In article , w.g.s.hamm
writes

"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...
The message
from MM contains these words:


If modern humans were transported briefly back to Victorian London,
their sojourn would indeed be brief as many would succumb straightaway
to the ordinary everyday noxious substances that hardy workers of the
day had got used to from birth.

Victorian Londoners' soujourn was also pitifully brief. IIRC, average
life expectancy was around 40. This was partly due to the extremely high
rate of death among children. It's ludicrous to suggest Victorian
Londoners enjoyed a higher standard of health or better survival rates.
You have only to look at poor countries' Victorian-London levels of
life-expectancy in adults and high infant death rate, to see that people
there have not acquired the hardiness you claim used to exist here.

It's true that the incidence of allergies, implying over-reacting
immune systems, has risen sharply in the last 50 years, but mistaken to
blame that on higher standards of hygeine by ultra- fussy parents.
It's just as likely that modern immune-systems are weakened by the
overload of chemicals, radiation etc we are exposed to in every aspect
of western life.
I wasn't making an implication but giving anecdotal evidence as supplied by
scientists who have indeed found that children growing up on ultra clean
homes seem to have more breathing, sinus and glue ear type problems.

Ah so you've found some stories to fit a pet opinion, hardly conclusive
is it?


--
David

In article ,
Janet Baraclough writes:
| The message
| from "w.g.s.hamm" contains these words:
|
| I wasn't making an implication but giving anecdotal evidence as supplied by
| scientists who have indeed found that children growing up on ultra clean
| homes seem to have more breathing, sinus and glue ear type problems.
|
| "Anecdotal evidence" supplied by scientists, or the number 9 bus
| queue, is not peer-accredited research, let alone proof of your theory.

I have seen references to proper analyses in medical journals.
As I understand it, the situation is as I posted before - i.e.
it seems that this is a significant factor, but beyond that all
is confusion.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On Thu, 7 Apr 2005 18:46:10 +0000 (UTC), "Duncan"
wrote:


"MM" wrote in message
.. .


I absolutely agree with this. Today's townie kids' immune systems are
shot to pieces because the kids never get their peck of dirt while
growing up. When do you see kids playing outside in the fields
nowadays? Everyone is scared of 'stranger danger'. If they do go out
of doors away from the telly or computer game, they just ride their
bikes around. Where's the cowboys and injuns, the lying on the ground
playing fives, that kind of thing? Kids (and adults) have little
contact with the natural world, then suddenly, panic, as 'bird flu'
strikes.

If modern humans were transported briefly back to Victorian London,
their sojourn would indeed be brief as many would succumb straightaway
to the ordinary everyday noxious substances that hardy workers of the
day had got used to from birth.

MM

The hardy ones who had survived diphtheria, scarlet fever, whooping cough,
polio, measles, smallpox, cholera and typhoid, that is!

Indeed.

MM

"MM" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 7 Apr 2005 18:46:10 +0000 (UTC), "Duncan"
wrote:


"MM" wrote in message
. ..


I absolutely agree with this. Today's townie kids' immune systems are
shot to pieces because the kids never get their peck of dirt while
growing up. When do you see kids playing outside in the fields
nowadays? Everyone is scared of 'stranger danger'. If they do go out
of doors away from the telly or computer game, they just ride their
bikes around. Where's the cowboys and injuns, the lying on the ground
playing fives, that kind of thing? Kids (and adults) have little
contact with the natural world, then suddenly, panic, as 'bird flu'
strikes.

If modern humans were transported briefly back to Victorian London,
their sojourn would indeed be brief as many would succumb straightaway
to the ordinary everyday noxious substances that hardy workers of the
day had got used to from birth.

MM

The hardy ones who had survived diphtheria, scarlet fever, whooping cough,
polio, measles, smallpox, cholera and typhoid, that is!

Indeed.



....and lucky, eg they may just not have come in contact with all the above.
Plus, dont forget the fact that the diseases have undoubtedly mutated over
the years, survival of the fittest applies to the pathogens as much as their
hosts. And in that case, it means, pathogens that take longer, or even
indefinitely, to kill their host.

--
Tumbleweed

email replies not necessary but to contact use;
tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com

On Fri, 8 Apr 2005 19:31:00 +0100, "Tumbleweed"
wrote:


"MM" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 7 Apr 2005 18:46:10 +0000 (UTC), "Duncan"
wrote:


"MM" wrote in message
...


I absolutely agree with this. Today's townie kids' immune systems are
shot to pieces because the kids never get their peck of dirt while
growing up. When do you see kids playing outside in the fields
nowadays? Everyone is scared of 'stranger danger'. If they do go out
of doors away from the telly or computer game, they just ride their
bikes around. Where's the cowboys and injuns, the lying on the ground
playing fives, that kind of thing? Kids (and adults) have little
contact with the natural world, then suddenly, panic, as 'bird flu'
strikes.

If modern humans were transported briefly back to Victorian London,
their sojourn would indeed be brief as many would succumb straightaway
to the ordinary everyday noxious substances that hardy workers of the
day had got used to from birth.

MM

The hardy ones who had survived diphtheria, scarlet fever, whooping cough,
polio, measles, smallpox, cholera and typhoid, that is!

Indeed.



...and lucky, eg they may just not have come in contact with all the above.
Plus, dont forget the fact that the diseases have undoubtedly mutated over
the years, survival of the fittest applies to the pathogens as much as their
hosts. And in that case, it means, pathogens that take longer, or even
indefinitely, to kill their host.

Luck always comes into survival of the fittest. Often it isn't the
fittest, but the luckiest who survive. But how many relatively minor
wounds became gangrenous and eventually killed the host because basic
first aid wasn't carried out, like washing and bandaging? On the other
hand, we have true stories of farm workers carrying their severed arms
to a doctor after being crushed by a tractor or combine, and they live
to tell the tale.

MM

Luck always comes into survival of the fittest. Often it isn't the
fittest, but the luckiest who survive. But how many relatively minor
wounds became gangrenous and eventually killed the host because basic
first aid wasn't carried out, like washing and bandaging? On the other
hand, we have true stories of farm workers carrying their severed arms
to a doctor after being crushed by a tractor or combine, and they live
to tell the tale.

MM

Or being a 15 year old and having your arm, (and a bit of the surf board),
bitten off by a Shark and to lay on the surf board and paddle back to the
shore using her other arm!!

Mike

"MM" wrote in message
...

Luck always comes into survival of the fittest. Often it isn't the
fittest, but the luckiest who survive. But how many relatively minor
wounds became gangrenous and eventually killed the host because basic
first aid wasn't carried out, like washing and bandaging? On the other
hand, we have true stories of farm workers carrying their severed arms
to a doctor after being crushed by a tractor or combine, and they live
to tell the tale.

MM

I think you'll find its a severed arm, not arms. Both arms severed, you cant
carry 'em.
Try it and you'll see what I mean :-)

--
Tumbleweed

email replies not necessary but to contact use;
tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com

I think you'll find its a severed arm, not arms. Both arms severed, you
cant
carry 'em.
Try it and you'll see what I mean :-)

--
Plural farmworkers as opposed to plural arms with one farm worker ;-))

On Sat, 9 Apr 2005 11:51:30 +0000 (UTC), "Mike" wrote:


Luck always comes into survival of the fittest. Often it isn't the
fittest, but the luckiest who survive. But how many relatively minor
wounds became gangrenous and eventually killed the host because basic
first aid wasn't carried out, like washing and bandaging? On the other
hand, we have true stories of farm workers carrying their severed arms
to a doctor after being crushed by a tractor or combine, and they live
to tell the tale.

MM

Or being a 15 year old and having your arm, (and a bit of the surf board),
bitten off by a Shark and to lay on the surf board and paddle back to the
shore using her other arm!!

Strewth!

MM

On Sat, 9 Apr 2005 13:49:49 +0100, "Tumbleweed"
wrote:


"MM" wrote in message
.. .

Luck always comes into survival of the fittest. Often it isn't the
fittest, but the luckiest who survive. But how many relatively minor
wounds became gangrenous and eventually killed the host because basic
first aid wasn't carried out, like washing and bandaging? On the other
hand, we have true stories of farm workers carrying their severed arms
to a doctor after being crushed by a tractor or combine, and they live
to tell the tale.

MM

I think you'll find its a severed arm, not arms. Both arms severed, you cant
carry 'em.
Try it and you'll see what I mean :-)

The Two Ronnies are reprising their act at the moment. Give 'em a
ring!

MM

In message , Tumbleweed
writes

"MM" wrote in message
.. .

Luck always comes into survival of the fittest. Often it isn't the
fittest, but the luckiest who survive. But how many relatively minor
wounds became gangrenous and eventually killed the host because basic
first aid wasn't carried out, like washing and bandaging? On the other
hand, we have true stories of farm workers carrying their severed arms
to a doctor after being crushed by a tractor or combine, and they live
to tell the tale.

MM

I think you'll find its a severed arm, not arms. Both arms severed, you cant
carry 'em.
Try it and you'll see what I mean :-)

ROTFL
--
hugh
Reply to address is valid at the time of posting

"Tumbleweed" wrote in message
...

"MM" wrote in message
...

Luck always comes into survival of the fittest. Often it isn't the
fittest, but the luckiest who survive. But how many relatively minor
wounds became gangrenous and eventually killed the host because basic
first aid wasn't carried out, like washing and bandaging? On the other
hand, we have true stories of farm workers carrying their severed arms
to a doctor after being crushed by a tractor or combine, and they live
to tell the tale.

MM

I think you'll find its a severed arm, not arms. Both arms severed, you
cant
carry 'em.
Try it and you'll see what I mean :-)

Tsk in the olden days the farm worker would have picked both up in his
teeth, while smoking 80 fags a day and walked 30 miles to the doctor only
after finishing a 18 hour day threshing corn with his severed arms.
Nowadays yer don't know yer born.
I never could understand what that was supposed to mean :-)

On Sat, 9 Apr 2005 23:13:44 +0100, "w.g.s.hamm"
wrote:


"Tumbleweed" wrote in message
...

"MM" wrote in message
...

Luck always comes into survival of the fittest. Often it isn't the
fittest, but the luckiest who survive. But how many relatively minor
wounds became gangrenous and eventually killed the host because basic
first aid wasn't carried out, like washing and bandaging? On the other
hand, we have true stories of farm workers carrying their severed arms
to a doctor after being crushed by a tractor or combine, and they live
to tell the tale.

MM

I think you'll find its a severed arm, not arms. Both arms severed, you
cant
carry 'em.
Try it and you'll see what I mean :-)

Tsk in the olden days the farm worker would have picked both up in his
teeth, while smoking 80 fags a day and walked 30 miles to the doctor only
after finishing a 18 hour day threshing corn with his severed arms.
Nowadays yer don't know yer born.
I never could understand what that was supposed to mean :-)

No, but with these increasing intrusions on privacy in the womb, where
we see the little mites growing up almost from the point where they
resemble chickens, embryos will be made to feel responsible for their
environment. Expect future Neo Labour governments to apply ASBOs
(inserted by test tube, naturally) if too much kicking is observed.
What must those poor nurses on materity wards think, what with all the
ultrasound piccies they're forced to watch, day in, day out.

MM

"MM" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 9 Apr 2005 23:13:44 +0100, "w.g.s.hamm"
wrote:


"Tumbleweed" wrote in message
...

"MM" wrote in message
...

Luck always comes into survival of the fittest. Often it isn't the
fittest, but the luckiest who survive. But how many relatively minor
wounds became gangrenous and eventually killed the host because basic
first aid wasn't carried out, like washing and bandaging? On the
other
hand, we have true stories of farm workers carrying their severed
arms
to a doctor after being crushed by a tractor or combine, and they
live
to tell the tale.

MM

I think you'll find its a severed arm, not arms. Both arms severed, you
cant
carry 'em.
Try it and you'll see what I mean :-)

Tsk in the olden days the farm worker would have picked both up in his
teeth, while smoking 80 fags a day and walked 30 miles to the doctor only
after finishing a 18 hour day threshing corn with his severed arms.
Nowadays yer don't know yer born.
I never could understand what that was supposed to mean :-)

No, but with these increasing intrusions on privacy in the womb, where
we see the little mites growing up almost from the point where they
resemble chickens, embryos will be made to feel responsible for their
environment. Expect future Neo Labour governments to apply ASBOs
(inserted by test tube, naturally) if too much kicking is observed.
What must those poor nurses on materity wards think, what with all the
ultrasound piccies they're forced to watch, day in, day out.

So you watched the programme on channel 4 too :0)

On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 15:30:46 +0100, "w.g.s.hamm"
wrote:


"MM" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 9 Apr 2005 23:13:44 +0100, "w.g.s.hamm"
wrote:


"Tumbleweed" wrote in message
...

"MM" wrote in message
...

Luck always comes into survival of the fittest. Often it isn't the
fittest, but the luckiest who survive. But how many relatively minor
wounds became gangrenous and eventually killed the host because basic
first aid wasn't carried out, like washing and bandaging? On the
other
hand, we have true stories of farm workers carrying their severed
arms
to a doctor after being crushed by a tractor or combine, and they
live
to tell the tale.

MM

I think you'll find its a severed arm, not arms. Both arms severed, you
cant
carry 'em.
Try it and you'll see what I mean :-)

Tsk in the olden days the farm worker would have picked both up in his
teeth, while smoking 80 fags a day and walked 30 miles to the doctor only
after finishing a 18 hour day threshing corn with his severed arms.
Nowadays yer don't know yer born.
I never could understand what that was supposed to mean :-)

No, but with these increasing intrusions on privacy in the womb, where
we see the little mites growing up almost from the point where they
resemble chickens, embryos will be made to feel responsible for their
environment. Expect future Neo Labour governments to apply ASBOs
(inserted by test tube, naturally) if too much kicking is observed.
What must those poor nurses on materity wards think, what with all the
ultrasound piccies they're forced to watch, day in, day out.

So you watched the programme on channel 4 too :0)

Nope. The trailers were more than I could bear. Too much information.

MM