Martin Brown pushed briefly to the front of
the queue on Mon, 10 Feb 2003 21:38:43 GMT, and nailed this to the
shed door:

^ eddy wrote:
^
^ how real are these for us to worry about.
^ what are they ?

(snipette)

^ against. Botulism is relatively common but only a serious health risk if
^ you try making your own herbs in oil and don't get the mix exactly
^ right.

Boggle. Care to expand a little?

Andy

--
sparge at globalnet point co point uk

Life begins at kilofortnight

Andy Spragg wrote:

Martin Brown pushed briefly to the front of
the queue on Mon, 10 Feb 2003 21:38:43 GMT, and nailed this to the
shed door:

^ eddy wrote:
^
^ how real are these for us to worry about.

^ against. Botulism is relatively common but only a serious health risk if
^ you try making your own herbs in oil and don't get the mix exactly
^ right.

Boggle. Care to expand a little?

Yes. It should be more widely known. The risk is small but has increased now
that trendy "things" in oil have become rather more common. Some DIY versions
have in the past proved fatal.

A reasonably simple description of the problem and how to avoid it is at:

http://www.colostate.edu/Orgs/safefo...R/v2n4s08.html
http://www.foodbiotech.org/pathogens/botulism.htm

US health & safety sites tend to be a shade more paranoid than UK ones.

A web search will get you more gory details.

Regards,
Martin Brown

On Wed, 12 Feb 2003 01:54:49 GMT, (Andy
Spragg) wrote:

Martin Brown wrote:

^ Botulism is relatively common but only a serious health risk if
^ you try making your own herbs in oil and don't get the mix exactly
^ right.

Boggle. Care to expand a little?

The health authorities here from time to time have to seize
home-made oil-preserved garlic being sold at flea markets and
such. The airless environment that results from in-oil
preseveration is congenial to the growth of botulism; perhaps the
risk is higher because garlic is a root crop and it's harder to
remove all traces of soil contamination.

Indeed, about ten years ago there was a high-end restaurant in
Vancouver that was using *commercial* garlic-in-oil and poisoned
a number of people. The cook had opened a new jar, took some out,
recapped it, and in time botulism developed. A number of
customers developed symptoms, though I don't think any died.

I've not heard of other herbs posing such a problem. It always
seems to be garlic that causes difficulty.

--
Rodger Whitlock
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada

"Rodger Whitlock" wrote in
message ...
On Wed, 12 Feb 2003 01:54:49 GMT, (Andy
Spragg) wrote:

Martin Brown wrote:

^ Botulism is relatively common but only a serious health risk if
^ you try making your own herbs in oil and don't get the mix exactly
^ right.

Boggle. Care to expand a little?

The health authorities here from time to time have to seize
home-made oil-preserved garlic being sold at flea markets and
such. The airless environment that results from in-oil
preseveration is congenial to the growth of botulism; perhaps the
risk is higher because garlic is a root crop and it's harder to
remove all traces of soil contamination.

Indeed, about ten years ago there was a high-end restaurant in
Vancouver that was using *commercial* garlic-in-oil and poisoned
a number of people. The cook had opened a new jar, took some out,
recapped it, and in time botulism developed. A number of
customers developed symptoms, though I don't think any died.

I've not heard of other herbs posing such a problem. It always
seems to be garlic that causes difficulty.

--
Rodger Whitlock
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
I help run a farmers market and the EHO's are not happy with herbs in oil
but I had no idea why! this may be a reason, some one out there must know?

--
Charlie, gardening in Cornwall.
http://www.roselandhouse.co.uk
Holders of National Plant Collection of Clematis viticella (cvs)

Charlie Pridham wrote:

I help run a farmers market and the EHO's are not happy with herbs in oil
but I had no idea why! this may be a reason, some one out there must know?

Anaerobic conditions can allow botulism spores to grow. So that is almost
certainly why.
But they aren't much cop as EHO's if they are unable to explain their
reasoning to you.

(on the face of it the components sound innocent enough but together they can
be dangerous)

Regards,
Martin Brown

"Martin Brown" wrote in message
...


Charlie Pridham wrote:

I help run a farmers market and the EHO's are not happy with herbs in
oil
but I had no idea why! this may be a reason, some one out there must
know?

Anaerobic conditions can allow botulism spores to grow. So that is almost
certainly why.
But they aren't much cop as EHO's if they are unable to explain their
reasoning to you.

(on the face of it the components sound innocent enough but together they
can
be dangerous)

Regards,
Martin Brown

To be fair I sell plants not food, so I didn't ask! but a lady who sells
herbs was warned off doing it, so I wondered, because as you say the
ingrediants seem harmless. Although I assume from what has been posted that
the herbs would have to be contaminated in the first place, but even very
small amounts of botulism would then become dodgy. One wonders what they
have to do commercially to render the process safe?

--
Charlie, gardening in Cornwall.
http://www.roselandhouse.co.uk
Holders of National Plant Collection of Clematis viticella (cvs)

On Thu, 13 Feb 2003 16:27:23 -0000, "Charlie Pridham"
wrote:

...One wonders what they
have to do commercially to render the process safe?

Commercial canning operations use much higher temperatures and
pressures than you can attain at home unless you have a
purpose-made "canner" -- essentially a large pressure-cooker, but
one able to handle significantly higher pressures and
temperatures than a normal stovetop pressure-cooker.


--
Rodger Whitlock
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada

On Thu, 13 Feb 2003 13:11:11 GMT, Martin Brown
wrote:

Charlie Pridham wrote:

I help run a farmers market and the EHO's are not happy with herbs in oil
but I had no idea why! this may be a reason, some one out there must know?

Anaerobic conditions can allow botulism spores to grow. So that is almost
certainly why.
But they aren't much cop as EHO's if they are unable to explain their
reasoning to you.

(on the face of it the components sound innocent enough but together they can
be dangerous)

I wonder if this could also be a hazard with shop-bought jars of pesto
that are left to languish in the fridge for a few weeks after opening?

(The superiority of home-made pesto over shop-bought is taken as read
and I am going to make a real effort to grow a decent amount of basil
this year!)
--
Stuart Baldwin
news\at/boxatrix\dot/co\dot/uk

In article ,
says...

"Martin Brown" wrote in message
...


Charlie Pridham wrote:

I help run a farmers market and the EHO's are not happy with herbs in
oil
but I had no idea why! this may be a reason, some one out there must
know?

Anaerobic conditions can allow botulism spores to grow. So that is almost
certainly why.
But they aren't much cop as EHO's if they are unable to explain their
reasoning to you.

(on the face of it the components sound innocent enough but together they
can
be dangerous)

Regards,
Martin Brown

To be fair I sell plants not food, so I didn't ask! but a lady who sells
herbs was warned off doing it, so I wondered, because as you say the
ingrediants seem harmless. Although I assume from what has been posted that
the herbs would have to be contaminated in the first place, but even very
small amounts of botulism would then become dodgy. One wonders what they
have to do commercially to render the process safe?


They add citric acid during the preparation of the 'in oil' ingredient.
The acidic conditions make the environment un viable for the botulin
spores to multiply. I don't think you need to add much, just 'enough' to
raise the acidity more than your normal oil. A home manufacturer for the
farmer's market probably wouldn't know this and may unwittingly produce
a nice environment for the spores to develop unfettered by nasty things
it doesn't like such as air.

Warwick