Or should that be Groundhog day (again...)?

--

Jeff

On 27/11/17 07:17, Jeff Layman wrote:
Or should that be Groundhog day (again...)?

Looks like they've come up with the right (science-based) decision at last:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-42135437

--

Jeff

On 27/11/17 19:39, Martin wrote:
On Mon, 27 Nov 2017 18:52:36 +0000, Jeff Layman
wrote:

On 27/11/17 07:17, Jeff Layman wrote:
Or should that be Groundhog day (again...)?

Looks like they've come up with the right (science-based) decision at last:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-42135437

for another 5 years!

After that time France and Belgium will be under 2 metres of weeds, and
they'll be rushing to reinstate it there (if they can find their way
around...)!

--

Jeff

On 27/11/17 20:54, Martin wrote:
On Mon, 27 Nov 2017 19:44:09 +0000, Jeff Layman
wrote:

On 27/11/17 19:39, Martin wrote:
On Mon, 27 Nov 2017 18:52:36 +0000, Jeff Layman
wrote:

On 27/11/17 07:17, Jeff Layman wrote:
Or should that be Groundhog day (again...)?

Looks like they've come up with the right (science-based) decision at last:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-42135437

for another 5 years!

After that time France and Belgium will be under 2 metres of weeds, and
they'll be rushing to reinstate it there (if they can find their way
around...)!

Only if somebody actually enforces it. How old is the Dutch ban?

Is it a similar "ban" as this?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Dr-Stahler-danadim-Progress-Universal-insectizid-20-ml/282710942827?hash=item41d2e2a46b:g:4FAAAOSwImRYdN9 0

I can't buy dimethoate in the UK, but it seems to be available in Germany.

--

Jeff

On 28/11/2017 09:11, Martin wrote:
On Mon, 27 Nov 2017 22:29:24 +0000, Jeff Layman
wrote:

On 27/11/17 20:54, Martin wrote:
On Mon, 27 Nov 2017 19:44:09 +0000, Jeff Layman
wrote:

On 27/11/17 19:39, Martin wrote:
On Mon, 27 Nov 2017 18:52:36 +0000, Jeff Layman
wrote:

On 27/11/17 07:17, Jeff Layman wrote:
Or should that be Groundhog day (again...)?

Looks like they've come up with the right (science-based) decision at last:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-42135437

for another 5 years!

After that time France and Belgium will be under 2 metres of weeds, and
they'll be rushing to reinstate it there (if they can find their way
around...)!

They will just keep on using it even thought it is "banned".

Only if somebody actually enforces it. How old is the Dutch ban?

Is it a similar "ban" as this?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Dr-Stahler-danadim-Progress-Universal-insectizid-20-ml/282710942827?hash=item41d2e2a46b:g:4FAAAOSwImRYdN9 0

I can't buy dimethoate in the UK, but it seems to be available in Germany.

Even Amazon.de sells it

On sale in lots of places in NL for example
https://agriking.nl/danadimr-progres...ildluizen.html
There a lot of warnings in the advert. It is on the RHS withdrawn list.
https://www.rhs.org.uk/advice/profile?PID=820#section-2

Seems quite a lot of the organophosphorous compounds have been withdrawn
- perhaps with good reason as they are nerve agents and rather toxic.

Some of them the more annoying pests have evolved a state of genetic
immunity that renders them almost useless. Red spider for instance.

Is it banned in UK? French attempts to get an EU ban have failed so far.

The Dutch have banned the use of Glyphosate by everybody except commercial
growers. The ban includes local authorities and amateur gardeners. There's none
on sale in garden centres. Our local authority has tried various alternatives
first steam, then a powered mechanical flail and more recently they have been
using a large powered mechanical rotary scrubbing brush to remove weeds from
pavements and brick surfaced roads (pave)

That is particularly silly since it is the use of glyphosate on a near
industrial scale by monoculture farmers of GM crops that is causing all
the problems. Glyphosate is astonishingly lethal to normal green plants
considering how benign it is towards other living things. The wetting
agents in commercial formulations are more toxic than the active
ingredient (which has an LD50 about the same as caffeine in coffee).

Used selectively against weeds in a garden it is by far the most
effective solution and much greener that trying to cook them with a
flamethrower or other "faux green" alternatives.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On 28/11/17 09:11, Martin wrote:


Only if somebody actually enforces it. How old is the Dutch ban?

Is it a similar "ban" as this?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Dr-Stahler-danadim-Progress-Universal-insectizid-20-ml/282710942827?hash=item41d2e2a46b:g:4FAAAOSwImRYdN9 0

I can't buy dimethoate in the UK, but it seems to be available in Germany.

Even Amazon.de sells it

On sale in lots of places in NL for example
https://agriking.nl/danadimr-progres...ildluizen.html
There a lot of warnings in the advert. It is on the RHS withdrawn list.
https://www.rhs.org.uk/advice/profile?PID=820#section-2

Is it banned in UK? French attempts to get an EU ban have failed so far.

Not banned, but for professional use only:
https://secure.pesticides.gov.uk/PestReg/getfullproduct.asp?productid=27730&pageno=1&origin =prodsearch

There is a lot more info here (opens a *.doc file):
https://secure.pesticides.gov.uk/PestReg/getfile.asp?documentid=28271&approvalno=20152407

It seems to be the same as the product supplied in Germany, although the
authorisation holder is Danish. It's only available in large sizes (5 -
20 litres!), and there are some specific restrictions on its use for
ornamental plant production, such as "Treatment must only be made under
‘permanent protection’ situations which provide full enclosure
(including continuous top and side barriers down to below ground level)
and which are present and maintained over a number of years."

That's a bit strange when you consider it's also approved for spraying
on fields of wheat and rye!

The Dutch have banned the use of Glyphosate by everybody except commercial
growers. The ban includes local authorities and amateur gardeners. There's none
on sale in garden centres. Our local authority has tried various alternatives
first steam, then a powered mechanical flail and more recently they have been
using a large powered mechanical rotary scrubbing brush to remove weeds from
pavements and brick surfaced roads (pave)

Aren't civil servants wonderful? They'll allow the sale of something as
toxic as dimethoate, but ban the relatively harmless glyphosate. Anyway,
that powered mechanical flail just reminds me of the "Dad's Army - Round
and Round Went the Great Big Wheel" episode, although it was probably
even less defective!

--

Jeff

On 28/11/17 11:05, Martin Brown wrote:

They will just keep on using it even thought it is "banned".

When the UK exits the EU, the average number of Directives and
Regulations brought into *effective* law in the Member States will
diminish greatly!

Only if somebody actually enforces it. How old is the Dutch ban?

Is it a similar "ban" as this?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Dr-Stahler-danadim-Progress-Universal-insectizid-20-ml/282710942827?hash=item41d2e2a46b:g:4FAAAOSwImRYdN9 0

I can't buy dimethoate in the UK, but it seems to be available in Germany.

Even Amazon.de sells it

On sale in lots of places in NL for example
https://agriking.nl/danadimr-progres...ildluizen.html
There a lot of warnings in the advert. It is on the RHS withdrawn list.
https://www.rhs.org.uk/advice/profile?PID=820#section-2

Seems quite a lot of the organophosphorous compounds have been withdrawn
- perhaps with good reason as they are nerve agents and rather toxic.

But that is the idea - they are nerve agents; that's how they work. They
have a wide range of toxicity from insect to mammalian species. Even
within species, toxicity varies markedly - I'd be (and have been in the
past) quite happy to use dimethoate, and before that malathion, but I'd
draw the line at spraying my plants with VX, sarin, or tabun!

Some of them the more annoying pests have evolved a state of genetic
immunity that renders them almost useless. Red spider for instance.

Indeed, but the more they are restricted the less become available, and
the more likely resistance will develop to those remaining.

Is it banned in UK? French attempts to get an EU ban have failed so far.

The Dutch have banned the use of Glyphosate by everybody except commercial
growers. The ban includes local authorities and amateur gardeners. There's none
on sale in garden centres. Our local authority has tried various alternatives
first steam, then a powered mechanical flail and more recently they have been
using a large powered mechanical rotary scrubbing brush to remove weeds from
pavements and brick surfaced roads (pave)

That is particularly silly since it is the use of glyphosate on a near
industrial scale by monoculture farmers of GM crops that is causing all
the problems. Glyphosate is astonishingly lethal to normal green plants
considering how benign it is towards other living things. The wetting
agents in commercial formulations are more toxic than the active
ingredient (which has an LD50 about the same as caffeine in coffee).

What are "all the problems"? The problems resulting from not using
glyphosate vastly outweigh those from using it, such as severe soil
erosion from too much ploughing.

Used selectively against weeds in a garden it is by far the most
effective solution and much greener that trying to cook them with a
flamethrower or other "faux green" alternatives.

Of course, but that option wouldn't exist if it had been banned. The
Greens don't apply logic or use science.

--

Jeff

On 28/11/17 13:55, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Tue, 28 Nov 2017 13:22:26 +0000, Jeff Layman
wrote:
Round and Round Went the Great Big Wheel"

An engineer told me before he died
And I've no reason to believe he lied
That he had a wife...

the rest isn't suitable for this NG!

It may well have inspired a certain Rolling Stones song. ;-)

--

Jeff

On 28/11/2017 15:51, Martin wrote:

By chance Face Book found another stranger that I might know. He says he is a
senior manager with KPN, the Dutch equivalent of BT. He asks people to petition
the Dutch govt to ban Glysophate because it is a poison. KPN is an utter mess
too.

Glyphosate is surprisingly non toxic to mammals considering how deadly
it is to green plants. Related derivatives are being investigated as
antimalarials since the parasite also has a shikimic acid pathway.

http://aac.asm.org/content/43/1/175.full

Towards the end - rest of it discusses other novel compounds.

KPN would have to work very hard to be as bad as Belgacom. Think phone
connectors the size of old round pin 16A plugs and 1960's BT attitudes
towards customer satisfaction and installation dates. They may have
improved recently I suppose. My landlord was not impressed when they
installed the ISDN box full of blinking lights as a prominent feature in
the dining room - but they did it on his watch so not my problem.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown