"Cerumen" wrote in message
...

"Jaques d'Alltrades" wrote in message
k...
The message
from "Cerumen" contains these
words:

W. Keble Martin says: "an ancient introduction." (Concise British
Flora

Yes and a recent native woodland survey here refused to include
woodland
with sycamore (and many other common trees) as native which was why
it
sprang to mind.

By 'ancient' I would understand neolithic times. How picky can you get?

I'm not picky, those who did the survey were. Apparently if it wasn't here
before we were isolated by water it's not native.


I am not sure when Sycamores appeared in Ireland. I thought they were
relatively recent.
You can usually tell clearly with trees from the pollen record if tey are
recent or ancient.
Compared to the dwindling stock of native oak/ash/elm(remains of) woodland,
sycamore is a weed.
It is not that picky. There are other species that are clearly not native
like Limes (I am just talking about Ireland) where people will not really
care much either way as they are fine trees. Sycamores are not worth the
effort as they are invasive and do not make for good diverse woodland flora.
I am not asying they should all be chopped down but I do not think they are
worth preserving and in cases where they are encoraching on the remaining
native woodland, there are good grounds for clearing them out. Irish
oakwooods in teh SW are in a precarious state. There are only a handful of
decent sites and they are badly treatened by Rhododendron to begin with.
Sycamore and laurel do not help either.


--

Chris Thomas
West Cork
Ireland

"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message
...

In article ,
"Cerumen" writes:
|
| By 'ancient' I would understand Neolithic times. How picky can you
get?
|
| I'm not picky, those who did the survey were. Apparently if it wasn't
here
| before we were isolated by water it's not native.

An interesting definition. There have certainly been several birds
that have established here without direct human involvement, and I
think that there have been some plants.

And here, well birds for sure as there is a fairly recent but thriving
colony of
little egrets established very near me.


--

Chris Thomas
West Cork
Ireland

"Cerumen" wrote in message
...

"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message
...

In article ,
"Cerumen" writes:
|
| By 'ancient' I would understand Neolithic times. How picky can you
get?
|
| I'm not picky, those who did the survey were. Apparently if it wasn't
here
| before we were isolated by water it's not native.

Sycamores seem to have been introduced into Ireland in the 1600s.



An interesting definition. There have certainly been several birds
that have established here without direct human involvement, and I
think that there have been some plants.

And here, well birds for sure as there is a fairly recent but thriving
colony of
little egrets established very near me.


--

Chris Thomas
West Cork
Ireland

The message
from "Cerumen" contains these
words:

By 'ancient' I would understand neolithic times. How picky can you get?

I'm not picky, those who did the survey were. Apparently if it wasn't here
before we were isolated by water it's not native.

I wasn't accusing *YOU* of being picky... (The very goovage!)

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

In article , Nick Maclaren
writes

But, if I recall, there is also one which established itself in the
UK by natural hybridisation between an introduced species and a
native one. Now, that is clearly a good species, and the usual
interpretation is that it would be native to somewhere. But, if
not the UK, where? Cockaigne?


Spartina anglica, Senecio cambrensis, Senecio eboracensis, and probably
more (maybe a Rubus, Hieracium or Taraxacum microspecies or several).
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley

"Jaques d'Alltrades" wrote in message
k...
The message
from "Cerumen" contains these
words:

By 'ancient' I would understand neolithic times. How picky can you
get?

I'm not picky, those who did the survey were. Apparently if it wasn't
here
before we were isolated by water it's not native.

I wasn't accusing *YOU* of being picky... (The very goovage!)

Ah, as you were then, I misundergooved.


--

Chris Thomas
West Cork
Ireland

In article ,
Stewart Robert Hinsley wrote:
In article , Nick Maclaren
writes

But, if I recall, there is also one which established itself in the
UK by natural hybridisation between an introduced species and a
native one. Now, that is clearly a good species, and the usual
interpretation is that it would be native to somewhere. But, if
not the UK, where? Cockaigne?

Spartina anglica, Senecio cambrensis, Senecio eboracensis, and probably
more (maybe a Rubus, Hieracium or Taraxacum microspecies or several).

Thanks very much.

Now, can you answer my question? The reply "no" is acceptable :-)


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

In article , Nick Maclaren
writes
In article ,
Stewart Robert Hinsley wrote:
In article , Nick Maclaren
writes

But, if I recall, there is also one which established itself in the
UK by natural hybridisation between an introduced species and a
native one. Now, that is clearly a good species, and the usual
interpretation is that it would be native to somewhere. But, if
not the UK, where? Cockaigne?

Spartina anglica, Senecio cambrensis, Senecio eboracensis, and probably
more (maybe a Rubus, Hieracium or Taraxacum microspecies or several).

Thanks very much.

Now, can you answer my question? The reply "no" is acceptable :-)

I would say that the above named species are native to Britain, but that
depends on depends on the precise definition of nativity used. However,
consider Primula kewensis, which is an allopolyploid derivative of two
Chinese species, which, IIRC, arose in cultivation in Britain. That does
seem to be native to nowhere, so perhaps we could say the same of
Spartina anglica with a clear conscience.
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley