I have some seeds from globe thistles and a few others and was
wondering when i need to get them under way, what type of soil and
temperatures.
anyone know?

In message
HaaRoy wrote:

I have some seeds from globe thistles and a few others and was
wondering when i need to get them under way, what type of soil and
temperatures.
anyone know?

My thistles and teasle seem to prefer to grow where they decide to self
seed and not where I plant them and fuss over them. However I did sow
originals into open ground. My soil is quite poor and sandy. It is
both anoying and rewarding to grow plants that seem to thrive when left
to their own devices. So get the first ones going and then
leave them alone. Foxgloves I find are another good self seeder
--
Derek Banks


Read the "MORNING STAR" daily newspaper for PEACE and SOCIALISM

On Wed, 27 Nov 2002 18:27:05 +0000, HaaRoy wrote:

I have some seeds from globe thistles and a few others and was
wondering when i need to get them under way, what type of soil and
temperatures.
anyone know?

I won't hit it with you right away but I have, at the bottom of this
message, given you a list of 37 plants which have the word "thistle"
in their common name.

Not only that, although most of them are from the family Compositae, a
couple of them are even from different families (Labiatae and
Chenopodiaceae).

Does it make a difference?

Well you are talking to a newbie seed sower here who has just taken
delivery of a clutch of packets from Chiltern Seeds.

A select few of these packets had very specific instructions stuck to
them. It seems that the seeds of certain plants will not germinate
unless their biological processes are activated with moisture and
moderate warmth and then they are banished into near freezing
temperatures for a goodly while. This period of cold is apparently
essential to their metabolism and it is only after they have endured
this that they can gird their loins for their final Oom Pah Pah in
conditions resembling the coming of Spring with its warmth.

Looking it up, I can deduce that Echinops ritro (Globe thistle - the
one you identified) is one such plant and should be sown in a cold
frame. Whether or not it first of all needs a wake up call with the
damp and not quite so cold (Lets pretend it's Autumn?) I have no idea.

I have a little text file which I transcribed from the label on
Chilterns seeds which I have dubbed "Chiltern's cold seeds"

I think if you want to start them off immediately I would recommend
you follow it.

Chiltern cold seeds:

1. 64 - 72 F 2/4 wks
17 - 22 C


2. 25 - 40 F 4/6 wks
-4 - 4 C


3. Return to to more than
65 F
19 C

Indeed, if the seeds don't sprout the first season you are strongly
advised to leave them to experience the full cycle of temperature
environments and expect them to emerge the following year.

To avoid stress for myself and thereby probably the plants too, each
of my 3.5" pots is enclosed in its little greenhouse consisting of a
clear polythene sandwich bag tied tight closed with a wire tie (often
supplied with the bags) but leaving a fair amount of air inside the
bubble. In this way I can be sure that they will never (or scarcely
ever) need watering. However, because this is an ideal environment
for fungii and other pathogens I also intend giving them a treatment
of Cheshunts Compound as recommended.

Which medium to use seems controversial. Chiltern seeds say that the
success rate with Levington's Peat based compost far exceeds John
Innes loam based. Maybe the objection to Levington's is based on
environmental principles (the ransacking of peat bogs).

My kitchen table seems to have been transformed to a potting bench!

As for the "few other thistles" - well maybe one of them is the Scotch
Thistle (Onopordum acanthium) (which, in cultivation, I would regard
as more exotic than the Echinops). It seems that can be sown in Spring
and do without the near freeze.

Please remember that I said I'm a newbie and you should take the
advice of any of the seasoned gardeners who respond to you if their
advice is contrary to that I have given you.

Respect

Hussein - the list follows!

Carduus crispus Welted thistle
Carduus nutans Musk thistle
Carlina acaulis Stemless carline thistle
Carlina vulgaris Carline thistle
Carthamnus lanatus Distaff thistle
Centaurea calcitrapa Common star thistle
Centaurea iberica Iberian star thistle
Centaurea melitensis Maltese star thistle
Centaurea solstitialis St. Barnaby's/Yellow Star thistle
Cicerbita alpina Blue sow thistle
Cirsium acaulon Stemless thistle
Cirsium arvense Creeping thistle
Cirsium brevistylum Indian thistle
Cirsium eatoni Eaton's thistle
Cirsium edule Edible thistle
Cirsium eriophorum Wooly thistle
Cirsium hookerianum White thistle
Cirsium occidentale Cobwebby thistle
Cirsium ochrocentrum Yellow spined thistle
Cirsium oleraceum Cabbage thistle
Cirsium pallidum Pale thistle
Cirsium palustre Marsh thistle
Cirsium tuberosum Tuberous thistle
Cirsium undulatum Wavy-leaved thistle
Cirsium vulgare Common thistle
Cnicus benedictus Blessed thistle
Echinops ritro Globe thistle
Onopordum acanthium Scotch thistle
Onopordum illyricum Cotton thistle
Salsola kali ruthenica Prickly Russian thistle
Salvia carduacea Thistle sage
Scolymus maculatus Spotted golden thistle
Silybum marianum Milk thistle
Sonchus arvensis Field milk thistle
Sonchus asper Prickly sow thistle
Sonchus oleraceus Sow thistle

In article , Hussein M.
writes
Hussein - the list follows!

That's a fascinating list of thistles Hussein and it illustrates how
much variation occurs under common or popular name descriptions of
plants. RHS Plantfinder CD 2000/01 gives an even wider range of plants
with 'thistle' in their name including six varieties of Globe Thistle,
most of which are listed as echinops.

I have always thought of Globe Artichokes, Cynara scolymus and Cardoon,
Cynara cardunculus as edible relatives of the common garden thistle,
Cirsium vulgare. They are in the compositae family, but none of the five
varieties of Cynara listed in Plantfinder have 'thistle' in their name.
What all of those plants share is vigour and hardiness, welcome enough
in cropping, but less so in decorative gardening.
--
Alan & Joan Gould - North Lincs.

In article , Alan Gould
writes
I have always thought of Globe Artichokes, Cynara scolymus and Cardoon,
Cynara cardunculus as edible relatives of the common garden thistle,
Cirsium vulgare. They are in the compositae family, but none of the five
varieties of Cynara listed in Plantfinder have 'thistle' in their name.
What all of those plants share is vigour and hardiness, welcome enough
in cropping, but less so in decorative gardening.

Most of the plants called thistles belong to a sub-group classified as
Cardueae, which also includes Cardoons, Cornflowers, Knapweeds, et alia.
Sow-thistles are an exception; they are related to Dandelions, Lettuces,
Hawkweeds et al (Lactuceae).
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley

In article , Stewart Robert Hinsley
writes
Most of the plants called thistles belong to a sub-group classified as
Cardueae, which also includes Cardoons, Cornflowers, Knapweeds, et alia.
Sow-thistles are an exception; they are related to Dandelions, Lettuces,
Hawkweeds et al (Lactuceae).

Thanks Stewart. The plot re. plant relationship thickens here a bit, but
all of those you mention are in the Compositae family, though in
different genera and species of that group. Some of them are also
mentioned as species or sub-species within the Asteraceae family, and
use the synonym Lactuca for differentiation. Plantfinder gives twenty
varieties of Sow-thistle, with the common Sow-thistle listed as Sonchus
oleraceus.
--
Alan & Joan Gould - North Lincs.

On Wed, 27 Nov 2002 18:27:05 +0000, HaaRoy wrote:



i managed to find globe thistels in a propogation book and it just
says grow them in situ april to june.

On Fri, 29 Nov 2002 20:01:30 +0000, Alan Gould
wrote:

Most of the plants called thistles belong to a sub-group classified as
Cardueae, which also includes Cardoons, Cornflowers, Knapweeds, et alia.
Sow-thistles are an exception; they are related to Dandelions, Lettuces,
Hawkweeds et al (Lactuceae).

Thanks Stewart. The plot re. plant relationship thickens here a bit, but
all of those you mention are in the Compositae family, though in
different genera and species of that group. Some of them are also
mentioned as species or sub-species within the Asteraceae family, and
use the synonym Lactuca for differentiation. Plantfinder gives twenty
varieties of Sow-thistle, with the common Sow-thistle listed as Sonchus
oleraceus.

Phew. Managed to include a word from the subject line in the quote
above.

Anyway. I just wanted to add to these observations concerning
nomenclature that there may well be a _really_ grand re-ordering of
this when they start classifying according to DNA and individual
genes. It's already begun to happen hasn't it?

Rspct

Hussein

On Fri, 29 Nov 2002 20:20:57 +0000, HaaRoy wrote:

On Wed, 27 Nov 2002 18:27:05 +0000, HaaRoy wrote:



i managed to find globe thistels in a propogation book and it just
says grow them in situ april to june.

In that case I suppose you would have to be prepared to wait until the
next year for the first flower. I also suppose that the best time to
sow any seed in situ is that time when the plant seeded to produce the
seeds.

Rspct

Hussein

In article , Hussein M.
writes

Anyway. I just wanted to add to these observations concerning
nomenclature that there may well be a _really_ grand re-ordering of
this when they start classifying according to DNA and individual
genes. It's already begun to happen hasn't it?


Yes, but Asteraceae/Compositae seems to be one of the more robust bits
of the classification (excepting the past dismemberment of
Chyrsanthemum). For an overview see

URL:http://www.mobot.org/MOBOT/Research/...ers/asteralesw
eb.htm#Asteraceae

Elsewhere, not only has Liliaceae been chopped into lots of little
pieces, as previously proposed, but it's spread across two orders (into
one of which Orchidaceae is sunk).

Or for my summary on Malvaceae, see

http://www.meden.demon.co.uk/Malvace.../overview.html
http://www.meden.demon.co.uk/Malvace...ttneriina.html
http://www.meden.demon.co.uk/Malvace...alvatheca.html

tho' I haven't incorporated recent data on Hibiscus, Pavonia, etc.

I stumbled across a suggestion that Veronica will swallow Hebe and
Parahebe yesterday evening.
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley

In article , Hussein M.
writes

Anyway. I just wanted to add to these observations concerning
nomenclature that there may well be a _really_ grand re-ordering of
this when they start classifying according to DNA and individual
genes. It's already begun to happen hasn't it?

That sounds a pretty formidable task, but if such is happening I would
hope that food plants and natural or wild plants are given equal
attention to floral and exotic. The Cruciferae family, particularly the
brassicaceae are long overdue for revision and re-classification IMHO.
--
Alan & Joan Gould - North Lincs.

In article , Alan Gould
writes
In article , Hussein M.
writes

Anyway. I just wanted to add to these observations concerning
nomenclature that there may well be a _really_ grand re-ordering of
this when they start classifying according to DNA and individual
genes. It's already begun to happen hasn't it?

That sounds a pretty formidable task, but if such is happening I would
hope that food plants and natural or wild plants are given equal
attention to floral and exotic.

It is precisely the 'natural or wild plants' which are the subject of
the classification. The aim, as ever in taxonomy, is to get closer and
closer to the natural evolution of plants

The Cruciferae family, particularly the
brassicaceae are long overdue for revision and re-classification IMHO.

What particular aspects worry you?

--
Kay Easton

Edward's earthworm page:
http://www.scarboro.demon.co.uk/garden/

In article , Alan Gould
writes
That sounds a pretty formidable task, but if such is happening I would
hope that food plants and natural or wild plants are given equal
attention to floral and exotic. The Cruciferae family, particularly the
brassicaceae are long overdue for revision and re-classification IMHO.

Extensive sequencing of individual species mostly applies to crop plants
(e.g. rice, cotton), but also to thale cress (Arabidopsis thaliana)
which is used as a model plant in the study of plant developmental
biology.

Beyond that there is a bias towards the wild relatives of crop plants
(e.g. plenty of sequences of wild cottons), and to recently described
species (presumably because the researchers have material to hand). In
several groups well known ornamentals are missing from the set of
species for which sequences are published (e.g. H. syriacus and H.
mutabilis in Hibiscus). Take a look at EMBL/DDBJ or Genbank.

PS: Cruciferae and Brassicaceae are one and the same, with
Capparaceae/Capparidaceae sunk therein in recent classifications.
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley
http://www.meden.demon.co.uk/Malvace...directory.html

In article , Alan Gould
writes
Thanks Stewart. The plot re. plant relationship thickens here a bit, but
all of those you mention are in the Compositae family, though in
different genera and species of that group. Some of them are also
mentioned as species or sub-species within the Asteraceae family, and
use the synonym Lactuca for differentiation. Plantfinder gives twenty
varieties of Sow-thistle, with the common Sow-thistle listed as Sonchus
oleraceus.

Cardueae and Lactuceae (or Cichorieae) are subdivisions of Compositae; I
took that as understood. Asteraceae and Compositae are the same.

[The current rules are that family names are derived from generic names,
but some old family names are grandfathered in

Leguminosae = Fabaceae
Guttiferae = Hypericaceae
Graminales = Poaceae
Labiatae = Lamiaceae
Compositae = Asteraceae
Cruciferae = Brassicaceae
Umbelliferae = Apiaceae

and any more I've forgotten.]
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley

The message
from Hussein M. contains these words:

I also suppose that the best time to
sow any seed in situ is that time when the plant seeded to produce the
seeds.

Well...no, it isn't, especially in areas which have cold or wet
winters. Autumn-sown open ground seeds usually have far lower
germination and poorer survival rates than the same seeds properly
stored, then planted in the same place in Spring. Seeds in open ground
do better when soil is warming up not cooling down, and when daylength
is lengthening not shortening.

Janet.