"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message
...
In article , Baz
wrote:

Capitals are regarded as shouting.
Perhaps you can set your keyboard to whispering.
Only joking.

But can I bottle.........
Joking again.

God help me, I am seriously ****ed off with the trolls and just
plain idiots who keep ignoring the simple fact that the vegetables
you want to bottle are non-acid :-(

I don't know exactly what the chances are of a non-gassy,
non-tainting botulinus infection are, but the consequences of one
are likely to be death for anyone eating the result. If I were
bottling vegetables, I would do as we did in the UK in the 1950s
and use pressure. Fruit isn't a problem, and you don't need
pressure.

There were good reasons that most people in the UK up to the
1950s used bottling only for fruit, and preserved vegetables by
salting, drying etc. Pressure bottling is a pain to do, and
constrains the amounts you do and size of bottles.

But it's your life ....


All the above is true.
You could do it by putting your filled jars in a pressure cooker.
You would need to be certain all parts of the contents were heated through.
You would need to be certain they were cool (unpressurised before opening
the pressure cooker.
So even then a bit dodgy.

This is how tinned meats are manufacuted commercially, ie they are sealed in
the tin an cooked in an autoclave at high steam pressure.

On Sat, 07 Sep 2013 20:02:37 +0100, David Hill
wrote:

On 07/09/2013 18:33, sacha wrote:
On 2013-09-07 15:58:40 +0000, Pam Moore said:

On Sat, 7 Sep 2013 14:27:51 +0100, Janet wrote:

In article , says...

I was wondering, instead of wasting gas and electricity to sterilize
the
jars, if citric acid and sodium bisulphite(as in winemaking
sterilization)
would do the trick.

No, but you only need to have the oven on low for 20 mins so hardly a
vast expense.

Wash jars in hot soapy water, rinse, drain, pack the empty wet jars
standing upright in a roasting tin and put it in the oven. Turn oven on
to 120 C, once it's reached temp 10 mins should do it.

I've never bottled anything and only occasionally make jam.
When making small amounts of jam, I sterilised my jars ( washed,
rinsed and drained) by half-filling them with water and giving them a
few minutes boiling in the microwave. Is this good enough?

Pam in Bristol

A hot wash (& dry) in the hottest setting dishwasher is recommended by
quite a lot of jam makers. I haven't made jam or marmalde for ages but
I used to do that and have never yet poisoned anyone. To keep them at a
heat that wouldn't allow them to crack when filled with hot marmalade, I
put them on a baking tray in the bottom of the Aga but I'm sure a warm
setting on an oven would do the same job.

I'm not going to go out to buy a dishwasher just to heat jam jars.
I'm still making jam, though I haven't done any yet this year, also I
make a tomato and apple chutney.
One thing I want to try is instead of lids or papers and covers for the
jars (I've actually been using cling film for the last few years) is to
try candle wag poured on when the jam is still warm/hot it will cap off
the contents.,
The wife who is Canadian tells me that is what her mother used to do.
David @ a now damp side of Swansea Bay, well just 3 or 4 very light
showers so far but a build up of cloud.

I have a jug of hard paraffin wax which I use and reuse on the odd
occasions I make jam. My mother did it as did her mother. I bought it
from a chemist many years ago. I stand the jug in the hot oven for a
while to melt it. When the jars are filled I just pour the melted wax
on top. Make sure the jars are fairly full so the wax isn't below the
rim. It makes a perfect seal in my experience

Pam in Bristol

In article ,
says...

You could do it by putting your filled jars in a pressure cooker.
You would need to be certain all parts of the contents were heated through.

Have you never used a pressure cooker?

You would need to be certain they were cool (unpressurised before opening
the pressure cooker.

Nobody who has ever used a pressure cooker would find it remotely
difficult to depressurise or cool.

So even then a bit dodgy.

Using a pressure cooker is not in the least bit uncertain difficult or
dodgy; just unnecessary in this instance.


http://www.1900s.org.uk/1940s50s-preserving-fruit.htm
http://www.kilnerjar.co.uk/Preserving/guides/how-to-
preserve#.UixMLH8WYuc

Janet

In article , nospamigg1937
@yahoo.co.uk says...

On Sat, 07 Sep 2013 20:02:37 +0100, David Hill
wrote:

I'm not going to go out to buy a dishwasher just to heat jam jars.

No need; you have an oven.

One thing I want to try is instead of lids or papers and covers for
the
jars (I've actually been using cling film for the last few years) is to
try candle wag poured on when the jam is still warm/hot it will cap off
the contents.,

Could be hard (or expensive) to find modern candles which are food
safe.

I have a jug of hard paraffin wax which I use and reuse on the odd

What a faff! I use a waxed paper disc (buy the right size for your
jars) laid wax side down on top of the marmalade while piping hot.
Followed by a screw top lid.

Discs are available from Lakeland; old lids can be cleaned boiled and
re-used, or you can buy new ones online.

Janet

(Nick Maclaren) wrote in
:

In article , Baz
wrote:

Capitals are regarded as shouting.
Perhaps you can set your keyboard to whispering.
Only joking.

But can I bottle.........
Joking again.

God help me, I am seriously ****ed off with the trolls and just
plain idiots who keep ignoring the simple fact that the vegetables
you want to bottle are non-acid :-(

I don't know exactly what the chances are of a non-gassy,
non-tainting botulinus infection are, but the consequences of one
are likely to be death for anyone eating the result. If I were
bottling vegetables, I would do as we did in the UK in the 1950s
and use pressure. Fruit isn't a problem, and you don't need
pressure.

There were good reasons that most people in the UK up to the
1950s used bottling only for fruit, and preserved vegetables by
salting, drying etc. Pressure bottling is a pain to do, and
constrains the amounts you do and size of bottles.

But it's your life ....


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Nick, I think that we all respect your scientific knowledge, but many of
us can't understand it!
I think that you expect too much understanding from us of your obvious
knowledge. It is simple to you, but not for us.
I could describe to you how to make a mortice and tenon joint, or how to
replace a crankshaft in any petrol driven engine.
I doubt that you would understsnd any of it without a basic knowledge,
and the skills involved.

We are not trolls and idiots.

Baz

In article , Baz wrote:

Capitals are regarded as shouting.
Perhaps you can set your keyboard to whispering.
Only joking.

But can I bottle.........
Joking again.

God help me, I am seriously ****ed off with the trolls and just
plain idiots who keep ignoring the simple fact that the vegetables
you want to bottle are non-acid :-(

I don't know exactly what the chances are of a non-gassy,
non-tainting botulinus infection are, but the consequences of one
are likely to be death for anyone eating the result. If I were
bottling vegetables, I would do as we did in the UK in the 1950s
and use pressure. Fruit isn't a problem, and you don't need
pressure.

There were good reasons that most people in the UK up to the
1950s used bottling only for fruit, and preserved vegetables by
salting, drying etc. Pressure bottling is a pain to do, and
constrains the amounts you do and size of bottles.

But it's your life ....

Nick, I think that we all respect your scientific knowledge, but many of
us can't understand it!
I think that you expect too much understanding from us of your obvious
knowledge. It is simple to you, but not for us.
I could describe to you how to make a mortice and tenon joint, or how to
replace a crankshaft in any petrol driven engine.
I doubt that you would understsnd any of it without a basic knowledge,
and the skills involved.

You have not made any posting that either deliberately misrepresented
what I said, or ignored the clear, explicit wording in favour of
something that I had obviously not said. So I am not counting you
among the trolls and idiots.

The distinction is NOT between fruit+vegetables and meat+fish, but
between fruit+pickles and all-other-foods. My memory was that the
main danger is from meat+fish, but one of the references posted
informed me that is NOT true and the main danger is from vegetables.
Seriously.

Somewhere in this house, I have a Ministry of Food booklet from the
1940s which describes the preservation of garden produce ("Dig For
Victory" and all that). It describes the bottling of fruit, and
says that bottling vegetables at home should not be attempted, as
it needs to be done under pressure.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On Sun, 8 Sep 2013 11:14:47 +0100, Janet wrote:

I have a jug of hard paraffin wax which I use and reuse on the odd

What a faff!

Quite. And withouta proper lid how do you keep the jam once opened?

I use a waxed paper disc ...

What a faff!

... old lids can be cleaned boiled and re-used,

That's what we do saves having to fish the bit of paper out that
serves no useful purpose IMHO. Check the old lids for damage (dents
or distorted seal) then still boiling jam into hot jars and lid on
straight away. Oven mits essential and there may still be a bit ouch
ouch ouch once you've done a few and the heat is starting to
penetrate the mits...

Note this is jam, high sugar. For low sugar or low acidity stuff you
need do need to take more care, ie above boiling point for "a while"
where "a while" is 10 mins.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Sun, 8 Sep 2013 12:50:17 +0100 (BST), Nick Maclaren wrote:

Somewhere in this house, I have a Ministry of Food booklet from the
1940s which describes the preservation of garden produce ("Dig For
Victory" and all that). It describes the bottling of fruit, and
says that bottling vegetables at home should not be attempted, as
it needs to be done under pressure.

Were domestic pressure cookers easily available during the war? I
have a feeling that they may have existed before but like a lot of
things disappeared during and only reappeared in the early 50's.

I agree there has been some mis-information in this thread,
bottling/canning really combines several preservation processes
depending on what is being bottled/canned. Broadly these processes
are heat treatment, hermetic sealing and sugar/acidity level.

The heat treatment and sugar acid levels are interrelated in that if
you have high sugar (jams etc) or high acid level (ph4.6 according
to wikipedia) you don't need to have heat treatment above 100C. If
the sugar content is low / acidity ph4.6 then you ought to have
high temperature treatment and the way to do that is in a pressure
vessel of some sort.

Trying to use the food type to define the bottling process required
can lead to an incorrect process being used.

--
Cheers
Dave.

(Nick Maclaren) wrote in
:

In article , Baz
wrote:

Capitals are regarded as shouting.
Perhaps you can set your keyboard to whispering.
Only joking.

But can I bottle.........
Joking again.

God help me, I am seriously ****ed off with the trolls and just
plain idiots who keep ignoring the simple fact that the vegetables
you want to bottle are non-acid :-(

I don't know exactly what the chances are of a non-gassy,
non-tainting botulinus infection are, but the consequences of one
are likely to be death for anyone eating the result. If I were
bottling vegetables, I would do as we did in the UK in the 1950s
and use pressure. Fruit isn't a problem, and you don't need
pressure.

There were good reasons that most people in the UK up to the
1950s used bottling only for fruit, and preserved vegetables by
salting, drying etc. Pressure bottling is a pain to do, and
constrains the amounts you do and size of bottles.

But it's your life ....

Nick, I think that we all respect your scientific knowledge, but many
of us can't understand it!
I think that you expect too much understanding from us of your obvious
knowledge. It is simple to you, but not for us.
I could describe to you how to make a mortice and tenon joint, or how
to replace a crankshaft in any petrol driven engine.
I doubt that you would understsnd any of it without a basic knowledge,
and the skills involved.

You have not made any posting that either deliberately misrepresented
what I said, or ignored the clear, explicit wording in favour of
something that I had obviously not said. So I am not counting you
among the trolls and idiots.

I am glad to hear that.

The distinction is NOT between fruit+vegetables and meat+fish, but
between fruit+pickles and all-other-foods. My memory was that the
main danger is from meat+fish, but one of the references posted
informed me that is NOT true and the main danger is from vegetables.
Seriously.

I would definatly NOT try with meat+fish.

Somewhere in this house, I have a Ministry of Food booklet from the
1940s which describes the preservation of garden produce ("Dig For
Victory" and all that). It describes the bottling of fruit, and
says that bottling vegetables at home should not be attempted, as
it needs to be done under pressure.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

I can't fill all the Kilners with fruit this year. I have 8X 2pint jars
done with soft fruit and later in the year perhaps pears.
I have a video of Ruth LaMotte bottling tomatoes, re-enacting the dig for
victory campaign. The way the tomatoes are ripening now, I can maybe fill
all the jars by the end of this month.

Thankyou, Nick, for clarification and all.
Baz

Janet wrote in
t:

In article , nospamigg1937
@yahoo.co.uk says...

On Sat, 07 Sep 2013 20:02:37 +0100, David Hill
wrote:

I'm not going to go out to buy a dishwasher just to heat jam jars.

No need; you have an oven.

One thing I want to try is instead of lids or papers and covers for
the
jars (I've actually been using cling film for the last few years) is
to try candle wag poured on when the jam is still warm/hot it will
cap off the contents.,

Could be hard (or expensive) to find modern candles which are food
safe.

I have a jug of hard paraffin wax which I use and reuse on the odd

What a faff! I use a waxed paper disc (buy the right size for your
jars) laid wax side down on top of the marmalade while piping hot.
Followed by a screw top lid.

Discs are available from Lakeland; old lids can be cleaned boiled
and
re-used, or you can buy new ones online.

Janet




We buy from a charity(Womens Institute) for our jam and marmalade most
times, when my great aunt forgets how to do it, she is getting older now.
They used to sell it with a bit of greaseproof paper and an elastic band
around it.
They are not allowed to sell it like that anymore. I don't think it hurt
anybody. But the law.....insists....
There is nothing nicer, in the preserve world, than a spoon of home made
jam or marmalade.

Baz

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in
ll.co.uk:


Trying to use the food type to define the bottling process required
can lead to an incorrect process being used.


Yes Yes.
I have tried to get to the bottom of this.

Baz

In article ,
lid says...

I'd just like to add that German and Dutch stores sell bottled
vegetables.

I'd just like to add, so do UK supermarkets.

Janet.

On 08/09/13 12:50, Nick Maclaren wrote:

Somewhere in this house, I have a Ministry of Food booklet from the
1940s which describes the preservation of garden produce ("Dig For
Victory" and all that). It describes the bottling of fruit, and
says that bottling vegetables at home should not be attempted, as
it needs to be done under pressure.

As supporting evidence for that...

"Home Preservation of Fruit and Vegetables" by Fish.& Food,Min.of
Agriculture (Jul 1989) isbn 0112428649, first published in 1929

That's an intensely practical book, also giving enough
theory to enable the reader to understand why the practice
has evolved.

It has chapters on jams, jellies, marmalade, fruit cheeses &
butters, mincemeat & other fruit preserves, bottled fruit,
fruit syrups and squashes, vinegars, pickles, chutneys,
ketchup, drying & salting, freezing, storing fruit & vegetables.

(1) botulism is mentioned prominently, with appropriate warnings
(2) some jams, e.g. cherry have added citric/tartaric acid
(3) all the methods for vegetables are freezing or drying or
adding to chutney and marrow jam requires extra acid
(4) THERE ARE NO RECIPES FOR CANNING/BOTTLING VEGETABLES unless
acid or salt are present
(5) pressure cooking: 5lb for bottled fruit, 10lb for jam,
15lb for nothing
(6) despite the book's title, there is relatively little
vegetables - just freeze them or dry them

On 9/8/2013 9:23 AM, Janet wrote:
In article ,
lid says...

I'd just like to add that German and Dutch stores sell bottled
vegetables.

I'd just like to add, so do UK supermarkets.

As do US ones.

In article ,
Tom Gardner wrote:

Somewhere in this house, I have a Ministry of Food booklet from the
1940s which describes the preservation of garden produce ("Dig For
Victory" and all that). It describes the bottling of fruit, and
says that bottling vegetables at home should not be attempted, as
it needs to be done under pressure.

As supporting evidence for that...

"Home Preservation of Fruit and Vegetables" by Fish.& Food,Min.of
Agriculture (Jul 1989) isbn 0112428649, first published in 1929

That's almost certainly an updated version of the same booklet.
Perhaps not even updated very much :-)


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.