Rather long history but please bear with it

I am trying to start a veg plot close to my kitchen approx size of plot 5m x
3m
Until last weekend the area was covered in:
2-4" pea gravel on
1-2" weak concrete on
plastic membrane on
levelling sand

Having removed all the above I have found the following:

One end of the plot is dry clay with all the goodness leached out by
adjacent blue lawson firs
Towards the middle the clay is grey/blue and wet
At the other end the clay is wet and sticky

I have dug this over as thoroughly as possible, but need a program to try to
establish a bed that I can work with next spring.

Will this clay actually break down given the right treatment?
My intention is to hit the area with plenty of mushroom compost and
pelletted chicken manure.
The area is at something of a low point in the garden, so I'm not surprised
that it is damp particularly considering how well it has been covered (my
guess is that this arrangement has been in place for at least 10 years).

If I use the mushroom method (and it works) and then add 4-6" topsoil and
more compost, I reckon I can get a workable bed depth of around 12". Will
this be satisfactory for most vegetables?
Can I add fresh (non-rotted) horse manure at this time of year and expect it
to break down and do some good by the spring? This would be additional to
the miushroom compost.

Finally any further suggestions for improving this area (I am reluctant to
excavate any more as it is back breaking and a difficult area to access with
serious machinary)

The plot is in a north-east corner and gets sun from about mid day to 6pm

Thanks in anticipation from a mega newbie would be gardener

Phil

In article , TheScullster
writes
Towards the middle the clay is grey/blue and wet
At the other end the clay is wet and sticky

I think you are on a hiding to nothing what ever you do
We have used the vitax clay breaker with moderate success on the areas
of the garden where there is just 'clay', but we haven't even tried to
use it on the areas where there is the sticky grey/blue clay stuff.
We also dig in about the same volume of compost and sharp sand to clay
and keep adding more compost every year. We have been here 11 years and
the first beds we tackled are just beginning to look like proper soil
)

The plot is in a north-east corner and gets sun from about mid day to 6pm

Presumably in the summer months??

So, it is seriously clayey, low and wet and doesn't get much sun?
I am sorry, but, if it were my garden, I would turn it into a bog garden
for shade loving plants (

However, we do have a FAQ on clay soil.

Improving Clay Soil by cormaic:
http://www.tmac.clara.co.uk/urgring/faqsoil1.htm
?subject=send soil

and one on shade loving plants

Plants for Shade by Kay Easton
http://www.tmac.clara.co.uk/urgring/faqshade.htm
?subject=send shade

BTW, mushroom compost is considered, by some, to be too alkaline to be
usable in large quantities in the garden since the majority of plants
like neutral to acid soil conditions.
--
Jane Ransom in Lancaster.
I won't respond to private emails that are on topic for urg
but if you need to email me for any other reason, put ransoms
at jandg dot demon dot co dot uk where you see

"TheScullster" wrote in message
...
Rather long history but please bear with it

I am trying to start a veg plot close to my kitchen approx size of plot 5m
x
3m
Until last weekend the area was covered in:
2-4" pea gravel on
1-2" weak concrete on
plastic membrane on
levelling sand

Having removed all the above I have found the following:
snip

"TheScullster" wrote in message
...
Rather long history but please bear with it

I am trying to start a veg plot close to my kitchen approx size of plot
5m
x
3m
Until last weekend the area was covered in:
2-4" pea gravel on
1-2" weak concrete on
plastic membrane on
levelling sand

Having removed all the above I have found the following:
snip



Oops. hit send by mistake.

What I was saying was, improve the drainage of the clay by digging in
gravel. The pea gravel and sand you removed would probably be ideal. Then,
try raising the level of the soil by about 6 inches by putting new topsoil
on top. This should keep the plants out of the worst of the damp, but allow
their roots to get to the mostly nutrient rich clay.

--
Martin & Anna Sykes
( Remove x's when replying )
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~sykesm

"Martin Sykes" wrote in message
news:...

TheScullster wrote:

Rather long history but please bear with it

I am trying to start a veg plot close to my kitchen approx size of plot 5m x
3m
Until last weekend the area was covered in:
2-4" pea gravel on
1-2" weak concrete on
plastic membrane on
levelling sand

Having removed all the above I have found the following:

One end of the plot is dry clay with all the goodness leached out by
adjacent blue lawson firs
Towards the middle the clay is grey/blue and wet
At the other end the clay is wet and sticky

I have dug this over as thoroughly as possible, but need a program to try to
establish a bed that I can work with next spring.

Will this clay actually break down given the right treatment?
My intention is to hit the area with plenty of mushroom compost and
pelletted chicken manure.
The area is at something of a low point in the garden, so I'm not surprised
that it is damp particularly considering how well it has been covered (my
guess is that this arrangement has been in place for at least 10 years).

If I use the mushroom method (and it works) and then add 4-6" topsoil and
more compost, I reckon I can get a workable bed depth of around 12". Will
this be satisfactory for most vegetables?
Can I add fresh (non-rotted) horse manure at this time of year and expect it
to break down and do some good by the spring? This would be additional to
the miushroom compost.

Finally any further suggestions for improving this area (I am reluctant to
excavate any more as it is back breaking and a difficult area to access with
serious machinary)

The plot is in a north-east corner and gets sun from about mid day to 6pm

Thanks in anticipation from a mega newbie would be gardener

Congratulations,.. You have clay soil..

Clay is extremly resiliant..

You will need to observe the following.. Try to avaoid compacting it
(eg walking on it) esp when wet.. Work from boards if you can and
create beds that you can reach to the middle from each side (4ft)..

Double digging is a good initial technique to start with,.. if you can
work in a load of good manure/compost this will make an initial
difference.

If not then heavy sheet composting and mulching (search for sheet
mulching on google) is the way to go, along with deep rooted cover crops
that will breach any 'panning' of the clay.. Comfrey/Lupins etc are
good ways to do this..

Surface muslches round your crops will also help.. The more organic
matter you can add to the soil, the better.

To avoid that 'dry brick' effect you mention it is better to keep
something growing on the soil at all times if poss.. Use short covers
such as mustard/phacelia in the summer. Even a cover of unseeding
annual weeds is better than bare soil.


Claybreaker or Seawead Meal both have an effect on clay soil, and may be
added in small amounts to compost.. Over the years they will reduce the
'sticky effect' of the clay and help it to gel into a crumb..

Good luck, and don't tackle too large an area at once.. You will wreck
yourself if you do this;-)
/
Jim

TheScullster wrote in message
...
Rather long history but please bear with it

I am trying to start a veg plot close to my kitchen approx size of plot 5m
x
3m
Until last weekend the area was covered in:
2-4" pea gravel on
1-2" weak concrete on
plastic membrane on
levelling sand

Having removed all the above I have found the following:

One end of the plot is dry clay with all the goodness leached out by
adjacent blue lawson firs
Towards the middle the clay is grey/blue and wet
At the other end the clay is wet and sticky

I have dug this over as thoroughly as possible, but need a program to try
to
establish a bed that I can work with next spring.

Will this clay actually break down given the right treatment?
My intention is to hit the area with plenty of mushroom compost and
pelletted chicken manure.
The area is at something of a low point in the garden, so I'm not
surprised
that it is damp particularly considering how well it has been covered (my
guess is that this arrangement has been in place for at least 10 years).

If I use the mushroom method (and it works) and then add 4-6" topsoil and
more compost, I reckon I can get a workable bed depth of around 12". Will
this be satisfactory for most vegetables?
Can I add fresh (non-rotted) horse manure at this time of year and expect
it
to break down and do some good by the spring? This would be additional to
the miushroom compost.

Finally any further suggestions for improving this area (I am reluctant to
excavate any more as it is back breaking and a difficult area to access
with
serious machinary)

The plot is in a north-east corner and gets sun from about mid day to 6pm

Thanks in anticipation from a mega newbie would be gardener

Phil


Raised beds will be easier and quicker. Just pile in sand and manure. This
is what I did, although when I say "raised beds" they were just planks of
wood wedged in the clay to make boxes if you get me. It worked anyway and I
got some great veg out of it. I added lime to one part of my plot and two
years later I was still finding particles of it coating lumps of clay - it
had never even penetrated it. I grew roses here instead planted in holes
filled with manure and peat and they did very well.

In article , Martin Sykes
writes

What I was saying was, improve the drainage of the clay by digging in
gravel. The pea gravel and sand you removed would probably be ideal. Then,
try raising the level of the soil by about 6 inches by putting new topsoil
on top. This should keep the plants out of the worst of the damp, but allow
their roots to get to the mostly nutrient rich clay.

I have to disagree about how nutritious that heavy grey/blue clay is,
Martin. Have you ever actually seen it, felt it and tried to work with
it?? You can certainly throw pots with it but it is all but impossible
to grow things in, even after years of back breaking work ((

Also, because this plot is at a low point in the garden, it will not
'drain'. As Cormaic always used to say "the water has to have somewhere
to drain *to*".
--
Jane Ransom in Lancaster.
I won't respond to private emails that are on topic for urg
but if you need to email me for any other reason, put ransoms
at jandg dot demon dot co dot uk where you see

In article 1g47f12.1eif2kw4ai4sN%00senetnospamtodayta@macunl imited.net
, Jim W writes
Congratulations,.. You have clay soil..

Clay is extremly resiliant..

There is a difference between 'clay soil' and the 'grey/blue' stuff the
OP has (


--
Jane Ransom in Lancaster.
I won't respond to private emails that are on topic for urg
but if you need to email me for any other reason, put ransoms
at jandg dot demon dot co dot uk where you see

Jane Ransom wrote in message
...
In article 1g47f12.1eif2kw4ai4sN%00senetnospamtodayta@macunl imited.net
, Jim W writes
Congratulations,.. You have clay soil..

Clay is extremly resiliant..

There is a difference between 'clay soil' and the 'grey/blue' stuff the
OP has (


Mine was bright orange, do you know if this is better or the same, or even
worse?




--
Jane Ransom in Lancaster.
I won't respond to private emails that are on topic for urg
but if you need to email me for any other reason, put ransoms
at jandg dot demon dot co dot uk where you see

In article ,
"anne" writes:
| Jane Ransom wrote in message
| ...
| In article 1g47f12.1eif2kw4ai4sN%00senetnospamtodayta@macunl imited.net
| , Jim W writes
| Congratulations,.. You have clay soil..
|
| Clay is extremly resiliant..
|
| There is a difference between 'clay soil' and the 'grey/blue' stuff the
| OP has (
|
| Mine was bright orange, do you know if this is better or the same, or even
| worse?

Dunno, but it is typically high-iron. Chalk lovers don't like it.

To the original poster:

If you still have the pea gravel, rotten concrete and sand, DON'T
dispose of it! That amount, dug into the middle (semi-drained)
part of your garden will improve it no end.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 09:22:56 +0000, Jane Ransom
wrote:

In article , TheScullster
writes
Towards the middle the clay is grey/blue and wet
At the other end the clay is wet and sticky

I think you are on a hiding to nothing what ever you do
We have used the vitax clay breaker with moderate success on the areas
of the garden where there is just 'clay', but we haven't even tried to
use it on the areas where there is the sticky grey/blue clay stuff.
We also dig in about the same volume of compost and sharp sand to clay
and keep adding more compost every year. We have been here 11 years and
the first beds we tackled are just beginning to look like proper soil
)

When the Dutch moved much of the bulb growing from the Bollenstreek,
Zuid Holland to West Friesland 80km. north, they used large
quantities of sand pumped from the IJsselmeer to break down the clay.
It seems to have worked.
--
Martin

Jane Ransom wrote in
:

In article , Martin Sykes
writes

What I was saying was, improve the drainage of the clay by digging in
gravel. The pea gravel and sand you removed would probably be ideal.
Then, try raising the level of the soil by about 6 inches by putting
new topsoil on top. This should keep the plants out of the worst of
the damp, but allow their roots to get to the mostly nutrient rich
clay.

I have to disagree about how nutritious that heavy grey/blue clay is,
Martin. Have you ever actually seen it, felt it and tried to work with
it?? You can certainly throw pots with it but it is all but impossible
to grow things in, even after years of back breaking work ((

Also, because this plot is at a low point in the garden, it will not
'drain'. As Cormaic always used to say "the water has to have
somewhere to drain *to*".


Raised beds, as Anne suggested? My old clay garden was on red, not grey
clay, but having experimented with both digging it and just piling the good
stuff on top, I'd now take the 'pile on top' approach every time. That
squelch you get when you try to pull the spade out of clay is *so*
depressing.

You don't even need to raise the bed with planks if it's wide enough, just
make mounds like barrows and plant into the top. Might not be ideal for
carrots and parsnips, but works like a good'un for beans & strawbs.

Victoria

Jane Ransom wrote:

In article 1g47f12.1eif2kw4ai4sN%00senetnospamtodayta@macunl imited.net
, Jim W writes
Congratulations,.. You have clay soil..

Clay is extremly resiliant..

There is a difference between 'clay soil' and the 'grey/blue' stuff the
OP has (


Yes, there are different types of clay.. Point taken,.. However even
'the grey blue stuff' (I know it, its very very sticky when wet, and
very free of air) the, orange stuff, and the thick creamy brown stuff we
have here in London makes a good basis for a resiliant soil..

However I DO agree that the blue/grey is the worst kind I have come
across.. It can pan into an airtight layer quite easily in my
expewrience.. Hence my advice about DEEP rooting covers (to pierce the
pan)

It just needs a little work and as much organic matter as you can lay
your hands on..

Manure, grass, newspaper, shop waste (eg cardboard and vege's) can all
go towards its upkeep and improvment in different ways.)

Look on the positive side, its still easier to work with than a gravel
pit;-)

Jim

I think you are on a hiding to nothing what ever you do

My last place was similar. If you put a few inches top soil on then you
have a few inches to grow stuff in. I tried with spuds, but found digging
them out and cleaning them off a nightmare. Over time loads of manure will
help to break it down, but for now you might just have to make do with out
root crops.

Mike

"Jane Ransom" wrote in message
...
In article , TheScullster
writes
Towards the middle the clay is grey/blue and wet
At the other end the clay is wet and sticky

I think you are on a hiding to nothing what ever you do

After two years of trying gravel, sand, loads of horse manure and compost,
'im out there finally threw in the towel and bought eight tonnes of
top-soil.

That and a load of second-hand scaffold planks turned into a series of
raised beds. This was much less hard work than all the fruitless digging and
the raised beds are so much easier to work with.

Now another eight tonnes has just disappeared into a 24ft square fruit
cage - we're looking forward to some bumper crops when he's finished moving
all the currants and berries into their new beds )