alan, I'm not American :-)
But - I wonder if you really think there's no zone difference between
the Isles of Scilly and the top of Ben Nevis... :-))

There's a latitude difference between the Scillies and Ben Nevis, an
altitude difference between the base of Ben Nevis and the summit, and
then there's weather, which means that on any particular day it is quite
possible for the hottest place in the British Isles to be in the N of
Scotland.

So that earlier this year, I was gardening in a t-shirt while those 200
miles south were complaining of ice and rain.
--
Kay Easton

I don't doubt any of that.
But as long as you can grow large-leaved tree Rhododendrons in
Cornwall and in the West of Scotland, and not in the rest of the UK,
you have different climatic zones.
Not so?
Regards,
Roger.

--
Walk tall, walk straight, and look the world right into the eye.

You're welcome to visit my gardening page:
http://users.pandora.be/roger.van.loon/gardenp.htm

In article , Roger Van Loon
writes
I think we are talking here about the winter hardiness of plants, and
then I'm sure the basic info about a certain plant is only to be found
in authoritative plant encyclopedias and dictionaries

I give up - we will just have to agree to differ.

I see no reason to publish USDA zones in books dealing with gardening in
the UK since the information they convey is incomplete, inaccurate and
therefore misleading in this context. You think the information is
essential.
Our opinions will never converge
--
Jane Ransom in Lancaster.
I won't respond to private emails that are on topic for urg
but if you need to email me for any other reason,
put jandg dot demon dot co dot uk where you see deadspam.com

In article , Roger Van Loon
writes
But as long as you can grow large-leaved tree Rhododendrons in
Cornwall and in the West of Scotland, and not in the rest of the UK,
you have different climatic zones.
Not so?

Absolutely - but they don't correspond to USDA hardiness ones!!!

--
Jane Ransom in Lancaster.
I won't respond to private emails that are on topic for urg
but if you need to email me for any other reason,
put jandg dot demon dot co dot uk where you see deadspam.com

In article , Roger Van Loon
writes
Kay Easton wrote:

In article , Roger Van Loon
writes

Sorry, Alan, I'm not American :-)
But - I wonder if you really think there's no zone difference between
the Isles of Scilly and the top of Ben Nevis... :-))

There's a latitude difference between the Scillies and Ben Nevis, an
altitude difference between the base of Ben Nevis and the summit, and
then there's weather, which means that on any particular day it is quite
possible for the hottest place in the British Isles to be in the N of
Scotland.

So that earlier this year, I was gardening in a t-shirt while those 200
miles south were complaining of ice and rain.
--
Kay Easton

I don't doubt any of that.
But as long as you can grow large-leaved tree Rhododendrons in
Cornwall and in the West of Scotland, and not in the rest of the UK,
you have different climatic zones.
Not so?
Regards,
Roger.

Not necessarily so. Zones are arbitrary divisions are they not? So
whether you have separate climatic zones depends on how fine you make
your divisions.

And the UK with its short winter day length and cold wet winters doesn't
fit happily into the UK zones.
--
Kay Easton

Edward's earthworm page:
http://www.scarboro.demon.co.uk/garden/

Jane Ransom wrote:

In article , Roger Van Loon
writes
But as long as you can grow large-leaved tree Rhododendrons in
Cornwall and in the West of Scotland, and not in the rest of the UK,
you have different climatic zones.
Not so?

Absolutely - but they don't correspond to USDA hardiness ones!!!

Well - did I say so?
In this string of messages, I just reacted against Alan's saying
""you americans seem to overlook the fact that we do not have 'Zones'
we have 'weather'""
Remember? :-)

But, on the other hand - as has been said repeatedly -
The 'USDA' zones are just numbers and lines to indicate the average
minimum winter temperatures, over many years, for a certain place,
and, as such, the system is valid for every spot on the earth. How can
there be a place, anywhere, that does not "correspond" to that?
Which does not mean (sigh, again) that a plant that grows in Z8 in the
Mojave desert (yes, there are such places) wil grow without problems
in Lancaster. (Opuntias will certainly need protection from winter wet
etc.) I would suggest, once more, to re-read the first answer that was
given in this thread.
But, Jane, if you think that the average minimum winter temperature is
of no importance whatever, for your garden, then I too say: ""I give
up - we will just have to agree to differ"".

One last thing, though. As soon as you and the British gardeners come
up with a better winter hardiness system (even if only for the UK),
I'm sure it will be a howling success. Why haven't you? If you haven't
found one - why complain?
For example, when I look in my "Encyclopedia of Rhododendron hybrids"
by Cox (very good work, by the way) I see that he doesn't use the USDA
system; no - he just gives a minimum temperature that (he thinks) a
certain plant will survive ("Albatross = 0 F/ -18 C", for example). If
anything, I find that less useful than the USDA system: as has been
said here repeatedly, a one night freeze does not mean everything, if
you don't look at other factors. Before that, there was the H1 / H4
system - also abandoned, apparently.

Anyhow, best of luck with your garden, Jane. I just wonder, if you
order things and seeds from all over the world (as I do), how you
decide whether or not they are worth trying outside where you are -
without the zone system.
Regards,
Roger.

--
Walk tall, walk straight, and look the world right into the eye.

You're welcome to visit my gardening page:
http://users.pandora.be/roger.van.loon/gardenp.htm

Roger.......I find it difficult to talk meaningful "stuff" with many an
English gardener......their way or no way.....just like a visitor to my
place a couple of years ago that told me I knew nothing about cutting
grass.....he wanted to cut mine as short as he cuts his in the UK......could
I get him to understand our reasons for keeping the grass a minimum height
of between 2 1/2 to 3 inches.....not on your life......hec, if I cut mine to
English heights it would be burnt brown before the end of June unless I
poured about an inch of water per day on it.....his final answer was that
American grass must differ from English grass.......what rubbish........HW..
"Roger Van Loon" wrote in message
...
Jane Ransom wrote:

In article , Roger Van Loon
writes
But as long as you can grow large-leaved tree Rhododendrons in
Cornwall and in the West of Scotland, and not in the rest of the UK,
you have different climatic zones.
Not so?

Absolutely - but they don't correspond to USDA hardiness ones!!!

Well - did I say so?
In this string of messages, I just reacted against Alan's saying
""you americans seem to overlook the fact that we do not have 'Zones'
we have 'weather'""
Remember? :-)

But, on the other hand - as has been said repeatedly -
The 'USDA' zones are just numbers and lines to indicate the average
minimum winter temperatures, over many years, for a certain place,
and, as such, the system is valid for every spot on the earth. How can
there be a place, anywhere, that does not "correspond" to that?
Which does not mean (sigh, again) that a plant that grows in Z8 in the
Mojave desert (yes, there are such places) wil grow without problems
in Lancaster. (Opuntias will certainly need protection from winter wet
etc.) I would suggest, once more, to re-read the first answer that was
given in this thread.
But, Jane, if you think that the average minimum winter temperature is
of no importance whatever, for your garden, then I too say: ""I give
up - we will just have to agree to differ"".

One last thing, though. As soon as you and the British gardeners come
up with a better winter hardiness system (even if only for the UK),
I'm sure it will be a howling success. Why haven't you? If you haven't
found one - why complain?
For example, when I look in my "Encyclopedia of Rhododendron hybrids"
by Cox (very good work, by the way) I see that he doesn't use the USDA
system; no - he just gives a minimum temperature that (he thinks) a
certain plant will survive ("Albatross = 0 F/ -18 C", for example). If
anything, I find that less useful than the USDA system: as has been
said here repeatedly, a one night freeze does not mean everything, if
you don't look at other factors. Before that, there was the H1 / H4
system - also abandoned, apparently.

Anyhow, best of luck with your garden, Jane. I just wonder, if you
order things and seeds from all over the world (as I do), how you
decide whether or not they are worth trying outside where you are -
without the zone system.
Regards,
Roger.

--
Walk tall, walk straight, and look the world right into the eye.

You're welcome to visit my gardening page:
http://users.pandora.be/roger.van.loon/gardenp.htm

Kay Easton wrote:

In article , Roger Van Loon
writes
Kay Easton wrote:

In article , Roger Van Loon
writes

Sorry, Alan, I'm not American :-)
But - I wonder if you really think there's no zone difference between
the Isles of Scilly and the top of Ben Nevis... :-))

There's a latitude difference between the Scillies and Ben Nevis, an
altitude difference between the base of Ben Nevis and the summit, and
then there's weather, which means that on any particular day it is quite
possible for the hottest place in the British Isles to be in the N of
Scotland.

So that earlier this year, I was gardening in a t-shirt while those 200
miles south were complaining of ice and rain.
--
Kay Easton

I don't doubt any of that.
But as long as you can grow large-leaved tree Rhododendrons in
Cornwall and in the West of Scotland, and not in the rest of the UK,
you have different climatic zones.
Not so?
Regards,
Roger.

Not necessarily so. Zones are arbitrary divisions are they not? So
whether you have separate climatic zones depends on how fine you make
your divisions.

OK, you are right, of course. Depending upon "how fine you make your
divisions", the whole of the UK (or Europe, or the whole northern
hemisphere) can be one climatic zone :-)
(not an USDA zone of course)

And the UK with its short winter day length and cold wet winters doesn't
fit happily into the UK zones.

I suppose by that last you mean "the USDA zones". Then, it's not a
question of fitting (happily or unhappily). It's just a question of
temperatures and statistics: they show what zone you are in, the whole
world over. Day length or wetness don't have anything to do with
that system :-))
You could just as well state that the US, with their continental
climate, don't fit well into their zone system :-)))
Of course (sigh) for the winter survival of plants there are also
other factors involved...

Regards,
Roger.

--
Walk tall, walk straight, and look the world right into the eye.

You're welcome to visit my gardening page:
http://users.pandora.be/roger.van.loon/gardenp.htm