Has anyone had any experience of trying this method, which apparently
was a North American Indian practice. I heard it described on a
gardening programme today as growing sweetcorn, runner beans and
courgettes/cucumbers/marrow together in the same bed to the benefit of
each. Apparently you start the sweetcorn off first, then when it has
gained a bit of height, you sow the runnerbeans, which then climb up
the sweetcorn, and then you sow your courgettes/cucumbers which can do
quite well in the environment thereby created for them.

I wonder if there are other examples of growing crops together for
mutual benefit?


Ken Cohen

The message
from (ken cohen) contains these words:

Has anyone had any experience of trying this method, which apparently
was a North American Indian practice. I heard it described on a
gardening programme today as growing sweetcorn, runner beans and
courgettes/cucumbers/marrow together in the same bed to the benefit of
each. Apparently you start the sweetcorn off first, then when it has
gained a bit of height, you sow the runnerbeans, which then climb up
the sweetcorn, and then you sow your courgettes/cucumbers which can do
quite well in the environment thereby created for them.

I wonder if there are other examples of growing crops together for
mutual benefit?

Might do well in a warmer climate, but you don't want to plant sweetcorn
out until May. By the time it has reached sufficient height to use as a
support for runners you will have missed half the season - likewise for
courgettes.

I plant out trailing marrows and runner beans in May, and grow them up
the same supports. I have grown cucumbers with them too.

You can usually utilise the ground beneath tall vegetables by sowing
radishes, spring onions, spinach etc.

You can plant garlic between rows of carrots and that is said to deter
carrot fly, but none of these is *MUTUALLY* advantageous.

--
Rusty Hinge http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/tqt.htm

Dark thoughts about the Wumpus concerto played with piano,
iron bar and two sledge hammers. (Wumpus, 15/11/03)

The message
from (ken cohen) contains these words:

Has anyone had any experience of trying this method, which apparently
was a North American Indian practice. I heard it described on a
gardening programme today as growing sweetcorn, runner beans and
courgettes/cucumbers/marrow together in the same bed to the benefit of
each. Apparently you start the sweetcorn off first, then when it has
gained a bit of height, you sow the runnerbeans, which then climb up
the sweetcorn, and then you sow your courgettes/cucumbers which can do
quite well in the environment thereby created for them.


Americans would have grown squash or pumpkin instead of the
courgettes.A variant I've read about involves making a planting mound of
earth. The angle at which the sun strikes the side of mound helps warm
the soil and ripen the crops.

I've only tried it once, in Scotland, without the mound because I
hadn't heard of it at that point. Mine didn't succeed; probably because
of our frost-free growing season being shorter wetter, cooler and having
lower light intensity than much of the USA. Short-season sweetcorn
varieties, the kind suitable for northern UK, tend not to be very tall
anyway IME. The beans got much too big for the sweetcorn before either
had flowered, and both overshadowed the courgettes. I got a few beans
and no corn or courgettes. All three grow here successfully, the
conventional way.

I wonder if there are other examples of growing crops together for
mutual benefit?

Loads; and the opposite works too..some veg families dislike being
planted near each other. Bob Flowerdew has written a book about it
called something like "Companion Planting" and you'll also find planting
tables on the internet if you search under the same phrase.

Tomatoes and basil (in a greenhouse) are a good combination.

Janet.

On 28 Dec 2003 10:32:40 -0800, (ken cohen)
wrote:

Has anyone had any experience of trying this method, which apparently
was a North American Indian practice. I heard it described on a
gardening programme today as growing sweetcorn, runner beans and
courgettes/cucumbers/marrow together in the same bed to the benefit of
each. Apparently you start the sweetcorn off first, then when it has
gained a bit of height, you sow the runnerbeans, which then climb up
the sweetcorn, and then you sow your courgettes/cucumbers which can do
quite well in the environment thereby created for them.

I wonder if there are other examples of growing crops together for
mutual benefit?

Corn & beans together are a common practice here (USA), for obvious
reasons. The corn stalk provides a 'trellis' for beans, which don't
strangle the fast-growing corn. I don't see where squash and cucumbers
come into it. Perhaps vining cucumbers? Although the fruit is a lot
heavier than that of a bean vine. Squash requires a lot more area
(and sun) than could be found at the bottom of corn stalks.

Ahhh. I think I see the light. Corn, beans (dried), and squash are
staples of Native American growing and eating. Corn & beans together
make a complete protein, and squash can't hurt. :-) Beans are
nitrogen-fixing plants, and corn likes nitrogen to nourish all those
leaves. Squash may do well in soil last used for beans, but unlikely
to do well in the shade of corn plants.

"Companion planting" usually touts the benefits of
attracting/discouraging insects, but IMHO has mostly to do with with
plants that enjoy similar conditions. Another poster mentioned
tomatoes and basil -- they both do best in full-sun, warm locations,
and are certainly companions at the dinner table, but AFAIK they don't
encourage each other in any significant way.

On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 13:20:17 GMT, Frogleg wrote:

~On 28 Dec 2003 10:32:40 -0800, (ken cohen)
~wrote:
~
~Has anyone had any experience of trying this method, which apparently
~was a North American Indian practice. I heard it described on a
~gardening programme today as growing sweetcorn, runner beans and
~courgettes/cucumbers/marrow together in the same bed to the benefit of
~each. Apparently you start the sweetcorn off first, then when it has
~gained a bit of height, you sow the runnerbeans, which then climb up
~the sweetcorn, and then you sow your courgettes/cucumbers which can do
~quite well in the environment thereby created for them.
~
~I wonder if there are other examples of growing crops together for
~mutual benefit?
~
~Corn & beans together are a common practice here (USA), for obvious
~reasons. The corn stalk provides a 'trellis' for beans, which don't
~strangle the fast-growing corn. I don't see where squash and cucumbers
~come into it. Perhaps vining cucumbers? Although the fruit is a lot
~heavier than that of a bean vine. Squash requires a lot more area
~(and sun) than could be found at the bottom of corn stalks.
~
~Ahhh. I think I see the light. Corn, beans (dried), and squash are
~staples of Native American growing and eating. Corn & beans together
~make a complete protein, and squash can't hurt. :-) Beans are
~nitrogen-fixing plants, and corn likes nitrogen to nourish all those
~leaves. Squash may do well in soil last used for beans, but unlikely
~to do well in the shade of corn plants.
~
~"Companion planting" usually touts the benefits of
~attracting/discouraging insects, but IMHO has mostly to do with with
~plants that enjoy similar conditions. Another poster mentioned
~tomatoes and basil -- they both do best in full-sun, warm locations,
~and are certainly companions at the dinner table, but AFAIK they don't
~encourage each other in any significant way.

These links are useful for background reading and also as a place
where suitable seed cultvars can be purchased. As you can imagine, not
all varieties can grow in the highly intertwined fashion,

http://www.rhs.org.uk/thegarden/pubs...03/newsrhs.asp
http://www.vidaverde.co.uk/minicollections.html

I grew sweetcorn with butternut squash underneath this year, but only
one squash plant really took off. I grew purple-flowered green
climbing beans 'Cobra' AGM with sweet peas - not quite as successfully
as I'd hoped due to the drought but I still got a lot of beans. Next
year I've got more allotment space so I'll try the cobra on their own
and perhaps plant the spares with the sweetcorn.


--
jane

Don't part with your illusions. When they are gone,
you may still exist but you have ceased to live.
Mark Twain

Please remove onmaps from replies, thanks!

In article ,
Frogleg wrote:
On 28 Dec 2003 10:32:40 -0800, (ken cohen)
wrote:

Has anyone had any experience of trying this method, which apparently
was a North American Indian practice. I heard it described on a
gardening programme today as growing sweetcorn, runner beans and
courgettes/cucumbers/marrow together in the same bed to the benefit of
each. Apparently you start the sweetcorn off first, then when it has
gained a bit of height, you sow the runnerbeans, which then climb up
the sweetcorn, and then you sow your courgettes/cucumbers which can do
quite well in the environment thereby created for them.

I wonder if there are other examples of growing crops together for
mutual benefit?

Corn & beans together are a common practice here (USA), for obvious
reasons. The corn stalk provides a 'trellis' for beans, which don't
strangle the fast-growing corn. I don't see where squash and cucumbers
come into it. Perhaps vining cucumbers? Although the fruit is a lot
heavier than that of a bean vine. Squash requires a lot more area
(and sun) than could be found at the bottom of corn stalks.

Ahhh. I think I see the light. Corn, beans (dried), and squash are
staples of Native American growing and eating. Corn & beans together
make a complete protein, and squash can't hurt. :-) Beans are
nitrogen-fixing plants, and corn likes nitrogen to nourish all those
leaves. Squash may do well in soil last used for beans, but unlikely
to do well in the shade of corn plants.

No, it's not that. Firstly, it is French beans, not runner - the latter
need much more water than squash or maize to do well and would strangle
maize. Secondly, it IS the shade that is the benefit.

In countries with an abundance of sunshine and a lack of water (e.g.
much of the south western USA, but NOT the UK), the squash gains from
a bit of shade and the maize gains from having its roots shaded. The
beans are probably just a bonus.

The point is that squash isn't limited by sun under those conditions,
but by water to its roots. And it doesn't use most of the water that
falls away from its roots in the area shaded by its leaves. Maize is
similarly limited by water, but casts a light shade if planted fairly
sparsely. Ditto French beans.

All totally inapplicable to the UK, though you can grow squash under
other plants.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

"Frogleg" wrote in message
...
On 28 Dec 2003 10:32:40 -0800, (ken cohen)
wrote:

strangle the fast-growing corn. I don't see where squash and cucumbers
come into it. Perhaps vining cucumbers? Although the fruit is a lot
heavier than that of a bean vine. Squash requires a lot more area
(and sun) than could be found at the bottom of corn stalks.

Part of the logic was that the third vegetable provided ground cover which
suppressed weeds and (I think) reduced evaporation.

--
Martin & Anna Sykes
( Remove x's when replying )
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~sykesm

"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Frogleg wrote:
On 28 Dec 2003 10:32:40 -0800, (ken cohen)
wrote:

Has anyone had any experience of trying this method, which apparently
was a North American Indian practice. I heard it described on a
gardening programme today as growing sweetcorn, runner beans and
courgettes/cucumbers/marrow together in the same bed to the benefit of
each. Apparently you start the sweetcorn off first, then when it has
gained a bit of height, you sow the runnerbeans, which then climb up
the sweetcorn, and then you sow your courgettes/cucumbers which can do
quite well in the environment thereby created for them.

I wonder if there are other examples of growing crops together for
mutual benefit?

Corn & beans together are a common practice here (USA), for obvious
reasons. The corn stalk provides a 'trellis' for beans, which don't
strangle the fast-growing corn. I don't see where squash and cucumbers
come into it. Perhaps vining cucumbers? Although the fruit is a lot
heavier than that of a bean vine. Squash requires a lot more area
(and sun) than could be found at the bottom of corn stalks.

Ahhh. I think I see the light. Corn, beans (dried), and squash are
staples of Native American growing and eating. Corn & beans together
make a complete protein, and squash can't hurt. :-) Beans are
nitrogen-fixing plants, and corn likes nitrogen to nourish all those
leaves. Squash may do well in soil last used for beans, but unlikely
to do well in the shade of corn plants.

No, it's not that. Firstly, it is French beans, not runner - the latter
need much more water than squash or maize to do well and would strangle
maize. Secondly, it IS the shade that is the benefit.

In countries with an abundance of sunshine and a lack of water (e.g.
much of the south western USA, but NOT the UK), the squash gains from
a bit of shade and the maize gains from having its roots shaded. The
beans are probably just a bonus.

The point is that squash isn't limited by sun under those conditions,
but by water to its roots. And it doesn't use most of the water that
falls away from its roots in the area shaded by its leaves. Maize is
similarly limited by water, but casts a light shade if planted fairly
sparsely. Ditto French beans.

All totally inapplicable to the UK, though you can grow squash under
other plants.

Thanks Nick I was wondering.

Ophelia

The message
from Frogleg contains these words:

"Companion planting" usually touts the benefits of
attracting/discouraging insects, but IMHO has mostly to do with with
plants that enjoy similar conditions.

There's more to it than that, concerning the chemicals in plants. Onion
family benefit some plants (like roses) but discourage others. Mexican
marigolds supposedly repel couch grass.

Another poster mentioned
tomatoes and basil -- they both do best in full-sun, warm locations,
and are certainly companions at the dinner table, but AFAIK they don't
encourage each other in any significant way.

I was speaking of tomatoes and basil grown together in a greenhouse.
In the UK, basil won't thrive except under glass; and tomatoes are as
often as not grown the same way, especially in the cool north. In the
enclosed environment of a GH, basil deters whitefly.

Janet.

Xref: kermit uk.rec.gardening:181520

On 30 Dec 2003 15:20:30 GMT, (Nick Maclaren) wrote:

In article ,
Frogleg wrote:

Ahhh. I think I see the light. Corn, beans (dried), and squash are
staples of Native American growing and eating. Corn & beans together
make a complete protein, and squash can't hurt. :-) Beans are
nitrogen-fixing plants, and corn likes nitrogen to nourish all those
leaves. Squash may do well in soil last used for beans, but unlikely
to do well in the shade of corn plants.

No, it's not that. Firstly, it is French beans, not runner - the latter
need much more water than squash or maize to do well and would strangle
maize. Secondly, it IS the shade that is the benefit.

I believe the OP mentioned runner beans. We USAsians distinguish
mostly between pole (runner, climbing) and bush beans. And the pole
types *don't* strangle corn/maize. Of course, maize probably grows a
lot faster in many US locations than in the UK.

In countries with an abundance of sunshine and a lack of water (e.g.
much of the south western USA, but NOT the UK), the squash gains from
a bit of shade and the maize gains from having its roots shaded. The
beans are probably just a bonus.

While I grew up in the southwest, I was not a gardener at the time. I
do not recall any efforts to achieve plant shading. This may be true
of extremely hot desert regions (the Phoenix area comes to mind), but
for the most part, squashes, like most veg, thrive with abundant
sunshine even in very warm climates. Farm-scale maize production
usually involves plants quite close together in rows, and if their
roots require shade, a full cornfield apparently supplies enough. A
drought is of far more concern.

I'd never heard of "three sisters" planting before. Briefly examining
web sites, I find them a little touchy-feely New Age. In fact, the 3
basic plants of my own SW might be corn, beans, and chiles.

Xref: kermit uk.rec.gardening:181520

On 30 Dec 2003 15:20:30 GMT, (Nick Maclaren) wrote:

In article ,
Frogleg wrote:

Ahhh. I think I see the light. Corn, beans (dried), and squash are
staples of Native American growing and eating. Corn & beans together
make a complete protein, and squash can't hurt. :-) Beans are
nitrogen-fixing plants, and corn likes nitrogen to nourish all those
leaves. Squash may do well in soil last used for beans, but unlikely
to do well in the shade of corn plants.

No, it's not that. Firstly, it is French beans, not runner - the latter
need much more water than squash or maize to do well and would strangle
maize. Secondly, it IS the shade that is the benefit.

I believe the OP mentioned runner beans. We USAsians distinguish
mostly between pole (runner, climbing) and bush beans. And the pole
types *don't* strangle corn/maize. Of course, maize probably grows a
lot faster in many US locations than in the UK.

In countries with an abundance of sunshine and a lack of water (e.g.
much of the south western USA, but NOT the UK), the squash gains from
a bit of shade and the maize gains from having its roots shaded. The
beans are probably just a bonus.

While I grew up in the southwest, I was not a gardener at the time. I
do not recall any efforts to achieve plant shading. This may be true
of extremely hot desert regions (the Phoenix area comes to mind), but
for the most part, squashes, like most veg, thrive with abundant
sunshine even in very warm climates. Farm-scale maize production
usually involves plants quite close together in rows, and if their
roots require shade, a full cornfield apparently supplies enough. A
drought is of far more concern.

I'd never heard of "three sisters" planting before. Briefly examining
web sites, I find them a little touchy-feely New Age. In fact, the 3
basic plants of my own SW might be corn, beans, and chiles.

Xref: kermit uk.rec.gardening:181520

On 30 Dec 2003 15:20:30 GMT, (Nick Maclaren) wrote:

In article ,
Frogleg wrote:

Ahhh. I think I see the light. Corn, beans (dried), and squash are
staples of Native American growing and eating. Corn & beans together
make a complete protein, and squash can't hurt. :-) Beans are
nitrogen-fixing plants, and corn likes nitrogen to nourish all those
leaves. Squash may do well in soil last used for beans, but unlikely
to do well in the shade of corn plants.

No, it's not that. Firstly, it is French beans, not runner - the latter
need much more water than squash or maize to do well and would strangle
maize. Secondly, it IS the shade that is the benefit.

I believe the OP mentioned runner beans. We USAsians distinguish
mostly between pole (runner, climbing) and bush beans. And the pole
types *don't* strangle corn/maize. Of course, maize probably grows a
lot faster in many US locations than in the UK.

In countries with an abundance of sunshine and a lack of water (e.g.
much of the south western USA, but NOT the UK), the squash gains from
a bit of shade and the maize gains from having its roots shaded. The
beans are probably just a bonus.

While I grew up in the southwest, I was not a gardener at the time. I
do not recall any efforts to achieve plant shading. This may be true
of extremely hot desert regions (the Phoenix area comes to mind), but
for the most part, squashes, like most veg, thrive with abundant
sunshine even in very warm climates. Farm-scale maize production
usually involves plants quite close together in rows, and if their
roots require shade, a full cornfield apparently supplies enough. A
drought is of far more concern.

I'd never heard of "three sisters" planting before. Briefly examining
web sites, I find them a little touchy-feely New Age. In fact, the 3
basic plants of my own SW might be corn, beans, and chiles.

On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 17:56:55 GMT, Janet Baraclough
wrote:

The message
from Frogleg contains these words:

"Companion planting" usually touts the benefits of
attracting/discouraging insects, but IMHO has mostly to do with with
plants that enjoy similar conditions.

There's more to it than that, concerning the chemicals in plants. Onion
family benefit some plants (like roses) but discourage others. Mexican
marigolds supposedly repel couch grass.

Odd. Marigolds are recommended here to repel soil nematodes. Never
heard of it as a weed repellent. And we *do* have "couch grass" under
several names. Garlic is supposed to benefit roses in some way. But
then, garlic is recommended for almost anything. :-) Perhaps a lot of
this is owing to a strong scent or vivid coloring appearing unusually
powerful. It would be very interesting to see studies of "companion
planting" under controlled conditions. I find it interesting (and
discouraging) that we have far more evidence of plants that *attract*
certain pests. The caterpillar of the lovely Swallowtail butterfly is
*mad* for dill and parsley. And carrots tops, if it can't find my
parsley.

On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 17:56:55 GMT, Janet Baraclough
wrote:

The message
from Frogleg contains these words:

"Companion planting" usually touts the benefits of
attracting/discouraging insects, but IMHO has mostly to do with with
plants that enjoy similar conditions.

There's more to it than that, concerning the chemicals in plants. Onion
family benefit some plants (like roses) but discourage others. Mexican
marigolds supposedly repel couch grass.

Odd. Marigolds are recommended here to repel soil nematodes. Never
heard of it as a weed repellent. And we *do* have "couch grass" under
several names. Garlic is supposed to benefit roses in some way. But
then, garlic is recommended for almost anything. :-) Perhaps a lot of
this is owing to a strong scent or vivid coloring appearing unusually
powerful. It would be very interesting to see studies of "companion
planting" under controlled conditions. I find it interesting (and
discouraging) that we have far more evidence of plants that *attract*
certain pests. The caterpillar of the lovely Swallowtail butterfly is
*mad* for dill and parsley. And carrots tops, if it can't find my
parsley.

Xref: kermit uk.rec.gardening:181520

On 30 Dec 2003 15:20:30 GMT, (Nick Maclaren) wrote:

In article ,
Frogleg wrote:

Ahhh. I think I see the light. Corn, beans (dried), and squash are
staples of Native American growing and eating. Corn & beans together
make a complete protein, and squash can't hurt. :-) Beans are
nitrogen-fixing plants, and corn likes nitrogen to nourish all those
leaves. Squash may do well in soil last used for beans, but unlikely
to do well in the shade of corn plants.

No, it's not that. Firstly, it is French beans, not runner - the latter
need much more water than squash or maize to do well and would strangle
maize. Secondly, it IS the shade that is the benefit.

I believe the OP mentioned runner beans. We USAsians distinguish
mostly between pole (runner, climbing) and bush beans. And the pole
types *don't* strangle corn/maize. Of course, maize probably grows a
lot faster in many US locations than in the UK.

In countries with an abundance of sunshine and a lack of water (e.g.
much of the south western USA, but NOT the UK), the squash gains from
a bit of shade and the maize gains from having its roots shaded. The
beans are probably just a bonus.

While I grew up in the southwest, I was not a gardener at the time. I
do not recall any efforts to achieve plant shading. This may be true
of extremely hot desert regions (the Phoenix area comes to mind), but
for the most part, squashes, like most veg, thrive with abundant
sunshine even in very warm climates. Farm-scale maize production
usually involves plants quite close together in rows, and if their
roots require shade, a full cornfield apparently supplies enough. A
drought is of far more concern.

I'd never heard of "three sisters" planting before. Briefly examining
web sites, I find them a little touchy-feely New Age. In fact, the 3
basic plants of my own SW might be corn, beans, and chiles.