Is it OK to put vegetarian human poo in the veg plot?
Or in the compost heap?

In article ,
says...
In the UK farmers today frequently spread
animal manures such as slurry from cowsheds onto fields where crops
are subsequently grown.


Around here, the muck spreading is only done on arable fields.

They also seem to choose to spread it one field that have
public footpaths in the the day before a fine weekend is due!

--
Roger T

700 ft up in Mid-Wales

On Mon, 21 Mar 2016 09:22:19 +0000, User wrote:

Is it OK to put vegetarian human poo in the veg plot?
Or in the compost heap?

Is it O.K. to shit in the drinking water?

If you are not O.K. with that then human waste should be carefully treated
to make sure no pathogens or parasites are able to stay in the food chain.

In Suffolk, AFAIK, properly treated human waste is spread on the fields.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/managing...rry-and-silage

is a useful reference.

Basically, you need to have your sewage tested to make sure it meets the
Sludge Regulations.

Further:

"You must not use sewage sludge and septic tank sludge:

@ when fruit - other than fruit trees - or vegetables are growing or are
to be harvested in the soil at the time of use
@ without considering plants’ nutrient needs
@ if it will damage soil, surface water or groundwater quality"

and

"Untreated or raw sewage sludge

You cannot apply untreated or raw sewage sludge to land that is used for
growing crops, whether they are food crops - including crops for livestock
- or non-food crops."

So I would say from that - no, it is not suitable to go on the veg plot or
in the compost heap.

People die from faecal contamination of food and water.
Even vegetarians.

Cheers


Dave R

--
Windows 8.1 on PCSpecialist box

On 21/03/2016 17:53, David wrote:
On Mon, 21 Mar 2016 09:22:19 +0000, User wrote:

Is it OK to put vegetarian human poo in the veg plot?
Or in the compost heap?

Is it O.K. to shit in the drinking water?

If you are not O.K. with that then human waste should be carefully treated
to make sure no pathogens or parasites are able to stay in the food chain.

In Suffolk, AFAIK, properly treated human waste is spread on the fields.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/managing...rry-and-silage

is a useful reference.

Basically, you need to have your sewage tested to make sure it meets the
Sludge Regulations.

Further:

"You must not use sewage sludge and septic tank sludge:

@ when fruit - other than fruit trees - or vegetables are growing or are
to be harvested in the soil at the time of use
@ without considering plants’ nutrient needs
@ if it will damage soil, surface water or groundwater quality"

and

"Untreated or raw sewage sludge

You cannot apply untreated or raw sewage sludge to land that is used for
growing crops, whether they are food crops - including crops for livestock
- or non-food crops."

So I would say from that - no, it is not suitable to go on the veg plot or
in the compost heap.

People die from faecal contamination of food and water.
Even vegetarians.

Cheers


Dave R

When I was young and living outside Hastings we had a cesspit and every
spring we would dredge some of the contents out by bucket and pour it
into the trench we had dug out for the runner beans, then cover with
around 8 inches or so of soil and the beans went on top. Always had good
crops and no ill effects.
We also got unpasteurised Jersey milk form the farm next door.
But then we were not brought up soft.
David@a still rain free side of Swansea bay

On 21/03/16 19:19, David Hill wrote:
We also got unpasteurised Jersey milk form the farm next door.

One of my relatives caught brucellosis from unpasteurised
"green top" milk on the Isle of Wight. It took a year to
find the diagnosis for his symptoms.

On 21/03/16 17:53, David wrote:
People die from faecal contamination of food and water.
Even vegetarians.

Just so. OTOH it looks like it /might/ saves vegan...

From http://www.veganhealth.org/b12/int

"Iranian Villagers

Halstead et al. (8) reported that some Iranian villagers with very little animal
product intake (dairy once a week, meat once a month) had normal B12 levels.
None had megaloblastic anemia. Their average B12 level was 411 pg/ml which was
quite high considering their diet. The authors speculated this could be because
their diets, which were very low in protein, allowed for B12-producing bacteria
to ascend into the ileum where the B12 could be absorbed. They also speculated
that because they lived among their farm animals and their living areas were
littered with feces, they picked up enough B12 through contamination.

Halstead et al.'s 1960 report was in contrast to Wokes et al.'s 1955 report (9)
in which numerous British vegans were found to have neurological symptoms of B12
deficiency."

In article ,
says...
Did you mean pastoral. i.e. those used exclusively for grazing? Arable
fields are those on which crops are grown.




Doh, Yes I did. I realised just after I sent it, then the phone
rang, so I never got back tilll now.

Sorry

--
Roger T

700 ft up in Mid-Wales

On 21/03/2016 19:37, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 21/03/16 19:19, David Hill wrote:
We also got unpasteurised Jersey milk form the farm next door.

One of my relatives caught brucellosis from unpasteurised
"green top" milk on the Isle of Wight. It took a year to
find the diagnosis for his symptoms.

+1
In the late 50s my wife, Mil and mILS sister caught it from unpasterised
milk from a local farmer. MiLs sister recovered fairly quickly, my wife
could still suffer attacks 40+ yearts later. MiL suffered until she died
in the late 90s. She wis mostly housebound for that time.

Having seen the effects, unpasteurised mik or milk products are not
worth the risk.

Malcolm

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On Mon, 21 Mar 2016 09:22:19 -0000 (UTC),
User ] wrote:
Is it OK to put vegetarian human poo in the veg plot?

No. Vegetarian or not is not the question.

Or in the compost heap?

Yes.

The compost toilet system works in one way or other, but in the end, you
compost the mixture of sawdust, leafs, « BRF » or whatever dry material
ou have and “the rest� for a considerably long time before use as
compost.

As long as “official� surveys are lacking, the opinions are devided.
Some use this compost on trees only, most do not care. Some choose
certain vegetables (beans, field been, tomato etc...).

Some of the rules, that I follow personally:

- - Never mix types of comost. Applies also to “turbo-compost�, made with
dung and “activated� straw

- - Cover the compost during the first year, in which it is collected at a
spot which should be inaccessible to animals. There is no need to add
water and the chemical balance is pratically always ideal.

- - Turn and separate the compost after the first year. We use dry leafs
in the toilet because they compost better than sawdust. After one
year, you do no longer recognize the “origin� of the material 20cm
below the surface.

- - Leave it for another year covered with straw or other dry material,
but exposed to the weather.

- - From there on, do as you please. But the compost is still only between
1 and 2 years old which does not qualify it for general use. It is
probably best with tomatos, cucurbitacea or must be mixed with the
actual soil of the garden.

- - People who consume important amounts of pharmaceutics cannot use
this toilet and must go somewhere else. - We have never encountered
somebody to whom this applied. The importance of realistic quantities
is always overrated.

The brochure that is given out by french associations who promote these
toilet-systems talk about 100 l of drinking water being saved each day
and of 400 l which are not polluted from 1 water-closet and thus more
easily cleaned, if it is used by a family with two children.

I do not know the volumes, but we are only two. In my home I can no
longer condone polluting drinking water the way that most people do
without reflection. Composting is just the next logical step.

Shoot at will.

Michael

- --
Location: Lower Normandy (Orne), France
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I am sorry to have to get back to this once again.

Composting “poo� or anything else (the expression is: “anything else �)
is not a matter of believes. Where it is a matter of opinion, you should
give as much background as possible about how you arrive at your
opinion.

If this leads to a cascade of “I believe because it is my opinion
because the other guy's opinion was ...� than think again.

Those who live in France have the advantage that hands-on training is
possible with some associations and the « bureaux d'étude » who prepare
for you the project of domestic wetparks and other ways to clean your
waste-water, can talk about compost toilets.

About all associations who deal « agro-écologie » will have an “opinion�
and oftentimes experience to share.

Michael

On Tue, 22 Mar 2016 07:46:27 +0100,
Michael Uplawski wrote:

On Mon, 21 Mar 2016 09:22:19 -0000 (UTC),
User ] wrote:
Is it OK to put vegetarian human poo in the veg plot?

No. Vegetarian or not is not the question.

Or in the compost heap?

Yes.

The compost toilet system works in one way or other, but in the end, you
compost the mixture of sawdust, leafs, « BRF » or whatever dry material
ou have and “the rest� for a considerably long time before use as
compost.

As long as “official� surveys are lacking, the opinions are devided.
Some use this compost on trees only, most do not care. Some choose
certain vegetables (beans, field been, tomato etc...).

Some of the rules, that I follow personally:

- - Never mix types of comost. Applies also to “turbo-compost�, made with
dung and “activated� straw

- - Cover the compost during the first year, in which it is collected at a
spot which should be inaccessible to animals. There is no need to add
water and the chemical balance is pratically always ideal.

- - Turn and separate the compost after the first year. We use dry leafs
in the toilet because they compost better than sawdust. After one
year, you do no longer recognize the “origin� of the material 20cm
below the surface.

- - Leave it for another year covered with straw or other dry material,
but exposed to the weather.

- - From there on, do as you please. But the compost is still only between
1 and 2 years old which does not qualify it for general use. It is
probably best with tomatos, cucurbitacea or must be mixed with the
actual soil of the garden.

- - People who consume important amounts of pharmaceutics cannot use
this toilet and must go somewhere else. - We have never encountered
somebody to whom this applied. The importance of realistic quantities
is always overrated.

The brochure that is given out by french associations who promote these
toilet-systems talk about 100 l of drinking water being saved each day
and of 400 l which are not polluted from 1 water-closet and thus more
easily cleaned, if it is used by a family with two children.

I do not know the volumes, but we are only two. In my home I can no
longer condone polluting drinking water the way that most people do
without reflection. Composting is just the next logical step.

Shoot at will.

Michael

- --
Location: Lower Normandy (Orne), France
GnuPG brainpoolP512r1/5C2A258D 2015-10-02 [expires: 2017-10-01]
sub brainpoolP512r1/53461AFA 2015-10-02 [expires: 2017-10-01]


--
Location: Lower Normandy (Orne), France
GnuPG brainpoolP512r1/5C2A258D 2015-10-02 [expires: 2017-10-01]
sub brainpoolP512r1/53461AFA 2015-10-02 [expires: 2017-10-01]

On Tue, 22 Mar 2016 08:00:36 +0100, Michael Uplawski wrote:

About all associations who deal « agro-écologie » will have an “opinion�
and oftentimes experience to share.

Thanks Michael that was very interesting, I didn't know about these
techniques. Would think they'd be very interesting in dry areas. Not
usually our case!

Wasn't really going to comment on this thread as I know nothing about it,
but as it happens am reading Earnest Wilson's 1913 memoir of traveling
and plant hunting in Western China and Thibet; he mentions the
agricultural practice of the peasants is to spread their waste directly
in the highland fields, without composting. This earth is otherwise very
nutrient poor. Wilson doesn't comment on this beyond saying they've been
doing it for millenia.

Hope you're enjoying the early spring, they say finally the wind is
changing to the west in a couple of days. None too soon, it's very dry.

-E
--
Gardening in Lower Normandy

On 22 Mar 2016 10:47:12 GMT,
Emery Davis wrote:
On Tue, 22 Mar 2016 08:00:36 +0100, Michael Uplawski wrote:

About all associations who deal « agro-écologie » will have an “opinion�
and oftentimes experience to share.

Thanks Michael that was very interesting, I didn't know about these
techniques. Would think they'd be very interesting in dry areas. Not
usually our case!

The toilet *and* its content are very dry, I ensure you. As regards
hygiene, this is more interesting as adding tons of chemicals to the
already polluted drinking water... ;-

and plant hunting in Western China and Thibet; he mentions the
agricultural practice of the peasants is to spread their waste directly
in the highland fields, without composting.

This is often the case on rice-fields.
In India, projects to increase hygiene include “wandering� dry toilets
over holes in the ground, and bananas being planted on each previously
“used� spot. This is apparently a great success.

I do not know about bananas, but rice is an extremely strange and
awesome ... plant. Being. Thing. Does it grow because or despite all
human endeavour to make it so... ;-)

Michael

This earth is otherwise very
nutrient poor. Wilson doesn't comment on this beyond saying they've been
doing it for millenia.

Hope you're enjoying the early spring, they say finally the wind is
changing to the west in a couple of days. None too soon, it's very dry.

-E


--
Location: Lower Normandy (Orne), France
GnuPG brainpoolP512r1/5C2A258D 2015-10-02 [expires: 2017-10-01]
sub brainpoolP512r1/53461AFA 2015-10-02 [expires: 2017-10-01]

In article u,
says...

I am sorry to have to get back to this once again.

Composting ?poo? or anything else (the expression is: ?anything else ?)
is not a matter of believes. Where it is a matter of opinion, you should
give as much background as possible about how you arrive at your
opinion.

If this leads to a cascade of ?I believe because it is my opinion
because the other guy's opinion was ...? than think again.

Those who live in France have the advantage that hands-on training is
possible with some associations and the « bureaux d'étude » who prepare
for you the project of domestic wetparks and other ways to clean your
waste-water, can talk about compost toilets.

About all associations who deal « agro-écologie » will have an ?opinion?
and oftentimes experience to share.

Regardless of "opinion", they are all subject to EU laws and
regulation regarding the use of raw sewage on commercial crops, even
grazing pasture; and the protection of waterways from fertiliser run-
off.

http://ec.europa.eu/environment/waste/sludge/

In Britain, commercial producers are subject to the EU regulations
PLUS UK legislation; and in rural areas, both farms and domestic homes
which produce a run-off from a raw non-mains sewage system, are also
subject to protection of wetlands and waterways.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/managing...nd-fertilisers

http://www.theguardian.com/environme...ient-recovery-
fertiliser-human-excrement-slough

I lived for years in my grandparents house which had zero domestic
plumbing; the lavatory was a bucket in an outhouse (no chemicals
involved). When full, the contents were buried two spades deep in a
grave-like trench in the veg garden, covered with some of the excavated
earth. Chicken-house cleanings, and kitchen waste, also went in the
trench. When the dumping reached the end of one trench a new one was
dug; the filled trench became a bed for the next pea and bean crops and
eventually, as crop rotations moved across the garden, root crops. IOW,
over decades the entire large vegetable garden was repeatedly, and only,
fertilised by the excretions of the family (and chickens). It produced
terrific crops. The well supplying drinking water was about 50 yards
away.

We use human urine, sheep and horse manure in our compost heaps.
However, since we're both handling that compost a year or so later (to
spread it on top of the veg garden, no digging in) I don't include human
manure. Cat and dog waste, definitely not; however small the risk of
toxocara it's just not worth taking IMO.

Janet.

In article ,
says...

On Tue, 22 Mar 2016 08:00:36 +0100, Michael Uplawski wrote:

About all associations who deal « agro-écologie » will have an ?opinion?
and oftentimes experience to share.

Thanks Michael that was very interesting, I didn't know about these
techniques. Would think they'd be very interesting in dry areas. Not
usually our case!

Wasn't really going to comment on this thread as I know nothing about it,
but as it happens am reading Earnest Wilson's 1913 memoir of traveling
and plant hunting in Western China and Thibet; he mentions the
agricultural practice of the peasants is to spread their waste directly
in the highland fields, without composting. This earth is otherwise very
nutrient poor. Wilson doesn't comment on this beyond saying they've been
doing it for millenia.

I saw this being done there, in 1986. Great crops :-)

I also used an immaculate rural commune unisex lavatory which consisted
of a long tiled squat trench (used by several people at once). Urine ran
off to a separate collector. A little old lady with a hand shovel and
bucket, was watching and waiting to collect any pooh.

Janet.

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On Tue, 22 Mar 2016 12:56:02 -0000,
Janet wrote:
In article u,
says...
About all associations who deal « agro-écologie » will have an ?opinion?
and oftentimes experience to share.

Regardless of "opinion", they are all subject to EU laws and
regulation regarding the use of raw sewage on commercial crops, even
grazing pasture; and the protection of waterways from fertiliser run-
off.

We are not doing the same thing, I hope that we are not dealing
different topics in an attempt to through them all together.

I lived for years in my grandparents house which had zero domestic
plumbing; the lavatory was a bucket in an outhouse (no chemicals
involved). When full, the contents were buried two spades deep in a
grave-like trench in the veg garden, covered with some of the excavated
earth.

That is not what a dry toilet represents. It is a different topic. I
mention this as you chose it for a response to my own posting.

Michael

- --
Location: Lower Normandy (Orne), France
GnuPG brainpoolP512r1/5C2A258D 2015-10-02 [expires: 2017-10-01]
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