Was wondering about this as I watched a very welcome rain shower this
morning, but couldn't find much information. Hoping one of our resident
chemists might know something about it.

We all know that root oxygenation is super important for our plants and
in pots can be difficult if soil becomes compacted and/or water logged.
One remedy I've found is using hydrogen peroxide to super-saturate water
for pots, where the plants seem to really appreciate it.

Watching the rain I imagined that rainfall has a high dissolved oxygen
saturation point. But then I wondered, since raindrops form at fairly
high altitudes, maybe this is not so? But anyway rolling across the roof
and down a pipe should oxygenate the rainwater, so that upon filling the
water butt should have healthy saturation levels. After sitting around
for a month though, perhaps not... it does get a bit of a stink to it.

Would this water be essentially anoxic and so problematic to water with?
Or does pouring it into buckets and shaking it around oxygenate
sufficiently?

Enquiring minds, and all that... TIA for any insights.

-E

--
Gardening in Lower Normandy

Chris Hogg wrote:

Why not rig up a solar-powered fish-tank bubbler in your butt

That's a bit harsh.

--
Tom Raider

On 05/07/2015 13:37, Chris Hogg wrote:
On 5 Jul 2015 11:02:17 GMT, Emery Davis wrote:

Was wondering about this as I watched a very welcome rain shower this
morning, but couldn't find much information. Hoping one of our resident
chemists might know something about it.

We all know that root oxygenation is super important for our plants and
in pots can be difficult if soil becomes compacted and/or water logged.
One remedy I've found is using hydrogen peroxide to super-saturate water
for pots, where the plants seem to really appreciate it.

Watching the rain I imagined that rainfall has a high dissolved oxygen
saturation point. But then I wondered, since raindrops form at fairly
high altitudes, maybe this is not so? But anyway rolling across the roof
and down a pipe should oxygenate the rainwater, so that upon filling the
water butt should have healthy saturation levels. After sitting around
for a month though, perhaps not... it does get a bit of a stink to it.

Would this water be essentially anoxic and so problematic to water with?
Or does pouring it into buckets and shaking it around oxygenate
sufficiently?

Enquiring minds, and all that... TIA for any insights.

-E

I've never come across the use of hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) for
watering pot-plants. What strength do you use? I imagine it would have
to be really quite dilute to void damaging the finer roots; H2O2 is a
powerful oxidising agent, after all.

As to rain, I think regardless of how high up the droplets form, by
the time they reach the ground they will be saturated with oxygen. But
in a water butt there's a lot of sludge and organic detritus that gets
washed in over time, which will absorb that oxygen, and the limited
open surface and lack of agitation will slow the rate of dissolution
of fresh oxygen. How long that water takes to recover after it's been
tapped off from the butt, I don't know, but I would think it would
take more than just pouring it between buckets a couple of times.

These really are 'how long is a piece of string' questions.

Why not rig up a solar-powered fish-tank bubbler in your butt, to keep
it fresh?

Sounds painful.

On Sun, 05 Jul 2015 13:37:24 +0100, Chris Hogg wrote:

I've never come across the use of hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) for watering
pot-plants. What strength do you use? I imagine it would have to be
really quite dilute to void damaging the finer roots; H2O2 is a powerful
oxidising agent, after all.


Seems to be a standard technique according to google, I discovered it
because the dope gro-- erm, "indoor culture fellows" seem to use it a
lot. They're a good source for pots (no pun intended) and stuff like
mycorrhizae. I know a few other maple folks that use H2O2.

As for strength, lets see if I've got the arithmetic right. The
recommended dosage is 2.5/10000, at 35%. I have that as ~ 0.009%. I got
some 35% on a finger once, the skin turned bleach white.

As to rain, I think regardless of how high up the droplets form, by the
time they reach the ground they will be saturated with oxygen. But in a

I don't know much about the molecular dynamics of surface tension, but I
thought that would be key to the question. Imagined a chemist might know
offhand if that was a red herring.

water butt there's a lot of sludge and organic detritus that gets washed
in over time, which will absorb that oxygen, and the limited open
surface and lack of agitation will slow the rate of dissolution of fresh
oxygen. How long that water takes to recover after it's been tapped off
from the butt, I don't know, but I would think it would take more than
just pouring it between buckets a couple of times.

These really are 'how long is a piece of string' questions.


Well yes, many speculations can be cast this way. But in essence I'm
asking if watering with "stale" water entails some risk, or at best lack
of benefit, for the plant.

Why not rig up a solar-powered fish-tank bubbler in your butt, to keep
it fresh?

My son has long favoured the "solar-powered raisin peeler" as the perfect
Rube Goldberg device, so he would certainly approve of this
suggestion! In practice, it's in deep shade, anyway.



--
Gardening in Lower Normandy

On Sun, 05 Jul 2015 13:37:24 +0100, Chris Hogg wrote:


Why not rig up a solar-powered fish-tank bubbler in your butt, to keep
it fresh?

Most water butts that I have seen are too deep to aerate without a
high pressure compressor. It would be an interesting challenge to make
a solar powered one.

My water butt is about five foot deep. My mains powered aquarium
aerator gives up at about two foot deep. A pipe with an air lift water
pump may work but in my aquarium days I never made one that long.

Steve

--
Neural Network Software for Windows http://www.npsnn.com

EasyNN-plus More than just a neural network http://www.easynn.com

On Sun, 05 Jul 2015 15:13:42 +0100, David Hill wrote:

Sounds painful.

Amazing, I didn't even get it... :/



--
Gardening in Lower Normandy

On 5/07/2015 9:02 PM, Emery Davis wrote:
Was wondering about this as I watched a very welcome rain shower this
morning, but couldn't find much information. Hoping one of our resident
chemists might know something about it.

We all know that root oxygenation is super important for our plants

I didn't know that and this post is the first I've ever heard of it.

and
in pots can be difficult if soil becomes compacted and/or water logged.
One remedy I've found is using hydrogen peroxide to super-saturate water
for pots, where the plants seem to really appreciate it.

Watching the rain I imagined that rainfall has a high dissolved oxygen
saturation point. But then I wondered, since raindrops form at fairly
high altitudes, maybe this is not so? But anyway rolling across the roof
and down a pipe should oxygenate the rainwater, so that upon filling the
water butt should have healthy saturation levels. After sitting around
for a month though, perhaps not... it does get a bit of a stink to it.

Would this water be essentially anoxic and so problematic to water with?
Or does pouring it into buckets and shaking it around oxygenate
sufficiently?

Enquiring minds, and all that... TIA for any insights.

Indeed. Now I'm going to have to find out about "root oxygenation".
I'd always been told that rainwater was good for plants because it
contained nitrogen.

On 6/07/2015 10:37 PM, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Mon, 06 Jul 2015 22:23:31 +1000, Fran Farmer
wrote:

On 5/07/2015 9:02 PM, Emery Davis wrote:
Was wondering about this as I watched a very welcome rain shower this
morning, but couldn't find much information. Hoping one of our resident
chemists might know something about it.

We all know that root oxygenation is super important for our plants

I didn't know that and this post is the first I've ever heard of it.

and
in pots can be difficult if soil becomes compacted and/or water logged.
One remedy I've found is using hydrogen peroxide to super-saturate water
for pots, where the plants seem to really appreciate it.

Watching the rain I imagined that rainfall has a high dissolved oxygen
saturation point. But then I wondered, since raindrops form at fairly
high altitudes, maybe this is not so? But anyway rolling across the roof
and down a pipe should oxygenate the rainwater, so that upon filling the
water butt should have healthy saturation levels. After sitting around
for a month though, perhaps not... it does get a bit of a stink to it.

Would this water be essentially anoxic and so problematic to water with?
Or does pouring it into buckets and shaking it around oxygenate
sufficiently?

Enquiring minds, and all that... TIA for any insights.

Indeed. Now I'm going to have to find out about "root oxygenation".
I'd always been told that rainwater was good for plants because it
contained nitrogen.

Well, that's true. One of the main pollutants from car exhausts are
oxides of nitrogen. These dissolve in rainwater and contribute
nitrates to the soil. Whether there's actually enough to make a
significant difference to soil fertility, I don't know. Before cars
came along, lightning was the main source oxides of nitrogen in the
atmosphere.


Thanks for that Chris. That's pretty much in line with what I'd read on
nitrogen in rain.

I'm not finding much information on root oxygenation. I'm only finding
information in hydroponics sites (which accords with the indoor growers
of certain substances as a source) but that doesn't seem to have a great
deal of application to gardens or my water tanks (=huge butts). I'll
keep hunting.

In article ,
Fran Farmer wrote:

I'm not finding much information on root oxygenation. I'm only finding
information in hydroponics sites (which accords with the indoor growers
of certain substances as a source) but that doesn't seem to have a great
deal of application to gardens or my water tanks (=huge butts). I'll
keep hunting.

Try looking for root aeration. I am pretty sure that plants that
can live in bogs and stagnant water can live without oxygen at
their roots, but almost all others need it.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On Mon, 06 Jul 2015 12:15:05 +0100, Chris Hogg wrote:

On 5 Jul 2015 14:26:10 GMT, Emery Davis wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jul 2015 13:37:24 +0100, Chris Hogg wrote:

[]
As for strength, lets see if I've got the arithmetic right. The
recommended dosage is 2.5/10000, at 35%. I have that as ~ 0.009%.

That's 2.5 ml of 35% peroxide in 10 litres?


Yup.

I note that 35% H2O2 isn't available in the UK and more. Apparently it's
illegal to sell it. Maximum strength allowed these days is 12%. So that
would be 7.5ml of 12% in 10 litres.

That's curious, I wonder why it's been controlled. Can't blame this one
on the EU apparently! The stuff I get is called something like
'oxypower' and is labeled for hydroponic use.


I got some 35% on a finger once, the skin turned bleach white.

Doesn't it just!

Still not sure how it happened as I do where gloves when measuring the
stuff!

-E




--
Gardening in Lower Normandy

On 06/07/15 20:08, Emery Davis wrote:


I note that 35% H2O2 isn't available in the UK and more. Apparently it's
illegal to sell it. Maximum strength allowed these days is 12%. So that
would be 7.5ml of 12% in 10 litres.

That's curious, I wonder why it's been controlled.

It was used to synthesise acetone peroxide, a simple but powerful
explosive favoured by terrorists as it does not contain nitrogen. Unlike
most other explosives, the basic requirements (35% H2O2 and acetone)
were widely available.

More info at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetone_peroxide

--

Jeff

On 7/07/2015 12:03 AM, Nick Maclaren wrote:
In article ,
Fran Farmer wrote:

I'm not finding much information on root oxygenation. I'm only finding
information in hydroponics sites (which accords with the indoor growers
of certain substances as a source) but that doesn't seem to have a great
deal of application to gardens or my water tanks (=huge butts). I'll
keep hunting.

Try looking for root aeration.

Thanks for the tip. I will try that term.

I am pretty sure that plants that
can live in bogs and stagnant water can live without oxygen at
their roots, but almost all others need it.

Yes, it makes sense to me that non bog plants do need oxygen at their
roots, but what I'm wondering about is whether a high level of oxygen in
water is needed by any plant that is not a bog plant and is not grown
hydroponically.

I've become fixated on the OPs claim that everyone knows that root
oxygenation is super important for plants. I didn't know that and I
still can't find anything that explains it or shows that it is known or
important other than as it applies to hydroponics. I can see why it
might be important in hydroponics but I want to know why I missed out on
knowing this or even if I should know this.

On 05/07/2015 12:02, Emery Davis wrote

Was wondering about this as I watched a very welcome rain shower this
morning, but couldn't find much information. Hoping one of our resident
chemists might know something about it.

We all know that root oxygenation is super important for our plants and
in pots can be difficult if soil becomes compacted and/or water logged.
One remedy I've found is using hydrogen peroxide to super-saturate water
for pots, where the plants seem to really appreciate it.

I am not convinced it is super important for most potted plants. It
might be beneficial for some where the roots have particularly high
oxygen demand epiphytes and succulent plants that naturally grow in
rough gravel or scree for instance.

Watching the rain I imagined that rainfall has a high dissolved oxygen
saturation point. But then I wondered, since raindrops form at fairly
high altitudes, maybe this is not so? But anyway rolling across the roof
and down a pipe should oxygenate the rainwater, so that upon filling the
water butt should have healthy saturation levels. After sitting around
for a month though, perhaps not... it does get a bit of a stink to it.

If it smells then it is essentially anoxic which isn't too surprising
with it kept in the dark with a layer of organic sludge at the bottom.

Would this water be essentially anoxic and so problematic to water with?
Or does pouring it into buckets and shaking it around oxygenate
sufficiently?

Not really.

Enquiring minds, and all that... TIA for any insights.

-E

I am not convinced that that many plants need their roots looking after
so carefully. Some orchids and cacti have very high root oxygen
requirements but most things can get by with some flooding.

I have even known some pretty rare cacti and succulents survive a couple
of weeks under water but I wouldn't recommend trying it.
(malfunction of automatic watering system whilst on holiday)

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

In article ,
Martin Brown wrote:
On 05/07/2015 12:02, Emery Davis wrote

Was wondering about this as I watched a very welcome rain shower this
morning, but couldn't find much information. Hoping one of our resident
chemists might know something about it.

We all know that root oxygenation is super important for our plants and
in pots can be difficult if soil becomes compacted and/or water logged.
One remedy I've found is using hydrogen peroxide to super-saturate water
for pots, where the plants seem to really appreciate it.

I am not convinced it is super important for most potted plants. It
might be beneficial for some where the roots have particularly high
oxygen demand epiphytes and succulent plants that naturally grow in
rough gravel or scree for instance.

Actually, it is. Most bought plants are in peat-based composts, which
degrade to impermeable humus. 'John Innes' composts are SO much better
for plants that are actually kept. Few plants can handle totally
anaerobic conditions at the root, though some can.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On Tue, 07 Jul 2015 08:12:04 +0100, Martin Brown wrote:

I am not convinced that that many plants need their roots looking after
so carefully. Some orchids and cacti have very high root oxygen
requirements but most things can get by with some flooding.

It is very important for maples, which is mostly what I grow in pots.
It's pretty easy to see when you try to grow one in dense, water-logged
soil. Anyone growing maples knows about this.

Even worse that established grafts is trying to bring up selected
seedlings or understock.

-E



--
Gardening in Lower Normandy