Last May (2003) my daughter bought me a beautiful Acer with the above label,
about 1m high. I transferred to a big pot (40 cm diameter at the top and 40
cm high) filled with a mixture of commercial compost, homemade compost and
loam soil. I put it in a sheltered spot with no direct sunlight. Despite
regular watering and feeding its leaves shrivelled and fell by mid-August.
As you remember 2003 was our Mediterranean summer in SE England and I feared
it was dead. But thankfully it came back. This year the same problem has
re-emerged , that is leaf shrivelling in July and leaf-fall now. There is no
sign of the wonderful autumn colour mentioned in the literature and I wonder
if this is the variety is not true. The initial leaves were red, turned to
green in the centre and remained that way until starting to shrivel by end
July. I have watered really a lot and it is out of direct sunlight.
What is happening? I have had shrubs faring poorly in pots and then thriving
when planted out. This would be next thing to try. But it isn't very
scientific. I really want this plant to do well and remind me of my lovely
daughter for the rest of my natural. Any help would be gratefully accepted.

Best regards

Seb


---
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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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On 12/8/04 8:08 pm, in article , "Seb
Flyte" wrote:

Last May (2003) my daughter bought me a beautiful Acer with the above label,
about 1m high. I transferred to a big pot (40 cm diameter at the top and 40
cm high) filled with a mixture of commercial compost, homemade compost and
loam soil. I put it in a sheltered spot with no direct sunlight. Despite
regular watering and feeding its leaves shrivelled and fell by mid-August.
As you remember 2003 was our Mediterranean summer in SE England and I feared
it was dead. But thankfully it came back. This year the same problem has
re-emerged , that is leaf shrivelling in July and leaf-fall now. There is no
sign of the wonderful autumn colour mentioned in the literature and I wonder
if this is the variety is not true. The initial leaves were red, turned to
green in the centre and remained that way until starting to shrivel by end
July. I have watered really a lot and it is out of direct sunlight.
What is happening? I have had shrubs faring poorly in pots and then thriving
when planted out. This would be next thing to try. But it isn't very
scientific. I really want this plant to do well and remind me of my lovely
daughter for the rest of my natural. Any help would be gratefully accepted.


I think you've answered your own question. "I've watered really a lot". Of
all trees, these seem to be the trickiest for most people to deal with.
Water it only when it is almost bone dry, let it drain well (raise the pot
from the ground) and again, water only when nearly dried out. Keep it out
of the path of any wind and then, basically, leave it alone. I don't know
where you live or in what conditions but I would guess that you could get
away with watering it only once or twice a week and not at all in winter
unless we have a very prolonged dry spell. Wet feet and wet cold feet and
wind are its great enemies.
--
Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove the weeds to email me)

Sacha wrote in message . uk...
On 12/8/04 8:08 pm, in article , "Seb
Flyte" wrote:

Last May (2003) my daughter bought me a beautiful Acer with the above label,
about 1m high. I transferred to a big pot (40 cm diameter at the top and 40
cm high) filled with a mixture of commercial compost, homemade compost and
loam soil. I put it in a sheltered spot with no direct sunlight. Despite
regular watering and feeding its leaves shrivelled and fell by mid-August.
As you remember 2003 was our Mediterranean summer in SE England and I feared
it was dead. But thankfully it came back. This year the same problem has
re-emerged , that is leaf shrivelling in July and leaf-fall now. There is no
sign of the wonderful autumn colour mentioned in the literature and I wonder
if this is the variety is not true. The initial leaves were red, turned to
green in the centre and remained that way until starting to shrivel by end
July. I have watered really a lot and it is out of direct sunlight.
What is happening? I have had shrubs faring poorly in pots and then thriving
when planted out. This would be next thing to try. But it isn't very
scientific. I really want this plant to do well and remind me of my lovely
daughter for the rest of my natural. Any help would be gratefully accepted.


I think you've answered your own question. "I've watered really a lot". Of
all trees, these seem to be the trickiest for most people to deal with.
Water it only when it is almost bone dry, let it drain well (raise the pot
from the ground) and again, water only when nearly dried out. Keep it out
of the path of any wind and then, basically, leave it alone. I don't know
where you live or in what conditions but I would guess that you could get
away with watering it only once or twice a week and not at all in winter
unless we have a very prolonged dry spell. Wet feet and wet cold feet and
wind are its great enemies.

I think this advice is confirmed by your mention that you've had other
woody plants doing badly in pots, only to recover when planted out. It
suggests a common factor may be your technique. Sacha mentions raising
the pot to assist drainage: you can use three stones, or those pot
feet you can now get everywhere.

I'd also guess (but it's only a guess) 40 cm is too big a pot: best
way is the old rule of patiently going up one size at a time, and only
when the roots have definitely reached the outside of the old pot, so
that any water you give will immediately go to the plant, rather than
hang about going stagnant. (Some people, in this group notably Franz,
ignore this rule without ill effect; but they have a watering regime
to suit.)

Another thing is that some of the pots you get these days have
ridiculously small drainage holes. I don't know a formula, but I'd
guess a 40cm pot wants the equivalent of at least eight 10mm holes in
the bottom. (Masonry drill, from outside inwards, using the gentlest
pressure, *no hammer-action!* If you can carve out a 25-30mm hole on
purpose or by accident, it'll be better than several small holes of
equivalent area, because less likely to get blocked.)

Don't forget to put a good layer of clinker, broken pots, or stones in
the bottom before the potting compost.

Mike.

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 20:08:59 +0100, "Seb Flyte"
wrote:

Last May (2003) my daughter bought me a beautiful Acer with the above label,
about 1m high. I transferred to a big pot (40 cm diameter at the top and 40
cm high) filled with a mixture of commercial compost, homemade compost and
loam soil. I put it in a sheltered spot with no direct sunlight. Despite
regular watering and feeding its leaves shrivelled and fell by mid-August.
As you remember 2003 was our Mediterranean summer in SE England and I feared
it was dead. But thankfully it came back. This year the same problem has
re-emerged , that is leaf shrivelling in July and leaf-fall now. There is no
sign of the wonderful autumn colour mentioned in the literature and I wonder
if this is the variety is not true. The initial leaves were red, turned to
green in the centre and remained that way until starting to shrivel by end
July. I have watered really a lot and it is out of direct sunlight.
What is happening? I have had shrubs faring poorly in pots and then thriving
when planted out. This would be next thing to try. But it isn't very
scientific. I really want this plant to do well and remind me of my lovely
daughter for the rest of my natural. Any help would be gratefully accepted.

Best regards

Seb

I think you and Sacha have got it in one. I would just add that these
are not at all easy to grow well in containers, as well as the cold
wet roots in winter, in the summer those unfortunate roots are going
to get poached if wet or roasted if dry. If you can find or make a
spot with some dappled shade, shelter from drying winds and a well
drained slightly acid soil your plant will deliver the goods as
advertised



=================================================

Rod

Weed my email address to reply.
http://website.lineone.net/~rodcraddock/index.html

"Mike Lyle" wrote in message
om...

[snip]

I'd also guess (but it's only a guess) 40 cm is too big a pot: best
way is the old rule of patiently going up one size at a time, and
only
when the roots have definitely reached the outside of the old pot,
so
that any water you give will immediately go to the plant, rather
than
hang about going stagnant. (Some people, in this group notably
Franz,
ignore this rule without ill effect; but they have a watering regime
to suit.)

That is an urban legend. If there were any truth in it, all plants
planted in the open ground, which is an infinite sized pot for
practical purposes, should fail.

I planted a very young Acer palmatum atropurpureum directly in a 45 cm
pot about eight years ago and have never repotted it. It thrives.

Franz

In message , Franz Heymann
writes

"Mike Lyle" wrote in message
. com...

[snip]

I'd also guess (but it's only a guess) 40 cm is too big a pot: best
way is the old rule of patiently going up one size at a time, and
only
when the roots have definitely reached the outside of the old pot,
so
that any water you give will immediately go to the plant, rather
than
hang about going stagnant. (Some people, in this group notably
Franz,
ignore this rule without ill effect; but they have a watering regime
to suit.)

That is an urban legend. If there were any truth in it, all plants
planted in the open ground, which is an infinite sized pot for
practical purposes, should fail.

That isn't true though. The ground has usually has pretty good drainage.
A plant stuck in a pot has to rely on all the extra water escaping from
a small hole in the bottom of the pot. Block the hole and you have
stagnant water and few living things can tolerate HS (it is more
poisonous than HCN).

I grow cacti and water them like normal house plants in mid-summer but
they are planted in a very free draining grit with a small amount of
compost so they dry out between waterings.

I planted a very young Acer palmatum atropurpureum directly in a 45 cm
pot about eight years ago and have never repotted it. It thrives.

I suspect you are somewhat meagre with the watering. Then it will be OK.
Most Japanese acers grow on mountainsides and expect to be dry at the
roots from time to time.

Where I live at the moment I am having to tip water out of trays under
pots containing small trees. I am supposed to be watering them for a
neighbour but we had 100mm of rain in the last two days!

Regards,
--
Martin Brown

In article , Franz Heymann notfranz.
writes


That is an urban legend. If there were any truth in it, all plants
planted in the open ground, which is an infinite sized pot for
practical purposes, should fail.

Up to a point, Open ground is much fuller with invertebrates, roots of
other plants etc

I planted a very young Acer palmatum atropurpureum directly in a 45 cm
pot about eight years ago and have never repotted it. It thrives.

I think there's no problem with things that grow fairly quickly to fill
the pot (even if its just the roots that fill it). It takes at least a
year to get smelly compacted soil.
--
Kay
"Do not insult the crocodile until you have crossed the river"

In article , Martin Brown
writes
here I live at the moment I am having to tip water out of trays under pots
containing small trees. I am supposed to be watering them for a neighbour but we
had 100mm of rain in the last two days!

So you missed the real heavy rain then? ;-)

(round here it was up to 110mm with another 40mm promised, which I
haven't measured but I think was more than delivered!)
--
Kay
"Do not insult the crocodile until you have crossed the river"

"Franz Heymann" wrote in message ...
"Mike Lyle" wrote in message
om...

[snip]

I'd also guess (but it's only a guess) 40 cm is too big a pot: best
way is the old rule of patiently going up one size at a time, and
only
when the roots have definitely reached the outside of the old pot,
so
that any water you give will immediately go to the plant, rather
than
hang about going stagnant. (Some people, in this group notably
Franz,
ignore this rule without ill effect; but they have a watering regime
to suit.)

That is an urban legend. If there were any truth in it, all plants
planted in the open ground, which is an infinite sized pot for
practical purposes, should fail.

I planted a very young Acer palmatum atropurpureum directly in a 45 cm
pot about eight years ago and have never repotted it. It thrives.

We've done this one to death before, Franz. I still maintain that you
operate a sensitive watering regime which avoids causing damage. And
that the open ground in a typical garden doesn't resemble a container,
as it doesn't prevent water-movement and air-entrainment. Waterlogged
areas of open ground are just as deadly to most plants as water-logged
containers.

Mike.

Whilst all of the points raised previosly are valid to a certain extent, there is one critical factor that has been overlooked and that is the compost. In the wild, maples get 7 to 8 in. of rain a month during the summer and grow in free-draining volcanic soils. Replicate that and you can happily grow any Japanese maple in any size pot in full sum and in temperatures from -20 deg. c to shade temperatures of 35 deg. c without any damage providing you start with a healthy plant. As this is my first post I've kept this message short; hopefully this post has been made correctly. If you would like me to expand on the above, I will be more than happy; I speak from a small amount of experience as a commercial propagator and grower of Japanese maples for the past 25 years.

"lammas" wrote in message
...

Mike Lyle Wrote:
"Franz Heymann" wrote in message
...-
"Mike Lyle" wrote in message
om...

[snip]-

I'd also guess (but it's only a guess) 40 cm is too big a pot:
best
way is the old rule of patiently going up one size at a time, and-
only-
when the roots have definitely reached the outside of the old
pot,-
so-
that any water you give will immediately go to the plant, rather-
than-
hang about going stagnant. (Some people, in this group notably-
Franz,-
ignore this rule without ill effect; but they have a watering
regime
to suit.)-

That is an urban legend. If there were any truth in it, all
plants
planted in the open ground, which is an infinite sized pot for
practical purposes, should fail.

I planted a very young Acer palmatum atropurpureum directly in a
45
cm
pot about eight years ago and have never repotted it. It
thrives.-

We've done this one to death before, Franz. I still maintain that
you
operate a sensitive watering regime which avoids causing damage.
And
that the open ground in a typical garden doesn't resemble a
container,
as it doesn't prevent water-movement and air-entrainment.
Waterlogged
areas of open ground are just as deadly to most plants as
water-logged
containers.

Mike.
Whilst all of the points raised previosly are valid to a certain
extent, there is one critical factor that has been overlooked and
that
is the compost. In the wild, maples get 7 to 8 in. of rain a month
during the summer and grow in free-draining volcanic soils.
Replicate
that and you can happily grow any Japanese maple in any size pot in
full sum and in temperatures from -20 deg. c to shade temperatures
of
35 deg. c without any damage providing you start with a healthy
plant.
As this is my first post I've kept this message short; hopefully
this
post has been made correctly.

Not quite. Unfortunately you have tampered with the attribution
marks, so that it is no longer possible to distinguish who said what.
Remember never to touvh the "" key when you reply, and never to erase
any existing "" marks at the beginning of a line. Your software will
take care of all that automatically.

Having said that, the points you made are of course entirely valid and
very helpful.

If you would like me to expand on the
above, I will be more than happy; I speak from a small amount of
experience as a commercial propagator and grower of Japanese maples
for
the past 25 years.

You are too modest.

Franz

"Martin Brown" wrote in message
...
In message , Franz Heymann
writes

"Mike Lyle" wrote in message
. com...

[snip]

I'd also guess (but it's only a guess) 40 cm is too big a pot:
best
way is the old rule of patiently going up one size at a time, and
only
when the roots have definitely reached the outside of the old
pot,
so
that any water you give will immediately go to the plant, rather
than
hang about going stagnant. (Some people, in this group notably
Franz,
ignore this rule without ill effect; but they have a watering
regime
to suit.)

That is an urban legend. If there were any truth in it, all plants
planted in the open ground, which is an infinite sized pot for
practical purposes, should fail.

That isn't true though. The ground has usually has pretty good
drainage.
A plant stuck in a pot has to rely on all the extra water escaping
from
a small hole in the bottom of the pot.

My pots all do have adequate drainage holes in the bottom, and I have
never noticed any waterlogging in them.
You are not addressing my point, which was that all this talk of
overpotting a small plant has no basis..

Block the hole and you have
stagnant water and few living things can tolerate HS (it is more
poisonous than HCN).

I was not discussing growing a plant in an undrained pot. {:-((
If you look back, you will see that my argument is concerned with the
old wives' tale that putting a small plant in too large a pot is bad
for it. I stick to my contention that that is nonsense.

I grow cacti and water them like normal house plants in mid-summer
but
they are planted in a very free draining grit with a small amount of
compost so they dry out between waterings.

That is good practice for growing cacti.. So how does that affect my
argument about the relative sizes of the plant and its pot?

I planted a very young Acer palmatum atropurpureum directly in a 45
cm
pot about eight years ago and have never repotted it. It thrives.

I suspect you are somewhat meagre with the watering.

The right adjectives would be "lazy" and "irregular", not "meagre".
{:-))

Then it will be OK.
Most Japanese acers grow on mountainsides and expect to be dry at
the
roots from time to time.

Where I live at the moment I am having to tip water out of trays
under
pots containing small trees.
I am supposed to be watering them for a
neighbour but we had 100mm of rain in the last two days!

What on earth are these trays doing under the pots? Why don't you
suggest to the neighbour that they are probably doing more harm than
good? Pots are supposed to drain off excess water freely. Mine stand
on open paving, on detachable feet, to raise them above the surface.

Franz

"Kay" wrote in message
news
In article , Franz Heymann
notfranz.
writes


That is an urban legend. If there were any truth in it, all plants
planted in the open ground, which is an infinite sized pot for
practical purposes, should fail.

Up to a point, Open ground is much fuller with invertebrates, roots
of
other plants etc

True, but how would the absence of these components affect the
relative wellbeing of plants in "correctly sized" pots and those which
are "overpotted"?

I planted a very young Acer palmatum atropurpureum directly in a 45
cm
pot about eight years ago and have never repotted it. It thrives.

I think there's no problem with things that grow fairly quickly to
fill
the pot (even if its just the roots that fill it). It takes at least
a
year to get smelly compacted soil.

I have pots which have been in use with the same potting compost for
many years. I have never noticed any undue compaction or bad smells.
The pots which I use for growing half hardy plants like pelargoniums
usually just have the top quarter of the compost renewed each year.
My displays are no worse than those of my neighbour, who replaces all
his compost every year

Franz

"Mike Lyle" wrote in message
om...
"Franz Heymann" wrote in message
...
"Mike Lyle" wrote in message
om...

[snip]

I'd also guess (but it's only a guess) 40 cm is too big a pot:
best
way is the old rule of patiently going up one size at a time,
and
only
when the roots have definitely reached the outside of the old
pot,
so
that any water you give will immediately go to the plant, rather
than
hang about going stagnant. (Some people, in this group notably
Franz,
ignore this rule without ill effect; but they have a watering
regime
to suit.)

That is an urban legend. If there were any truth in it, all
plants
planted in the open ground, which is an infinite sized pot for
practical purposes, should fail.

I planted a very young Acer palmatum atropurpureum directly in a
45 cm
pot about eight years ago and have never repotted it. It thrives.

We've done this one to death before, Franz. I still maintain that
you
operate a sensitive watering regime which avoids causing damage. And
that the open ground in a typical garden doesn't resemble a
container,
as it doesn't prevent water-movement and air-entrainment.

I said that it was an infinite-sized container, which is what it is,
to a very good approximation.
Please reread what my actual point was, which was to debunk the idea
that overpotting a smallplant is bad for its wellbeing.

I am sorry that I dragged in the red hering about the potted Acer.
The point I tried to make about the Acer was that it started off life
by being grossly overpotted and is now seriously underpotted, and it
is still thriving.

Waterlogged
areas of open ground are just as deadly to most plants as
water-logged
containers.

Yes. However, I was not discussing waterlogged pots or waterlogged
open plots. I was commenting on the nonsense that overpotting a small
plant is bad for it. My point is that if putting a small plant in an
oversized pot is bad for it, then putting it in the open ground will
be even worse for it, which is patently nonsense.

Franz

In article , Franz Heymann notfranz.
writes

"Kay" wrote in message
news
In article , Franz Heymann
notfranz.
writes


That is an urban legend. If there were any truth in it, all plants
planted in the open ground, which is an infinite sized pot for
practical purposes, should fail.

Up to a point, Open ground is much fuller with invertebrates, roots
of
other plants etc

True, but how would the absence of these components affect the
relative wellbeing of plants in "correctly sized" pots and those which
are "overpotted"?

Most soil is getting continually churned over by earthworms etc. It
keeps the structure open and allows air in, and there seems to be a
general consensus that air in the soil is a Good Thing as far as plants
are concerned.

Absence of invertebrates means soil that just sits there getting
compacted - unless it has roots pushing their way through it.

This is not scientific. It's my rationale for something I feel I have
observed - that the soil around the edge of a pot which hasn't been
filled by its occupant is 'stale' and just Not Nice.


I have pots which have been in use with the same potting compost for
many years. I have never noticed any undue compaction or bad smells.
The pots which I use for growing half hardy plants like pelargoniums
usually just have the top quarter of the compost renewed each year.
My displays are no worse than those of my neighbour, who replaces all
his compost every year

Yeah, but those pots are fairly well stuffed, no? I reuse compost in the
same way. If it's getting regularly disturbed by roots or humans there's
no problem.
--
Kay
"Do not insult the crocodile until you have crossed the river"