"oknwht?" wrote in message
...

[snip]

Will you actually give these vegetables to your kids? Your
friends? Your
parents? And you, yourself, will actually eat them?

Yes. Why not? Glyphosate is used commercially as a weedkiller on
millions of acres of agricuktural land all over the world and the
vegetable products from these farms are consumed in vast quantities
everywhere.

[snip]

Franz

On Sun, 03 Oct 2004 01:25:24 GMT, oknwht?
wrote:


Discussing the price of this product (weedkiller-Roundup etc.) does not
make it ok to use. There was a suggestion early on in this post that simply
said:
"Just turn it over..." and
"Using weed killer is not good for a vegetable garden".
What more does one need to know.
But then it is your vegetable garden...please don't invite me over for
supper...!
Will you actually give these vegetables to your kids? Your friends? Your
parents? And you, yourself, will actually eat them?
Don't do it-turn it over. It's called green manure and it will nurture
the soil...it's fall and you can't grow anything now anyway.
Turn it over and let nature take its course. In the spring you can plant
your vegetable seeds and know you did the right thing.
In fact turn it over now and plant a cover crop. You would want one that
will smother the weeds. Ask your local gardening shop about that.
With love...of veggies,
Twiggy

Like countless millions of well nourished healthy people in the world,
we do use it, we eat produce grown in areas treated with it. Before
the application of modern science to agriculture there were far fewer
people on this planet, and a greater proportion of them were
malnourished or downright starving than is the case now. Don't knock
it - there's never been a better time to be alive.
Roundup or it's generic equivalents are excellent products to use to
clean up a badly overgrown area prior to getting it into food
production.
Nothing wrong with green manure either but it aint gonna get rid of
your perennial weeds and get your land back into efficient
production.
Hard labour or Roundup? Amateurs can choose. For most people earning a
living from the land there isn't any choice given the the absence of a
huge low paid labour force and relentless downward pressure on prices
exerted by we the consumers (not the supermarkets, they wouldn't last
5 minutes if we didn't use 'em).


=================================================

Rod

Weed my email address to reply.
http://website.lineone.net/~rodcraddock/index.html

The message
from Rod contains these words:

Roundup or it's generic equivalents are excellent products to use to
clean up a badly overgrown area prior to getting it into food
production.

Um - a bit too ambiguous for comfort?

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

"oknwht?" wrote in message
...
On 9/29/04 8:00 AM, in article
ult, "Steve Harris"
wrote:

In article ,
(Phil L) wrote:

Boys and girls,
Discussing the price of this product (weedkiller-Roundup etc.) does
not
make it ok to use.

er discussing doesn't make it NOT ok to use either. The facts are wot makes
it OK or not OK to use.

There was a suggestion early on in this post that simply
said:
"Just turn it over..." and
"Using weed killer is not good for a vegetable garden".
What more does one need to know.

What one needs to know is whether the second assertion is true or not. As
it's stated in such blanket, unqualified terms, I would consider it very
unlikely to be true.

But then it is your vegetable garden...please don't invite me over for
supper...!

astonishing statement, given the widespread use of glyphosate. Do you never
eat any commercially grown vegetables, and do you refuse invitations from
anyone who does?

Will you actually give these vegetables to your kids? Your friends?
Your
parents? And you, yourself, will actually eat them?

And you claim that you don't?

Don't do it-turn it over. It's called green manure

no, it isn't. Perennial weeds are not generally suitable for use as green
manure.

and it will nurture
the soil...

...or spread bits of perennial weeds throughout the soil. Silly stuff.

it's fall and you can't grow anything now anyway.

No it's not fall- it's autumn, and things, including weeds, do grow
overwinter in the UK.

Turn it over and let nature take its course. In the spring you can
plant
your vegetable seeds and know you did the right thing.

and spend lots of effort fighting the weeds again.

--
Anton

"oknwht?" wrote in message
...
On 9/29/04 8:00 AM, in article
ult, "Steve Harris"
wrote:

In article ,
(Phil L) wrote:

it worked out cheaper to buy roundup in the long run.

If you study the packaging carefully, you will note:

- Dilution before use is the norm
- The glyphosate content

You will find several offerings cheaper than Roundup (more
glyphosate
per pound)

Steve Harris - Cheltenham - Real address steve AT netservs DOT com
A useful bit of gardening software at
http://www.netservs.com/garden/
Boys and girls,
Discussing the price of this product (weedkiller-Roundup etc.)
does not
make it ok to use.

That is true. The fact that it is OK to use has been confirmed by
many years of systematic and patient experimentation.

There was a suggestion early on in this post that simply
said:
"Just turn it over..." and
"Using weed killer is not good for a vegetable garden".

That is a badly biased statement which cannot be supported by
experimental data.

What more does one need to know.

One needs to know to pay scant attention to bigoted opinions not based
on scientific knowledge.

But then it is your vegetable garden...please don't invite me
over for
supper...!
Will you actually give these vegetables to your kids?

Yes.

Your friends?

Yes. I don't have to give it to them. They buy it at the supermarket
without querying, and they don't suffer bad consequences as a result.

Your
parents?

No now. I did when they were alive.

And you, yourself, will actually eat them?

Daily. With relish.

Don't do it

Why on earth not?

[snip]

Franz

On 10/2/04 11:16 PM, in article , "Franz
Heymann" wrote:


"oknwht?" wrote in message
...

[snip]

Will you actually give these vegetables to your kids? Your
friends? Your
parents? And you, yourself, will actually eat them?

Glyphosate is used commercially as a weedkiller on
millions of acres of agricuktural land all over the world

[snip]

Franz
Franz,
Would it be ok if I was to quote what you just said?
"It (Glyphosate) is used on millions of acres of agricultural land all
over the world"...
That must mean then, that lots of weed killer is being put into streams
all over the world....into lakes and ultimately the oceans...
What proof do you have that it is not? What proof do you have that it
will do no harm to anyone who eats the vegetables grown after it's use? You
defend it's use like you are a shareholder (of the manufacturer).
Twiggy made some good points, why did you snip them?
Someone suggested digging it in...a good organic idea-nothing wrong with
exercise, especially when it means one less pint of chemical put into the
environment.
Gary
Fort Langley, BC
Canada

"Gary Davis" wrote in message
...
On 10/2/04 11:16 PM, in article ,
"Franz
Heymann" wrote:


"oknwht?" wrote in message
...

[snip]

Will you actually give these vegetables to your kids? Your
friends? Your
parents? And you, yourself, will actually eat them?

Glyphosate is used commercially as a weedkiller on
millions of acres of agricuktural land all over the world

[snip]

Franz

Franz,
Would it be ok if I was to quote what you just said?
"It (Glyphosate) is used on millions of acres of agricultural
land all
over the world"...
That must mean then, that lots of weed killer is being put into
streams
all over the world....into lakes and ultimately the oceans...

That is a nonsensical reply to what I said.. Glyphosate is destroyed
within hours after entering the soil.

What proof do you have that it is not?

The fact that it is destroyed very quickly after entering the soil.

What proof do you have that it
will do no harm to anyone who eats the vegetables grown after it's
use?

Statistics. Give me a statistically significant sample of folk who
have been harmed by consuming glyphosate ingested by eating
vegetables. Bear in mind that the topic has been subjected to
continuous, intense experimentation over a number of decades.

You
defend it's use like you are a shareholder (of the manufacturer).

No. Such savings as I have are all deposited in a building society.
I just don't go with the prejudiced statements about the ills of not
being an "organic gardener".

Twiggy made some good points, why did you snip them?

If I had not, somebody would have said that I should snip those parts
of the note which are not contextual with what I said. I have been
chided on that score more than once before. I indicated that I
snipped. That is my way of signalling that the interested reader
might wish to read the missing matter by referring to the previous
post.

Someone suggested digging it in...a good organic idea-nothing
wrong with
exercise, especially when it means one less pint of chemical put
into the
environment.

I have no objection to that. I also have no objection to eating it.

By the way, do you have any data on the temperature at which
glyphosate decomposes? Do you know whether it survives a typical
cooking procedure?

Franz

Gary Davis wrote in message ...
On 10/2/04 11:16 PM, in article , "Franz
Heymann" wrote:


"oknwht?" wrote in message
...

[snip]

Will you actually give these vegetables to your kids? Your
friends? Your
parents? And you, yourself, will actually eat them?

Glyphosate is used commercially as a weedkiller on
millions of acres of agricuktural land all over the world

[snip]

Franz
Franz,
Would it be ok if I was to quote what you just said?
"It (Glyphosate) is used on millions of acres of agricultural land all
over the world"...
That must mean then, that lots of weed killer is being put into streams
all over the world....into lakes and ultimately the oceans...
What proof do you have that it is not? What proof do you have that it
will do no harm to anyone who eats the vegetables grown after it's use? You
defend it's use like you are a shareholder (of the manufacturer).
Twiggy made some good points, why did you snip them?
Someone suggested digging it in...a good organic idea-nothing wrong with
exercise, especially when it means one less pint of chemical put into the
environment.
Gary
Fort Langley, BC
Canada

Gary

I have read Franz' position on Glyphosate before and he is totally
consistent. I think his postion can be summarized as -

There is no scientific proof that Glyphosate harms the environment, no
proof that it enters to food chain and harms animals or people.
Therefore its OK.

On a separate but related point, last nights TV contained a
documentary on Vietnam. Part of it contained a visit to a hospital (I
think in Hanoi). One ward was full of disfigured children. The
disfigurations were blamed on Agent Orange, a defoliant used by the US
when they realised they could not win a jungle war.

Some of these children were 3rd generation, ie their grandparents were
exposed to Agent Orange.

Maybe this explains why I am NOT waiting for scientific proof.

Incidentally, the US have never admitted that the problems are as a
result of Agent Orange and no compensation has ever been paid to
victims, or assistance given to the Vietnamese authorities to help
with the care of the unfortunate victims.

The message
from Gary Davis contains these words:

Would it be ok if I was to quote what you just said?
"It (Glyphosate) is used on millions of acres of agricultural land all
over the world"...
That must mean then, that lots of weed killer is being put into streams
all over the world....into lakes and ultimately the oceans...

Not so. It forms strong triangular bonds with soil particles and is
locked in that location.

What proof do you have that it is not? What proof do you have that it
will do no harm to anyone who eats the vegetables grown after it's use? You
defend it's use like you are a shareholder (of the manufacturer).

Well, I recognise an enemy of Monsanto when I see one, and, I see one. I
have no love of their methods, but I do have the utmost confidence in
Roundup®. And yes, I have used it a lot when I had a smallholding.

What evidence do *YOU* have that glyphosate harms not only the target
vegetation, but the wider environment?

Twiggy made some good points, why did you snip them?
Someone suggested digging it in...a good organic idea-nothing wrong with
exercise, especially when it means one less pint of chemical put into the
environment.

You can dig it in when you've killed it with the weedkiller and get the
best of both worlds.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

Philip wrote
" One ward was full of disfigured children. The disfigurations were blamed
on Agent Orange, a defoliant used by the US when they realised they could
not win a jungle war..."

If you look further into it you will find that there are hundreds, if not
thousands of children in the US who also have birth defects brought on by
Agent Orrange.
The troops were told how safe it was to the extent that at least one Sergent
would actualy dring some of it to show the recrutes that it was harmless

You may find this of interest .................

The World Today - Wednesday, 6 October , 2004 12:22:00
Reporter: Gillian Bradford
ELEANOR HALL: There's been some justice today for Vietnam Veterans across
the Tasman. For thirty years, successive governments have denied New Zealand
soldiers were exposed to Agent Orange and other defoliant chemicals.

But a new bi-partisan report from the Parliament's health committee has
found troops were exposed and that their children have also suffered.

New Zealand Correspondent Gillian Bradford reports.

GILLIAN BRADFORD: In the years after they came back from the war, Vietnam
veterans knew something wasn't quite right. There were skin conditions,
abnormal rates of cancer and birth defects among their children.


--
David Hill
Abacus nurseries
www.abacus-nurseries.co.uk

The message
from Martin contains these words:

What about the effect on rivers/streams of glyphosate that washes off
the plants before it has decomposed?

It immediately forms safe permanent bonds with soil particles.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

"Martin" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 6 Oct 2004 08:26:43 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann"
wrote:


"Gary Davis" wrote in message
...
On 10/2/04 11:16 PM, in article
,

snip

Someone suggested digging it in...a good organic idea-nothing
wrong with
exercise, especially when it means one less pint of chemical put
into the
environment.

I have no objection to that. I also have no objection to eating
it.

By the way, do you have any data on the temperature at which
glyphosate decomposes? Do you know whether it survives a typical
cooking procedure?

What about the effect on rivers/streams of glyphosate that washes
off
the plants before it has decomposed?

It washes off the plant during the first rain after application, and
decomposes in the soil in a very brief time.
When I mentioned cooking, I had in mind the minuscule quantities which
may still have remained absorbed inside the vegetable.

Franz

"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 6 Oct 2004 08:26:43 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann"
wrote:


"Gary Davis" wrote in message
...
On 10/2/04 11:16 PM, in article
,
"Franz
Heymann" wrote:


"oknwht?" wrote in message
...

[snip]

Will you actually give these vegetables to your kids? Your
friends? Your
parents? And you, yourself, will actually eat them?

Glyphosate is used commercially as a weedkiller on
millions of acres of agricuktural land all over the world

[snip]

Franz

Franz,
Would it be ok if I was to quote what you just said?
"It (Glyphosate) is used on millions of acres of agricultural
land all
over the world"...
That must mean then, that lots of weed killer is being put
into
streams
all over the world....into lakes and ultimately the oceans...

That is a nonsensical reply to what I said.. Glyphosate is
destroyed
within hours after entering the soil.


Ha ha ha. Amazing to think there are still clueless idiots like you
around, must make Monsanto proud.

Quite unreal in naivety.

How about a reasoned reply. That is, assuming that you do possess
some element of intellect.
And cut the unwelcome amount of sig in your post. It runs counter to
netiquette. Or are you devoid of both mannera and intellect?

[snip the obnoxious sig essay]

Franz

The message
from "Franz Heymann" contains these words:

How about a reasoned reply. That is, assuming that you do possess
some element of intellect.
And cut the unwelcome amount of sig in your post. It runs counter to
netiquette. Or are you devoid of both mannera and intellect?

This isn't Jim Webster, but one of the usual trolls.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

"Jim Webster" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 6 Oct 2004 13:10:56 +0100, Jaques d'Alltrades
wrote:

The message
from Martin contains these words:

What about the effect on rivers/streams of glyphosate that washes
off
the plants before it has decomposed?

It immediately forms safe permanent bonds with soil particles.

Not it doesn't.

That is not a reasoned response and it is quite incorrect in point of
fact.

Franz