On 17/11/2013 16:04, David Hill wrote:
On 17/11/2013 15:54, Sacha wrote:
On 2013-11-16 21:39:54 +0000, Ophelia said:

"Fuschia" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 14:10:26 -0000, "Ophelia"
wrote:

Apologies if you have already seen this.

This was posted in a political group. I hope it can be of use to
some.
Best
O
------------------------------------------------------------

If this was as serious as the quoted opinion makes out, where are the
strident complaints from the seed merchants - the Thompson & Morgans
of the UK and across Europe?
It would cost them a fortune to register every one of their varieties.
If they are not worried, should we be?

Good point. You would expect to hear something from them if it were
the case. Have they not been heard to make any comment at all?

We get our seeds from Jelitto, which is a German company. I'll ask Ray
if he knows of any particular worries that they have. And email to
will either come to me or get forwarded to
me by someone.


I'd have thought that the RHS would have had something to say about it.

It was mentioned in the last issue of The Garden. Unfortunately it
didn't look like informed commentary.
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley

On 2013-11-17 09:09:59 +0000, David in Normandy said:

On 17/11/2013 09:44, Road_Hog wrote:
On Saturday, November 16, 2013 2:23:11 PM UTC, David in Normandy wrote:

Reading your post, it seems the new law is a very bad thing for

gardeners. Presumably the law is intended to be a benefit for somebody

but who supposed to benefit from this draconian legislation?



Large corporations.

The EU and all other large legislative bodies are in the pay of
corporations (plutocracy) and eveything is done for their benefit. But
it will always be advertised as being for our benefit, in this case,
they'll probably say it is for health benefit and keeping us from
accidently eating bad plants.


It does seem like one of those ridiculous laws that will benefit almost
nobody. Thinking about it, I can't even see the large corporations
gaining from this as it will mean they will have to abandon seeds /
plants with low sales volumes and restrict their sales to large volume
sales e.g. those to farmers. Can't see how anybody will benefit to be
honest, except the bureaucrats and labs that will do the testing. It
sounds like the sort of insane bureaucracy that only French politicians
could dream up - laws for the sake of laws to make more artificial jobs
for bureaucrats.

Well I will continue saving seeds from one year to the next and
continue to swap seeds and cuttings with friends and neighbours. I can
see this hurting small nurseries, garden centres and small seed and
plant producers but gardeners will continue sourcing seeds and plants
from each other as always. Though I guess organised seed swaps (at
meet-ups or online) may become illegal?

Gardeners will be hanging around street corners wearing dark glasses
and raincoats stopping passers-by "Psst! Do you want some illegal
runner bean seeds."

Love this! Parsnip pushers! ;-)
--
Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.com
South Devon

On 2013-11-17 16:37:48 +0000, Stewart Robert Hinsley said:

On 17/11/2013 16:04, David Hill wrote:
On 17/11/2013 15:54, Sacha wrote:
On 2013-11-16 21:39:54 +0000, Ophelia said:

"Fuschia" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 14:10:26 -0000, "Ophelia"
wrote:

Apologies if you have already seen this.

This was posted in a political group. I hope it can be of use to
some.
Best
O
------------------------------------------------------------

If this was as serious as the quoted opinion makes out, where are the
strident complaints from the seed merchants - the Thompson & Morgans
of the UK and across Europe?
It would cost them a fortune to register every one of their varieties.
If they are not worried, should we be?

Good point. You would expect to hear something from them if it were
the case. Have they not been heard to make any comment at all?

We get our seeds from Jelitto, which is a German company. I'll ask Ray
if he knows of any particular worries that they have. And email to
will either come to me or get forwarded to
me by someone.


I'd have thought that the RHS would have had something to say about it.

It was mentioned in the last issue of The Garden. Unfortunately it
didn't look like informed commentary.

Do you mean the piece by Lia Leendertz? Not sure if that was the last
issue. But I did think that it gave a good perspective from the
amateur gardener's pov. No? There was an editorial on it too.
--
Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.com
South Devon

"Timothy Murphy" wrote in message
...

Unfortunately - since I am a firm, even fanatical, believer in the EU -
anti-EU feeling is at least as strong in France (le Pen),
Italy (Beppe Grillo and now Berlusconi), Spain and many other EU members.
The EU has lost the trust of its citizens,
and a political organisation cannot continue in that state for long.

In my view radical reform is essential if the EU is to survive,
starting with election of the EU Commission,
and in particular its president.
The US would not have survived if its president had been chosen
in the way the EU president is.

The majority of senior bureaucrats in Brussels have lost faith
in the project, and are simply pushing paper until they retire.

Simply supporting the EU, without demanding its reform,
is in my view counter-productive.

May I copy this to another place please? Of course I would remove your name
and any identity.

--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/shop/

I'd have thought that the RHS would have had something to say about it.

It was mentioned in the last issue of The Garden. Unfortunately it
didn't look like informed commentary.

Do you mean the piece by Lia Leendertz? Not sure if that was the last
issue. But I did think that it gave a good perspective from the amateur
gardener's pov. No? There was an editorial on it too.


This item is a good overview of the thing
http://www.hortweek.com/news/1211444...ding-industry/

On 17/11/2013 20:49, Ophelia wrote:


"Timothy Murphy" wrote in message
...

Unfortunately - since I am a firm, even fanatical, believer in the EU -
anti-EU feeling is at least as strong in France (le Pen),
Italy (Beppe Grillo and now Berlusconi), Spain and many other EU members.
The EU has lost the trust of its citizens,
and a political organisation cannot continue in that state for long.

In my view radical reform is essential if the EU is to survive,
starting with election of the EU Commission,
and in particular its president.
The US would not have survived if its president had been chosen
in the way the EU president is.

The majority of senior bureaucrats in Brussels have lost faith
in the project, and are simply pushing paper until they retire.

Simply supporting the EU, without demanding its reform,
is in my view counter-productive.

May I copy this to another place please? Of course I would remove your
name and any identity.

If you mean the whole piece about the proposals
then it can be found in full at
http://www.realseeds.co.uk/seedlaw.html
Which looks as if it's where it started
David

In article ,
Timothy Murphy wrote:
Martin wrote:

It's not obvious to me why the UK press specialises in creating EU myths.
It doesn't happen elsewhere in the EU AFAIK

Unfortunately - since I am a firm, even fanatical, believer in the EU -
anti-EU feeling is at least as strong in France (le Pen),
Italy (Beppe Grillo and now Berlusconi), Spain and many other EU members.
The EU has lost the trust of its citizens,
and a political organisation cannot continue in that state for long.

In my view radical reform is essential if the EU is to survive,
starting with election of the EU Commission,
and in particular its president.
The US would not have survived if its president had been chosen
in the way the EU president is.

The majority of senior bureaucrats in Brussels have lost faith
in the project, and are simply pushing paper until they retire.

Simply supporting the EU, without demanding its reform,
is in my view counter-productive.

Unfortunately, the same is true (only more strongly) about our
so-called democratic institutions.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On 2013-11-17 21:40:43 +0000, Martin said:

On Sun, 17 Nov 2013 18:53:21 +0000, sacha wrote:

On 2013-11-17 09:09:59 +0000, David in Normandy said:

On 17/11/2013 09:44, Road_Hog wrote:
On Saturday, November 16, 2013 2:23:11 PM UTC, David in Normandy wrote:

Reading your post, it seems the new law is a very bad thing for

gardeners. Presumably the law is intended to be a benefit for somebody

but who supposed to benefit from this draconian legislation?



Large corporations.

The EU and all other large legislative bodies are in the pay of
corporations (plutocracy) and eveything is done for their benefit. But
it will always be advertised as being for our benefit, in this case,
they'll probably say it is for health benefit and keeping us from
accidently eating bad plants.


It does seem like one of those ridiculous laws that will benefit almost
nobody. Thinking about it, I can't even see the large corporations
gaining from this as it will mean they will have to abandon seeds /
plants with low sales volumes and restrict their sales to large volume
sales e.g. those to farmers. Can't see how anybody will benefit to be
honest, except the bureaucrats and labs that will do the testing. It
sounds like the sort of insane bureaucracy that only French politicians
could dream up - laws for the sake of laws to make more artificial jobs
for bureaucrats.

Well I will continue saving seeds from one year to the next and
continue to swap seeds and cuttings with friends and neighbours. I can
see this hurting small nurseries, garden centres and small seed and
plant producers but gardeners will continue sourcing seeds and plants
from each other as always. Though I guess organised seed swaps (at
meet-ups or online) may become illegal?

Gardeners will be hanging around street corners wearing dark glasses
and raincoats stopping passers-by "Psst! Do you want some illegal
runner bean seeds."

Love this! Parsnip pushers! ;-)

They will wear a red carnation and carry a folded copy of the Daily Mail.

The Daily Mail?! How very dare you! Amateur Gardening, surely?!
--

Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.com
South Devon
www.helpforheroes.org.uk

On Sun, 17 Nov 2013 22:34:06 +0100, Martin wrote:



All ABOUT THE New EU Seed Law


Reading your post, it seems the new law is a very bad thing for
gardeners. Presumably the law is intended to be a benefit for somebody
but who supposed to benefit from this draconian legislation?

People who buy seeds.


How? It is so draconian it throws the baby out with the bath water.

Read the draft regulation and ignore the works of rent-a-rumour posts.

There have been discussions about this proposed PRM legislation in
April, May and September this year (see 'more EC tomfoolery' 25 April
and 'have you heard about this' 12 May and 'blog mentioning possible
EU plant regs' 17 September).

At the time of the April thread I checked the draft legislation and
gave a brief summary on 26 April which indicated that the main purpose
of the new reg was to pull the many existing Council Directives (12
from memory) concerning plant reproductive material together under one
piece of legislation and that the impact on gardeners was likely to be
minimal as the controls, concerning a fairly limited list of seed
species, were directed at commercial enterprises.

From a quick look it appears that the legislation has not yet been
agreed but the current proposal summary includes the following text
which supports the above -

'The complexity and fragmentation of the existing legislation is
likely to perpetuate existing uncertainties and discrepancies in its
implementation between the Member States. This creates an uneven
playing field for professional operators on the single market.

Developments in the areas of agriculture, horticulture, forestry,
plant breeding and making available on the market of plant
reproductive material have shown that the legislation needs to be
simplified and further adapted to the developments of the sector by
replacing the existing Directives by a single Regulation.'

It goes on to cover the need to improve 'The traceability of any plant
reproductive material' which is in line with the introduction of farm
to retail traceability of many foodstuffs during the last few years.

For anyone who is really interested a short European Parliament
summary is at
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/oeil/p...64628&t=e&l=en

--
rbel

Gardeners will be hanging around street corners wearing dark glasses
and raincoats stopping passers-by "Psst! Do you want some illegal
runner bean seeds."

Love this! Parsnip pushers! ;-)

They will wear a red carnation and carry a folded copy of the Daily Mail.

The Daily Mail?! How very dare you! Amateur Gardening, surely?!


Not to mention the Pea do files and the Has beans

Hello All

Further to my earlier post if you go to the Facebook page for Garden Organic
UK you will find a report on a meeting between DEFRA and membersof the UK
seed industry which admits that some of the exemptions accepted earlier have
been removed.

Apparently there is to be a further meeting with the European seed industry
this week, after which they are expecting to launch a major campaign.

John

--
John Rye
Hadleigh IPSWICH England
http://www.ryepad.plus.com
--- Using RISC OS Six on an Acorn StrongArm RiscPC and under VARPC ---

I've asked the RHS about this.

Briefly:

They are worried, and do not consider it a non-issue.

They're working with DEFRA and other organisations such as the Horticultural Trades Association and Garden Organic to make sure the needs of the horticultural industry are covered.

They're suggesting that an already published description should suffice in lieu of registration but this hasn't been agreed yet. They point out even £100 fee would cause problems for small suppliers.

They suggest that we contact our MEPs.

On 26/11/13 11:21, kay wrote:

'John Rye[_2_ Wrote:
;995456']Hello All

Further to my earlier post if you go to the Facebook page for Garden
Organic
UK you will find a report on a meeting between DEFRA and membersof the
UK
seed industry which admits that some of the exemptions accepted earlier
have
been removed.

Apparently there is to be a further meeting with the European seed
industry
this week, after which they are expecting to launch a major campaign.

John


I've asked the RHS about this.

Briefly:

They are worried, and do not consider it a non-issue.

They're working with DEFRA and other organisations such as the
Horticultural Trades Association and Garden Organic to make sure the
needs of the horticultural industry are covered.

They're suggesting that an already published description should suffice
in lieu of registration but this hasn't been agreed yet. They point out
even £100 fee would cause problems for small suppliers.

They suggest that we contact our MEPs.

They might also do well to understand how similar groups
have partially succeeded when confronted with similar
proposed regulations.

My (previously posted) summary is below.

Note that there are things that it was important and
useful for /individuals/ like us to do as and when
alerted by those "in the loop" ...

------------

There are very interesting parallels between these proposals
and the EASA regulation of European Airways regulations.
I have been keeping a watchful eye /on the sidelines/ on
the progress of some aspects of the EASA regulations;
people may or may not find the parallels illuminating.

The EASA regulations were drafted by people that understood
Commercial Air Transport (CAT i.e. airliners et al), but who
have very little understanding of General Aviation (GA i.e.
light aircraft, hot air balloons, gliders et al). The
resulting heavyweight cumbersome regulations were fine
for CAT, but disastrous for GA.

It took a /lot/ of hard work by /many/ people knowledgable
about GA over maybe 5 /years/ to mitigate /some/ of the worst
effects of the regulations. Standing on the sidelines and
moaning is useless. What succeeded was working within the
system plus individuals making /formal/ comments when
invited to do so. In this context "formal" means in the
comment forms on the EU website. Be prepared to read the
regulations and individually make comments; multiple
identically worded comments are treated as a single
comment.

Nonetheless, the regulations are now enacted, and will be
fully implemented in 2015. In the meantime various
organisations are having to decide how they will interpret
the regulations.

In the past couple of weeks the government and CAA have
announced they are trying to get rid of red tape; the
latest statements about how the regs will be interpreted
are specific and positive and useful. Having a private
pilot (Grant Schapps) in the centre of government has
apparently been useful.

Summary:
- the new regs will happen
- there is a chance to shape them, but it requires
long dedicated hard work by individuals
- the new government attitude might help, particularly
if you can get DEFRA onside