There is no Phyophthera on alder that I can see around where I live
(Tyne and Wear) but to be extra sure I want to sterilise the seeds
before I stratify them and plant them out. I am told that hydrogen
peroxide is "the stuff". 6% solution is available in Sainsbury's as a
mouth wash (not for me, thank you!) but I want to take advice before I
do it. I don't want to kill the seeds!

Michael Bell

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"Michael Bell" wrote in message
. uk...
There is no Phyophthera on alder that I can see around where I live
(Tyne and Wear) but to be extra sure I want to sterilise the seeds
before I stratify them and plant them out. I am told that hydrogen
peroxide is "the stuff". 6% solution is available in Sainsbury's as a
mouth wash (not for me, thank you!) but I want to take advice before I
do it. I don't want to kill the seeds!

Michael Bell

You realise it's pointless? Bless your lovely heart for trying though.
I suspect you are on the autistic spectrum. and no-one wants to say it won't
work to be kind.
So I will.
There is nothing you can do to get alder seeds to feed the world. It's a
good idea, but impossible.

On Sat, 18 Oct 2014 11:55:43 +0100, Michael Bell wrote:

There is no Phyophthera on alder that I can see around where I live
(Tyne and Wear) but to be extra sure I want to sterilise the seeds
before I stratify them and plant them out. I am told that hydrogen
peroxide is "the stuff". 6% solution is available in Sainsbury's as a
mouth wash (not for me, thank you!) but I want to take advice before I
do it. I don't want to kill the seeds!


Hi Michael,

I don't use hydrogen peroxide for seeds, but rather a few drops of
Bordeaux mixture in a 24 hour soak before stratification. So I don't
know the right answer, except to say that hydrogen peroxide at 6% seems
strong and might kill the seeds. I use 35% (diluted to 2.5 parts per
10,000) for root oxygenation. The 35% will take your skin off in a hurry!

Good luck with the germination,

-E
--
Gardening in Lower Normandy

In message
Emery Davis wrote:

On Sat, 18 Oct 2014 11:55:43 +0100, Michael Bell wrote:

There is no Phyophthera on alder that I can see around where I live
(Tyne and Wear) but to be extra sure I want to sterilise the seeds
before I stratify them and plant them out. I am told that hydrogen
peroxide is "the stuff". 6% solution is available in Sainsbury's as a
mouth wash (not for me, thank you!) but I want to take advice before I
do it. I don't want to kill the seeds!


Hi Michael,

I don't use hydrogen peroxide for seeds, but rather a few drops of
Bordeaux mixture in a 24 hour soak before stratification. So I don't
know the right answer, except to say that hydrogen peroxide at 6% seems
strong and might kill the seeds. I use 35% (diluted to 2.5 parts per
10,000) for root oxygenation. The 35% will take your skin off in a hurry!

Good luck with the germination,

-E


Thank you everybody for your constructive comments. After lots of
trawling (the spell-checker won't accept "trawling", but surely it's
acceptable!?) the web I have found that this comes from many reputable
sources and seems workable:

Clean the rubbish off the seeds and put them in a suitable container.

Pour on 4% Hypochlorite and add a very little detergent.
(Domestos, widely available in the shops, contains 4.5% hypochlorite
and contains detergent, so I'll use it)

Stir and stand for 30 minutes.

Pour off the hypochlorite and wash the seeds thoroughly and stratify
or germinate as required

For seeds which need a high degree of sterility, eg. orchids, you need
fancier handling methods to make sure they don't pick infection
*after* this treatment, but for "ordinary" seeds they are not needed.

So this is what I will do. I will also try letting the seeds stand in
the hypochlorite for longer and see how long it takes to kill them.
It's good to know your safety margins!

Michael Bell
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"Emery Davis" wrote
Michael Bell wrote:

There is no Phyophthera on alder that I can see around where I live
(Tyne and Wear) but to be extra sure I want to sterilise the seeds
before I stratify them and plant them out. I am told that hydrogen
peroxide is "the stuff". 6% solution is available in Sainsbury's as a
mouth wash (not for me, thank you!) but I want to take advice before I
do it. I don't want to kill the seeds!

I don't use hydrogen peroxide for seeds, but rather a few drops of
Bordeaux mixture in a 24 hour soak before stratification. So I don't
know the right answer, except to say that hydrogen peroxide at 6% seems
strong and might kill the seeds. I use 35% (diluted to 2.5 parts per
10,000) for root oxygenation. The 35% will take your skin off in a hurry!


I believe they use Hydrogen peroxide to wake up Protea seed, at least that
is what I was told to do.
--
Regards. Bob Hobden.
Posted to this Newsgroup from the W of London, UK

On 20/10/2014 17:28, Bob Hobden wrote:

I believe they use Hydrogen peroxide to wake up Protea seed, at least that
is what I was told to do.

There has been some success with it, but the best thing to use is smoke
(as smoke water or paper discs which have been exposed to smoke, rested
on the seed compost, and gently sprayed to allow the smoke to soak into
the compost).

--

Jeff

"Jeff Layman" wrote in message
...
On 20/10/2014 17:28, Bob Hobden wrote:

I believe they use Hydrogen peroxide to wake up Protea seed, at least
that
is what I was told to do.

There has been some success with it, but the best thing to use is smoke
(as smoke water or paper discs which have been exposed to smoke, rested on
the seed compost, and gently sprayed to allow the smoke to soak into the
compost).

--

Jeff


that's enough, Jeff. If you want to be cruel I'm not allowing it.

In message
Chris Hogg wrote:

On Tue, 21 Oct 2014 18:54:09 +0100, "Christina Websell"
wrote:


"Jeff Layman" wrote in message
...
On 20/10/2014 17:28, Bob Hobden wrote:

I believe they use Hydrogen peroxide to wake up Protea seed, at least
that
is what I was told to do.

There has been some success with it, but the best thing to use is smoke
(as smoke water or paper discs which have been exposed to smoke, rested on
the seed compost, and gently sprayed to allow the smoke to soak into the
compost).

--

Jeff


that's enough, Jeff. If you want to be cruel I'm not allowing it.

It's very unlikely that smoke germination would be appropriate for
Alder, if that's what you think Jeff is suggesting. It's an
evolutionary adaptation by plants exposed to wild-fires. Many South
African and Australian plants respond well. It may be because young
seedlings won't survive a wild-fire, but after fire has swept through,
there's nothing left to burn, and seedlings can get established to the
point at which they stand a chance of surviving the next fire.
Chemicals in the smoke trigger the germinating process.

I've used it myself on a number of occasions to encourage germination
of South African proteaceae (as Jeff said) and SA heathers. Can't say
how successful it was though, because I didn't do an unsmoked test
alongside it.

See http://tinyurl.com/kqzl5jd

This idea of smoke to kill fungi, and maybe ME, is a nasty turn in
this thread. But I workng with a partner in another project, to grow
sequoia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sequoia_(genus)

from seeds collected from the magnificent stand at Minsteracres
retreat centre. But the seeds just won't grow. It seems that one of
the tricks (still under investigation) is to used "smoked water" to
simulate the after effects of a forest fire and the signal to the
seeds that now is the time to germinate. And "smoked water" is
available for sale!

Michael Bell



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On 22/10/2014 05:46, Michael Bell wrote:
In message
Chris Hogg wrote:

On Tue, 21 Oct 2014 18:54:09 +0100, "Christina Websell"
wrote:


"Jeff Layman" wrote in message
...
On 20/10/2014 17:28, Bob Hobden wrote:

I believe they use Hydrogen peroxide to wake up Protea seed, at least
that
is what I was told to do.

There has been some success with it, but the best thing to use is smoke
(as smoke water or paper discs which have been exposed to smoke, rested on
the seed compost, and gently sprayed to allow the smoke to soak into the
compost).

--

Jeff


that's enough, Jeff. If you want to be cruel I'm not allowing it.

It's very unlikely that smoke germination would be appropriate for
Alder, if that's what you think Jeff is suggesting. It's an
evolutionary adaptation by plants exposed to wild-fires. Many South
African and Australian plants respond well. It may be because young
seedlings won't survive a wild-fire, but after fire has swept through,
there's nothing left to burn, and seedlings can get established to the
point at which they stand a chance of surviving the next fire.
Chemicals in the smoke trigger the germinating process.

I've used it myself on a number of occasions to encourage germination
of South African proteaceae (as Jeff said) and SA heathers. Can't say
how successful it was though, because I didn't do an unsmoked test
alongside it.

See http://tinyurl.com/kqzl5jd

This idea of smoke to kill fungi, and maybe ME, is a nasty turn in
this thread. But I workng with a partner in another project, to grow
sequoia

I don't know how this thread became OT. I was just replying to Bob's
message on waking up Protea seed. As Chris said, it can be used
successfully for SA, and in my experience, Western Australian proteaceae
seed. I doubt it would have any beneficial effect on alder seed, and
might inhibit it from germinating. AFAIAA smoke had no effect on fungi.

--

Jeff

Michael Bell wrote:

It seems that one of
the tricks (still under investigation) is to used "smoked water" to
simulate the after effects of a forest fire and the signal to the
seeds that now is the time to germinate. And "smoked water" is
available for sale!

I have a couple bottles in the pantry; it's called "liquid smoke" and used
for flavoring if you don't have the means to smoke cook things (mostly, but
not exclusively, large bits of pig)*. Hadn't thought of treating seeds
with it!

*I can't imagine that's exclusively an American thing.


--
Gary Woods AKA K2AHC- PGP key on request, or at home.earthlink.net/~garygarlic
Zone 5/4 in upstate New York, 1420' elevation. NY WO G

"Gary Woods" wrote in message
news
Michael Bell wrote:

It seems that one of
the tricks (still under investigation) is to used "smoked water" to
simulate the after effects of a forest fire and the signal to the
seeds that now is the time to germinate. And "smoked water" is
available for sale!

I have a couple bottles in the pantry; it's called "liquid smoke" and used
for flavoring if you don't have the means to smoke cook things (mostly,
but
not exclusively, large bits of pig)*. Hadn't thought of treating seeds
with it!

*I can't imagine that's exclusively an American thing.


--
Gary Woods AKA K2AHC- PGP key on request, or at
home.earthlink.net/~garygarlic
Zone 5/4 in upstate New York, 1420' elevation. NY WO G

No you can get it here for seed that needs smoke and I believe Bee keepers
use a liquid smoke as well not sure if that is the same formulation though.

--
Charlie, Gardening in Cornwall
Holders of National Collections of Clematis viticella
and Lapageria rosea cvs
http://www.roselandhouse.co.uk

"Chris Hogg" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 21 Oct 2014 18:54:09 +0100, "Christina Websell"
wrote:


"Jeff Layman" wrote in message
...
On 20/10/2014 17:28, Bob Hobden wrote:

I believe they use Hydrogen peroxide to wake up Protea seed, at least
that
is what I was told to do.

There has been some success with it, but the best thing to use is smoke
(as smoke water or paper discs which have been exposed to smoke, rested
on
the seed compost, and gently sprayed to allow the smoke to soak into the
compost).

--

Jeff


that's enough, Jeff. If you want to be cruel I'm not allowing it.

It's very unlikely that smoke germination would be appropriate for
Alder, if that's what you think Jeff is suggesting. It's an
evolutionary adaptation by plants exposed to wild-fires. Many South
African and Australian plants respond well. It may be because young
seedlings won't survive a wild-fire, but after fire has swept through,
there's nothing left to burn, and seedlings can get established to the
point at which they stand a chance of surviving the next fire.
Chemicals in the smoke trigger the germinating process.

I've used it myself on a number of occasions to encourage germination
of South African proteaceae (as Jeff said) and SA heathers. Can't say
how successful it was though, because I didn't do an unsmoked test
alongside it.



Michael is unlikely to breed huge alder seeds to feed the world (although
it would be great) so I suggest you don't encourage him too much because it
will lead to him being very disappointed.
And I wouldn't like that.

In article ,
says...

Michael is unlikely to breed huge alder seeds to feed the world (although
it would be great) so I suggest you don't encourage him too much because it
will lead to him being very disappointed.
And I wouldn't like that.

iirc his posting to urg, Michael has been happily pursuing his alder
objective for many years, without the least sign of progress, success,
disappointment or discouragement.

IOW he is happy to be obsessed with growing his hearts desire. Pretty
much like most longterm gardeners here.

Janet

In article ,
Janet wrote:
In article ,
says...

Michael is unlikely to breed huge alder seeds to feed the world (although
it would be great) so I suggest you don't encourage him too much because it
will lead to him being very disappointed.
And I wouldn't like that.

iirc his posting to urg, Michael has been happily pursuing his alder
objective for many years, without the least sign of progress, success,
disappointment or discouragement.

IOW he is happy to be obsessed with growing his hearts desire. Pretty
much like most longterm gardeners here.

The difference between a world-changing visionary and someone just
riding a hobby-horse can be told only long after the event. I don't
give him a high chance of pulling this off, but I commend his
vision and determination.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

In message
Chris Hogg wrote:

On Thu, 23 Oct 2014 20:57:17 +0100, "Christina Websell"
wrote:


"Chris Hogg" wrote in message
. ..
On Tue, 21 Oct 2014 18:54:09 +0100, "Christina Websell"
wrote:


"Jeff Layman" wrote in message
...
On 20/10/2014 17:28, Bob Hobden wrote:

I believe they use Hydrogen peroxide to wake up Protea seed, at least
that
is what I was told to do.

There has been some success with it, but the best thing to use is smoke
(as smoke water or paper discs which have been exposed to smoke, rested
on
the seed compost, and gently sprayed to allow the smoke to soak into the
compost).

--

Jeff


that's enough, Jeff. If you want to be cruel I'm not allowing it.

It's very unlikely that smoke germination would be appropriate for
Alder, if that's what you think Jeff is suggesting. It's an
evolutionary adaptation by plants exposed to wild-fires. Many South
African and Australian plants respond well. It may be because young
seedlings won't survive a wild-fire, but after fire has swept through,
there's nothing left to burn, and seedlings can get established to the
point at which they stand a chance of surviving the next fire.
Chemicals in the smoke trigger the germinating process.

I've used it myself on a number of occasions to encourage germination
of South African proteaceae (as Jeff said) and SA heathers. Can't say
how successful it was though, because I didn't do an unsmoked test
alongside it.



Michael is unlikely to breed huge alder seeds to feed the world (although
it would be great) so I suggest you don't encourage him too much because it
will lead to him being very disappointed.
And I wouldn't like that.



I don't know what gives you the idea that either Jeff or I were
encouraging him in what we said. Between us we made it clear that
smoke treatment would neither sterilise nor promote germination of
alder seeds. Threads on usenet drift. Michael has been around long
enough to know that.

Indeed so. Smoke is a diversion from my main interest: alder. But it
might be of interest in getting Sequoia to germinate.

Michael Bell


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