On 10/5/05 22:03, in article
, "Phil L"
wrote:

Sacha wrote:
:: On 10/5/05 19:15, in article
:: , "Phil L"
:: wrote:
::
:: snip
::: from what I can gather these PBR's are nothing
::: more than a type of 'copyright' on a certain plant, this can do
::: no more than stop a rival comercial grower from reproducing them,
::: it cannot stop individuals from doing what they want.
::: ever.
:::
::
:: "from what I can gather" is not a good premise on which to advise
:: other people on a potential legal question.

OK, what I should have said is, "go ahead and do what you like, no one has
ever been prosecuted in the UK for infringing these PBR's"

Wake up and smell the coffee Sacha! - imagine if the OP is at her Charity
sale and the owner of the PBR *himself* walks past (the one person out of 60
million in the UK) what is he to do?
snip
I clearly said that I doubted anyone would worry about a few plants at a
charity sale BUT that if you intended to make yourself a business out of
someone else's property, you could be in trouble. If you have reading and
comprehension difficulties I'm afraid that's not my problem.
--

Sacha
(remove the weeds for email)

In article . 10,
Victoria Clare wrote:

Now I think about it, I think the 'winged monkey' protected strawberry was
also described as an old French variety.

Surely it can't be a traditional variety and a protected genetic variant
???

That is precisely what I was referring to as bogus claims. There is
(in general) no law in the UK against false advertising, false claims
of legal constraints and so on. And it is a hell of a lot cheaper to
make such claims than it is to do the work to justify them!

For example, "shrink-wrap licences", most of the Web pages that say
"By clicking on the button, you accept ..." are void in law. There
is no valid contract, and therefore no licence. But there is no
law against making a claim that there is, and precious little against
actually persecuting you on bogus grounds.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Phil L wrote:
You have to be a qualified electrician to do electrical work and be a member
of 'FENSA' to replace glass...it's going the same way as plumbing....

You don't, in most domestic cases. What about greenhouses?

it's all safety and who can argue against that?

There are lots of arguments against over- or inappropriate regulation.

Janet Baraclough wrote:
:: The message
:: from "Phil L" contains these words:
::
::: Janet Baraclough wrote:
::::: The message
::::: from "Phil L" contains these words:
:::::
:::::
:::::: Err..I'm fairly new here and haven't got a clue what plant
:::::: breeders rights are,
:::::
::::: We noticed. Why advise others on a subject you haven't a clue
::::: about?
::
::: Is that the Royal 'we'?....
::
:: No, it's the plural "we" . Several people other than myself
:: noticed your cluelessness in this thread, concerning PBR, glazing
:: and electrical regulations, and corrected your wrong information.
::

Not wrong information at all, the man in the street cannot glaze windows nor
install any electric sockets etc unless he is 'trained' to do so and covered
by various bits of legal claptrap....if you pay the government the asking
price, you can get all kinds of everyday stuff outlawed, hence the 'jobs for
the boys' jibe.

::: from what I can gather these PBR's are nothing
::: more than a type of 'copyright' on a certain plant, this can do
::: no more than stop a rival comercial grower from reproducing them,
::: it cannot stop individuals from doing what they want.
::: ever.
::
:: PBR legislation applies equally to individuals who propagate for
:: commercial use without a licence.
::

I have not said otherwise, only that nothing will happen if she (the OP)
does - try reading the OP - she asked for opinions on whether she would be
in trouble, not legal advice - that would have been sent to uk.legal and not
a gardening group - opinions - IE 'has anyone ever heard of anyone getting
dusted?', my answer is a resounding NO! and I've yet to hear from anyone in
here that they have heard of it happening either.


--
If God had intended us to drink beer, He would have given us stomachs.

Mike Lyle wrote:
:: Phil L wrote:
::: Mike Lyle wrote:
:: [...]
:::::: You have to be a qualified electrician to do electrical work
:::::: and be a member of 'FENSA' to replace glass...
:::::
::::: Where? Since when? By whose rules?
:::::
:::
::: In the UK. since April 2002. Building regulations.
::: http://www.fensa.co.uk/homeowners.html
::
:: Others have commented already, but here's my twopennnorth.
::
:: There's nothing new about Building Regs. I've looked at the site,
:: and I can certainly replace a pane of glass myself without being a
:: member of anything. What's involved here is _replacement
:: installation_, not repair. Replacement windows and doors have to
:: meet new requirements, that's all: and that's a very good thing. A
:: sample from the site:
::
:: Where a window or windows is/are completely replaced (as opposed
:: to repaired) in existing dwellings, they must comply with Approved
:: Documents Parts L1 and N (safety in relation to impact).
::

It's not just replacement windows (IE frames) it's glazing in general, the
actual frames are never going to fall out and kill someone, but if you
install ordinary glass (as opposed to toughened) below a certain height and
someone falls into it and cuts themselves or worse, you can go to jail,
unless of course you are a member of FENSA, pretty much like the members of
CORGI, they are covered, both insurance wise and from those above who carry
out 'investigations'.


:: And you don't have to be a qualified electrician to do electrical
:: work. You have to meet the regs, that's all. It's been true all my
:: life, give or take a detail or two.
::
:: It seems the FENSA thing is just a hassle-saving measure you should
:: approve of: as I read it, some installers will be allowed to
:: self-certify instead of waiting for Building Control to come out
:: and check.

What I'm saying is that these pieces of legislation are in place for no
other reason than to line the pockets of those who pushed to get them
introduced.


::
:: On music copyright, no, it isn't just a free-for-all: there are
:: rules, and everybody in the business knows them.
::

But the general public just download whatever music they like without fear
of the law.


--
If God had intended us to drink beer, He would have given us stomachs.

Phil L wrote:
You have to be a qualified electrician to do electrical work and be a
member
of 'FENSA' to replace glass...it's going the same way as plumbing....

You don't need to be in anything to replace glass. But if you replace a
whole window you either need FENSA or a building control application.

Phil L wrote:
[...]
Not wrong information at all, the man in the street cannot glaze
windows nor install any electric sockets etc unless he is 'trained'
to do so and covered by various bits of legal claptrap....if you
pay
the government the asking price, you can get all kinds of everyday
stuff outlawed, hence the 'jobs for the boys' jibe.

I don't quite understand why you keep saying this. The man in the
street is in no way restrained from glazing his own windows, or
installing his own electrics. He can also rip out all his windows and
doors and fit entirely new ones if he wants to; but he has to comply
with Building Regs, and, apart from anything else, may have trouble
getting a purchaser's surveyor to OK the house if he doesn't. That
isn't new. An authorised professional window fitter can self-certify
his materials and installation, thus saving everybody time and
money -- that's the reverse of "jobs for the boys", though I don't
personally trust it.

from what I can gather these PBR's are nothing
more than a type of 'copyright' on a certain plant, this can do
no more than stop a rival comercial grower from reproducing
them,
it cannot stop individuals from doing what they want.
ever.

PBR legislation applies equally to individuals who propagate
for
commercial use without a licence.


I have not said otherwise, only that nothing will happen if she
(the
OP) does - try reading the OP - she asked for opinions on whether
she
would be in trouble, not legal advice - that would have been sent
to
uk.legal and not a gardening group - opinions - IE 'has anyone ever
heard of anyone getting dusted?', my answer is a resounding NO! and
I've yet to hear from anyone in here that they have heard of it
happening either.

But everybody with an opinion on it has been agreeing with you, very
clearly, in the case of the OP's small-scale charitable project.
They -- we -- also went on to describe circumstances in which a
breeder would, and in one case did, invoke his or her legal rights
(nothing to do with the Police or "busting", by the way: this is
Civil Law).

You're not one of those rare people who finds being agreed with just
as distasteful as being disagreed with, I hope. I find them very
difficult to talk to.

--
Mike.

Phil L wrote:
Mike Lyle wrote:
Phil L wrote:
Mike Lyle wrote:
[...]
You have to be a qualified electrician to do electrical work
and be a member of 'FENSA' to replace glass...

Where? Since when? By whose rules?


In the UK. since April 2002. Building regulations.
http://www.fensa.co.uk/homeowners.html

Others have commented already, but here's my twopennnorth.

There's nothing new about Building Regs. I've looked at the site,
and I can certainly replace a pane of glass myself without being
a
member of anything. What's involved here is _replacement
installation_, not repair. Replacement windows and doors have to
meet new requirements, that's all: and that's a very good thing.
A
sample from the site:

Where a window or windows is/are completely replaced (as opposed
to repaired) in existing dwellings, they must comply with
Approved
Documents Parts L1 and N (safety in relation to impact).


It's not just replacement windows (IE frames) it's glazing in
general, the actual frames are never going to fall out and kill
someone, but if you install ordinary glass (as opposed to
toughened)
below a certain height and someone falls into it and cuts
themselves
or worse, you can go to jail, unless of course you are a member of
FENSA, pretty much like the members of CORGI, they are covered,
both
insurance wise and from those above who carry out 'investigations'.

Sorry: didn't see this before posting my last. No, I can't
necessarily go to jail for it: nobody mentioned the criminal law. I
can be sued, of course, and serve me right; but that costs money, not
liberty.


And you don't have to be a qualified electrician to do electrical
work. You have to meet the regs, that's all. It's been true all
my
life, give or take a detail or two.

It seems the FENSA thing is just a hassle-saving measure you
should
approve of: as I read it, some installers will be allowed to
self-certify instead of waiting for Building Control to come out
and check.

What I'm saying is that these pieces of legislation are in place
for
no other reason than to line the pockets of those who pushed to get
them introduced.

I see no pocket-lining mechanism here. If anything, it may be a
tax-saving measure by reducing the need for building inspectors; so I
suppose it lines your pockets and mine a little bit.

On music copyright, no, it isn't just a free-for-all: there are
rules, and everybody in the business knows them.


But the general public just download whatever music they like
without
fear of the law.

No doubt, and the industry doesn't like it. But start selling pirate
discs on a market stall, and things may get more exciting.

--
Mike.

In article , Sacha
writes
snip
We could argue this 'til the cows come home and I'm not prepared to bore us
all with that. I'll content myself with saying to the OP that selling a few
PBR protected plants for charity almost certainly won't upset anyone but
making your own sideline business out of someone else's PBR protected plants
almost certainly would.

I think you're both agreed on that. But what Nick seems to be saying is
that just because someone has illicitly propagated and sold 1000 plants
doesn't mean to say you have lost 1000 sales. Not all of those who
bought the 1000 plants would otherwise have approached you, by mail
order or otherwise.

You could argue that you have lost 1000 'royalties' ... except that, had
the other guy been licensed, he'd probably have had to sell the plants
at a higher price to cover that, and so may only have sold 850 of them,
not 1000 ;-)


--
Kay
"Do not insult the crocodile until you have crossed the river"

"Phil L" wrote in message
k...
Janet Baraclough wrote:
:: The message
:: from "Phil L" contains these words:
::
::: Janet Baraclough wrote:
::::: The message
::::: from "Phil L" contains these words:
:::::
:::::
:::::: Err..I'm fairly new here and haven't got a clue what plant
:::::: breeders rights are,
:::::
::::: We noticed. Why advise others on a subject you haven't a clue
::::: about?
::
::: Is that the Royal 'we'?....
::
:: No, it's the plural "we" . Several people other than myself
:: noticed your cluelessness in this thread, concerning PBR, glazing
:: and electrical regulations, and corrected your wrong information.
::

Not wrong information at all, the man in the street cannot glaze windows
nor
install any electric sockets etc unless he is 'trained' to do so and
covered
by various bits of legal claptrap....if you pay the government the asking
price, you can get all kinds of everyday stuff outlawed, hence the 'jobs
for
the boys' jibe.

I've done both of those, in two houses, together with building a brick
garage and altering the house.

When can I expect to go to prison?

--
alan

reply to alan(dot)holmes27(at)virgin(dot)net

"Mike Lyle" wrote in message
...
Tumbleweed wrote:
"Mike Lyle" wrote in message
...
snip

there's nothing new about Building Regs. I've looked at the site,
and
I can certainly replace a pane of glass myself without being a
member
of anything. What's involved here is _replacement installation_,
not
repair. Replacement windows and doors have to meet new
requirements,
that's all: and that's a very good thing. A sample from the site:

Where a window or windows is/are completely replaced (as opposed
to
repaired) in existing dwellings, they must comply with Approved
Documents Parts L1 and N (safety in relation to impact).

And you don't have to be a qualified electrician to do electrical
work. You have to meet the regs, that's all. It's been true all my
life, give or take a detail or two.


Whats the site? I've just replaced a number of internal doors,
would
be interesting to see what regs apply to a door! I wonder if a
door
purchased from a DIY store would anyway meet the regs? And how
would
someone buying my house in say 5 years time know if they had been
replaced/met the regs?

The site is:
http://www.fensa.co.uk/faq.html#1

I can't imagine what relevance it might have to _interior_ doors.
Well, I suppose there must be something to stop idiots using ordinary
glass at child height in interior doors, but you wouldn't have done
that.

I don't know when you last sold a house, but these days purchasers'
surveyors are extremely picky and own-arse-covering (I bear the
psychological scars a year later!) It helps a lot if you've got
evidence of Building Regs approval, too; a certificate from a FENSA
member is apparently equivalent.

But in an old house how would anyone know if the fittings were not
original, and who would keep builders bills from 20 or 30 years ago?

--
alan

reply to alan(dot)holmes27(at)virgin(dot)net

"Phil L" wrote in message
k...
Janet Baraclough wrote:
:: The message
:: from "Phil L" contains these words:
::
::: Janet Baraclough wrote:
::::: The message
::::: from "Phil L" contains these words:
:::::
:::::
:::::: Err..I'm fairly new here and haven't got a clue what plant
:::::: breeders rights are,
:::::
::::: We noticed. Why advise others on a subject you haven't a clue
::::: about?
::
::: Is that the Royal 'we'?....
::
:: No, it's the plural "we" . Several people other than myself
:: noticed your cluelessness in this thread, concerning PBR, glazing
:: and electrical regulations, and corrected your wrong information.
::

Not wrong information at all, the man in the street cannot glaze windows
nor
install any electric sockets etc unless he is 'trained' to do so and
covered
by various bits of legal claptrap....if you pay the government the asking
price, you can get all kinds of everyday stuff outlawed, hence the 'jobs
for
the boys' jibe.

I've done both of those, in two houses, together with building a brick
garage and altering the house.

When can I expect to go to prison?

--
alan

reply to alan(dot)holmes27(at)virgin(dot)net

"Mike Lyle" wrote in message
...
Tumbleweed wrote:
"Mike Lyle" wrote in message
...
snip

there's nothing new about Building Regs. I've looked at the site,
and
I can certainly replace a pane of glass myself without being a
member
of anything. What's involved here is _replacement installation_,
not
repair. Replacement windows and doors have to meet new
requirements,
that's all: and that's a very good thing. A sample from the site:

Where a window or windows is/are completely replaced (as opposed
to
repaired) in existing dwellings, they must comply with Approved
Documents Parts L1 and N (safety in relation to impact).

And you don't have to be a qualified electrician to do electrical
work. You have to meet the regs, that's all. It's been true all my
life, give or take a detail or two.


Whats the site? I've just replaced a number of internal doors,
would
be interesting to see what regs apply to a door! I wonder if a
door
purchased from a DIY store would anyway meet the regs? And how
would
someone buying my house in say 5 years time know if they had been
replaced/met the regs?

The site is:
http://www.fensa.co.uk/faq.html#1

I can't imagine what relevance it might have to _interior_ doors.
Well, I suppose there must be something to stop idiots using ordinary
glass at child height in interior doors, but you wouldn't have done
that.

I don't know when you last sold a house, but these days purchasers'
surveyors are extremely picky and own-arse-covering (I bear the
psychological scars a year later!) It helps a lot if you've got
evidence of Building Regs approval, too; a certificate from a FENSA
member is apparently equivalent.

But in an old house how would anyone know if the fittings were not
original, and who would keep builders bills from 20 or 30 years ago?

--
alan

reply to alan(dot)holmes27(at)virgin(dot)net

Alan Holmes wrote:
"Mike Lyle" wrote in [...]
I can't imagine what relevance it might have to _interior_ doors.
Well, I suppose there must be something to stop idiots using
ordinary
glass at child height in interior doors, but you wouldn't have
done
that.

I don't know when you last sold a house, but these days
purchasers'
surveyors are extremely picky and own-arse-covering (I bear the
psychological scars a year later!) It helps a lot if you've got
evidence of Building Regs approval, too; a certificate from a
FENSA
member is apparently equivalent.

But in an old house how would anyone know if the fittings were not
original, and who would keep builders bills from 20 or 30 years
ago?

Well, I suppose a professional surveyor could sometimes tell, and
sometimes not tell -- I quite strongly suspect he'd get it right more
often than not (in a really old house it would usually be obvious to
anybody, of course). It's not so much the builder's bills as the
Building Regs evidence; but it would be rash to not to keep the
bills, as you might want to make a claim.

But having just sold a partly-new and partly-old house under the new
rules, I very strongly urge everybody to take these things seriously.
I lost my first potential purchaser because of an over-cautious
surveyor's report: thank Heaven, the next offer came from people
whose surveyor expressed himself differently though describing the
same things.

--
Mike.