I have water repellant soil due to drought conditions and am tempted to use
a surfactant to help get water down deep into the soil.

I am hesitant to use any wetting agent as it may do long term damage to soil
biota but if I don't I'm going to lose some some plants which are normally
as tough as old boots (such as roses) but which are now doing it tough after
long years of drought.

The wetting agent I have in mind to use has the following ingredients:
Propylene glycol ethoxylate 90%
Nonyl phenol ethoxylate 10%

Does anyone know if these ingredients are dangerous to worms or other forms
of soil life please?

Fran wrote "I have water repellent soil due to drought conditions and am
tempted to use a surfactant to help get water down deep into the soil. "


Why not just use washing up liquid, It is a negative ion wetting agent.


--
David Hill
Abacus nurseries
www.abacus-nurseries.co.uk

"David Hill" wrote in message ...
Fran wrote "I have water repellent soil due to drought conditions and am
tempted to use a surfactant to help get water down deep into the soil. "


Why not just use washing up liquid, It is a negative ion wetting agent.

Washing-up liquid is the usual wetting agent over here for dehydrated
pot plants; and I always chuck those too-small bits of soap in a
watering can and leave them there. But I don't really think a wetting
agent is necessary for ordinary garden soil. And in any case, during a
drought it's best to save all the domestic "grey" water from baths etc
(not the dishwasher, though) for the garden. This will contain small
quantities of soap and other surface-acting substances, and won't do
the garden any harm at all.

Whatever your source of water, if there's a surface crust which lets
water run off the places where you want it to stay, it's best to break
it up with a fork before watering. This will do more good than an
additive. Sometimes you also have to give a plant its ration a little
bit at a time, wetting the soil gradually to avoid run-off. After
watering, if you've got any compost, a mulch is a good idea, too: for
precious plants in bad conditions, it's worth buying in some mulching
material. In an emergency, I wouldn't mind using flattened-out
cardboard boxes or even plastic sheet.

Good luck!

Mike.

"Fran" wrote in message
...
I have water repellant soil due to drought conditions

Drought? Where do you live, Fran? Certainly not in east Lancashire :-)



Regards,



Gavin

gavin wrote:
:: "Fran" wrote in message
:: ...
::: I have water repellant soil due to drought conditions
::
:: Drought? Where do you live, Fran? Certainly not in east Lancashire
:: :-)
::
::
::
:: Regards,
::
::
::
:: Gavin

..au is Australia

"gavin" wrote in message
...

"Fran" wrote in message
...
I have water repellant soil due to drought conditions

Drought? Where do you live, Fran? Certainly not in east Lancashire :-)


Its been ****ing with rain here a lot in Reading but my lawn still has some
remarkably large cracks in it.

--
Tumbleweed

email replies not necessary but to contact use;
tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com

"David Hill" wrote in message
Fran wrote "I have water repellent soil due to drought conditions and
am
tempted to use a surfactant to help get water down deep into the soil. "

Why not just use washing up liquid, It is a negative ion wetting agent.

But will detergent kill or harm worms?

My major concern about any sort of wetting agent is wheterh they will do
damage to micro fauna and specifically worms in the soil. I've had no luck
doing a google search and the local gardening gurus in the media don't seem
to be able to answer this question.

Fran asked "But will detergent kill or harm worms?"

not at the strength you would use it,
A tea spoonful per Gallon would be plenty to do the job and this is a lot
less than you would use in washing up, and throwing a bowl full of used
washing up water onto the ground does no harm


--
David Hill
Abacus nurseries
www.abacus-nurseries.co.uk

In article 414eb9db$0$24407$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-
01.iinet.net.au, Fran writes
"David Hill" wrote in message
Fran wrote "I have water repellent soil due to drought conditions and
am
tempted to use a surfactant to help get water down deep into the soil. "

Why not just use washing up liquid, It is a negative ion wetting agent.

But will detergent kill or harm worms?

My major concern about any sort of wetting agent is wheterh they will do
damage to micro fauna and specifically worms in the soil. I've had no luck
doing a google search and the local gardening gurus in the media don't seem
to be able to answer this question.

If your soil is that dry I am surprised you have any worms.

But the resident oligochaetologist says that there will be earthworm
coccoons, and you'll damage those, along with most of the rest of the
invertebrates.

Breaking up the soil surface is your best bet (pick axe?)


--
Kay
"Do not insult the crocodile until you have crossed the river"

In article ,
Kay writes:
|
| If your soil is that dry I am surprised you have any worms.

Dry-terrain tropical worms are adapted to irregular periods of
wet and dry; much like ours but much more so, and they can take
long periods of drought.

| But the resident oligochaetologist says that there will be earthworm
| coccoons, and you'll damage those, along with most of the rest of the
| invertebrates.

That makes sense.

| Breaking up the soil surface is your best bet (pick axe?)

An African hoe. They are made like that for a reason.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

"Kay" wrote in message
Fran writes
"David Hill" wrote in message

Why not just use washing up liquid, It is a negative ion wetting agent.

But will detergent kill or harm worms?

My major concern about any sort of wetting agent is wheterh they will do
damage to micro fauna and specifically worms in the soil. I've had no
luck
doing a google search and the local gardening gurus in the media don't
seem
to be able to answer this question.

If your soil is that dry I am surprised you have any worms.

It depends on the location in the garden. In the veg garden there are more
and where I mulch perennial veg with large rocks there are lots. However,
in the rose areas there are exceptionally few and usually very deep down and
then only in the very few spots where there is some residual moisture (like
around the tap area). The aim is to keep the few I do have and to encourage
more to hatch and stay alive. I need them to work for me creating channels
for if it ever does rain again in sufficient quantity to have any soil
penetration or for when I can manage to water.

But the resident oligochaetologist says that there will be earthworm
coccoons, and you'll damage those, along with most of the rest of the
invertebrates.

Thank you for that information. Please thank the resident expert on my
behalf.

Breaking up the soil surface is your best bet (pick axe?)

I have tried that but as mentioned the soil is water repellant. Even
chipping at it for days with a wonderful purpose built ladies sized pick axe
and then watering after each chipping/digging session results in very uneven
wetting. I can be at it for a week of daily digging and watering and still
find clods of dry soil at the end of the week.

In addition, digging to any great extent is also not possible over the very
large garden I have. It's too big and much of the "soil" has turned
concrete like. I'm trying to keep alive the roses which normally just power
through the heat and relative drought but the local plumbers tell me that
there is no subsoil moisture down even 5 ft so it is a bit of an ask for the
roses.

I was looking for a relatively easy solution but did have doubts that it
existed as you have confirmed. I hate to let over 100 roses simply die or
become so wak that they will have trouble recovering. They are a
significant investment. I have water but getting it in the soil and keeping
it there is the problem.

Be forever grateful that you live in a place with a great climate and good
conditions for gardening. The next nasty on the way appears to be locusts
if the news can be believed.

Thanks again.

"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message
Kay writes:

| Breaking up the soil surface is your best bet (pick axe?)

An African hoe. They are made like that for a reason.

The only African hoe that I can bring to mind is the very broad faced one
that Africans also use to carry/move earth on. A bit like a very short,
wide hoe is the best description I can manage.

If this is the beasty you have in mind then it wouldn't suit here but
certainly would on more powdery soil. My soil looks and acts like a
concrete forecourt at an old local petrol station. Somewhat crumbly in
spots but lots of force needed to break it up.

If you have in mind a hoe with a very narrow or pointed cutting end then I
have a wonderful one of these which is made out of an old leaf spring of a
vehicle. About an inch wide at the narrow end and about 3-4 inches at its
widest end and razor sharp on both ends. Wonderfully effective but one must
keep an eye out for incoming dogs. It would kill one or severely maim it if
it connected.

In article ,
Fran wrote:
"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message
Kay writes:

| Breaking up the soil surface is your best bet (pick axe?)

An African hoe. They are made like that for a reason.

The only African hoe that I can bring to mind is the very broad faced one
that Africans also use to carry/move earth on. A bit like a very short,
wide hoe is the best description I can manage.

If this is the beasty you have in mind then it wouldn't suit here but
certainly would on more powdery soil. My soil looks and acts like a
concrete forecourt at an old local petrol station. Somewhat crumbly in
spots but lots of force needed to break it up.

Think of a lightweight mattock.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

I don't know how practical this would be for you, but you could try boring holes next to each rose bush and inserting some pipe so you could feed the roots directly. A 2 inch bore worm type drill bit should do it.

In message
, Fran
writes
"Kay" wrote in message
Fran writes
"David Hill" wrote in message

Why not just use washing up liquid, It is a negative ion wetting agent.

But will detergent kill or harm worms?

My major concern about any sort of wetting agent is wheterh they will do
damage to micro fauna and specifically worms in the soil. I've had no
luck
doing a google search and the local gardening gurus in the media don't
seem
to be able to answer this question.

If your soil is that dry I am surprised you have any worms.

It depends on the location in the garden. In the veg garden there are more
and where I mulch perennial veg with large rocks there are lots. However,
in the rose areas there are exceptionally few and usually very deep down and
then only in the very few spots where there is some residual moisture

Your best tactic is probably to install the sort of horticultural pipes
that take water down 3 - 4 feet under the roots of the plants. In an
arid environment surface watering evaporates before it penetrates the
ground.

large garden I have. It's too big and much of the "soil" has turned
concrete like. I'm trying to keep alive the roses which normally just power
through the heat and relative drought but the local plumbers tell me that
there is no subsoil moisture down even 5 ft so it is a bit of an ask for the
roses.

Apart from pointing out that it is very difficult to grow plants that
don't match their local environment (I grow desert plants in the UK).
The best you can hope to do is modify the soil close to the roses and
organic mulsh to prevent water loss and encourage worms.

Growing ornamental species from other arid climates might be a better
bet,

I was looking for a relatively easy solution but did have doubts that it
existed as you have confirmed. I hate to let over 100 roses simply die or
become so wak that they will have trouble recovering. They are a
significant investment. I have water but getting it in the soil and keeping
it there is the problem.

Bury a 3" leaky plastic pipe going under their roots and filled from the
top periodically might work. Its a trick I have seen done to allow
saplings to establish in challenging arid deserts. Makes their roots go
down and the water has a long way to go through the soil before it
evaporates.

Regards,
--
Martin Brown