"Peter Duncanson [BrE]" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 20 Oct 2012 17:12:52 +0100, "GordonD"
wrote:

"Ophelia" wrote in message
...


"GordonD" wrote in message
...

Hi, O! Didn't know you hung out here (or are you in gardening?)

You might be surprised where I hang out ... *mysterious wink*


makes mental note to keep the curtains drawn at all times

ObAUE: Is that drawn meaning open or drawn meaning closed?


Good question Does this mean I can spy on him, or not?

--
--

http://www.shop.helpforheroes.org.uk/

Robert Bannister wrote:

On 21/10/12 1:36 AM, Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:

ObAUE: Is that drawn meaning open or drawn meaning closed?


Serious question: can "drawn" ever mean the curtains are open? I would
have thought that it had to be "drawn back" or "open" and that "drawn"
always meant they were closed.

This is different from the action of drawing and the verb to draw the
curtains, on the other hand, which are always ambiguous.

I looked through Google Books instances of "curtains were drawn" plus
the word "light," and I think you're usually right. If "drawn" is not
modified then it usually appears to mean closed, as in:

1820 -
being moved on the pillow by the nurse; she experienced great throbbing,
and intolerance of light and noise, -- the curtains were drawn, and the
bells in the house were ordered not to be rung.

1825 -
.... Every eatable that the season afforded, supplied the table -- the
curtains were drawn, and the chandeliers were illuminated with wax. The
transition from day- light, to this artificial splendor, exhilirated the
spirits of the guests, who

However, this one seems to go the other way:

Lady Chatterley's Lover by D.H. Lawrence
Page 246
Then he woke up and looked at the light. The curtains were drawn. He
listened to the loud wild calling of blackbirds and thrushes in the
wood. It would be a brilliant morning, about half past five, his hour
for rising.

I'm not sure what this means. He might have seen the light in the gaps
(chinks). It doesn't say he got out of bed to peer around the curtains.
If they were open because a maid had been there, she was darned early.
Maybe they had never been closed. Maybe they were even permanently tied
back.

--
Best -- Donna Richoux

On 21/10/2012 13:06, Donna Richoux wrote:
Robert Bannister wrote:

On 21/10/12 1:36 AM, Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:

ObAUE: Is that drawn meaning open or drawn meaning closed?


Serious question: can "drawn" ever mean the curtains are open? I would
have thought that it had to be "drawn back" or "open" and that "drawn"
always meant they were closed.

However, this one seems to go the other way:

Lady Chatterley's Lover by D.H. Lawrence
Page 246
Then he woke up and looked at the light. The curtains were drawn. He
listened to the loud wild calling of blackbirds and thrushes in the
wood. It would be a brilliant morning, about half past five, his hour
for rising.

I'm not sure what this means. He might have seen the light in the gaps
(chinks). It doesn't say he got out of bed to peer around the curtains.
If they were open because a maid had been there, she was darned early.
Maybe they had never been closed. Maybe they were even permanently tied
back.

Which light is he looking at? The light of the dawn outside or the one
inside?

We need some more context to decide what state the curtains were in.

It seems they were closed...

Then he woke up and looked at the light. The curtains were drawn. He
listened to the loud wild calling of blackbirds and thrushes in the
wood. It would be a brilliant morning, about half past five, his hour
for rising. He had slept so fast! It was such a new day! The woman was
still curled asleep and tender. His hand moved on her, and she opened
her blue wondering eyes, smiling unconsciously into his face.

"Are you awake?" she said to him.

He was looking into her eyes. He smiled, and kissed her. And suddenly
she roused and sat up.

"Fancy that I am here!" she said.

She looked round the whitewashed little bedroom with its sloping ceiling
and gable window where the white curtains were closed. The room was bare
save for a little yellow-painted chest of drawers, and a chair: and the
smallish white bed in which she lay with him.
--
Phil Cook

On 21/10/12 8:06 PM, Donna Richoux wrote:

Lady Chatterley's Lover by D.H. Lawrence
Page 246
Then he woke up and looked at the light. The curtains were drawn. He
listened to the loud wild calling of blackbirds and thrushes in the
wood. It would be a brilliant morning, about half past five, his hour
for rising.

I'm not sure what this means. He might have seen the light in the gaps
(chinks). It doesn't say he got out of bed to peer around the curtains.
If they were open because a maid had been there, she was darned early.
Maybe they had never been closed. Maybe they were even permanently tied
back.


That is certainly confusing. At the age when I read that book, I doubt I
would have noticed passages like that.
--
Robert Bannister

Lewis wrote:

In message
Robert Bannister wrote:
On 21/10/12 1:36 AM, Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:

ObAUE: Is that drawn meaning open or drawn meaning closed?


Serious question: can "drawn" ever mean the curtains are open? I would
have thought that it had to be "drawn back" or "open" and that "drawn"
always meant they were closed.

This is different from the action of drawing and the verb to draw the
curtains, on the other hand, which are always ambiguous.

I thought 'draw the curtains' meant "open them", but drawn curtains were
closed.

More like "pull". Pull them closed if they are open, pull them open if
they are closed.

Neither phrase (nor curtains, for that matter) is common in my life.

--
Best -- Donna Richoux

"Donna Richoux" wrote in message
...
Lewis wrote:

In message
Robert Bannister wrote:
On 21/10/12 1:36 AM, Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:

ObAUE: Is that drawn meaning open or drawn meaning closed?


Serious question: can "drawn" ever mean the curtains are open? I would
have thought that it had to be "drawn back" or "open" and that "drawn"
always meant they were closed.

This is different from the action of drawing and the verb to draw the
curtains, on the other hand, which are always ambiguous.

I thought 'draw the curtains' meant "open them", but drawn curtains were
closed.

More like "pull". Pull them closed if they are open, pull them open if
they are closed.

Neither phrase (nor curtains, for that matter) is common in my life.


I really, *really* wish I'd said "make sure the blinds are closed"...
--
Gordon Davie
Edinburgh, Scotland

"Slipped the surly bonds of Earth...to touch the face of God."

On 21/10/2012 13:36, Phil Cook wrote:
On 21/10/2012 13:06, Donna Richoux wrote:
Robert Bannister wrote:

On 21/10/12 1:36 AM, Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:

ObAUE: Is that drawn meaning open or drawn meaning closed?


Serious question: can "drawn" ever mean the curtains are open? I would
have thought that it had to be "drawn back" or "open" and that "drawn"
always meant they were closed.

However, this one seems to go the other way:

Lady Chatterley's Lover by D.H. Lawrence
Page 246

It seems they were closed...

Then he woke up and looked at the light. The curtains were drawn. He
listened to the loud wild calling of blackbirds and thrushes in the
wood. It would be a brilliant morning, about half past five, his hour
for rising...

She looked round the whitewashed little bedroom with its sloping ceiling
and gable window where the white curtains were closed. The room was bare
save for a little yellow-painted chest of drawers, and a chair: and the
smallish white bed in which she lay with him.

Bad form replying to myself, but if I had included a little more we
would have seen that She would have suggested they draw the curtains to
open them. So the act of opening or closing the curtains is drawing them
but if they are described as drawn I would say they have been closed.
--
Phil Cook

In article , Lewis
writes
I thought 'draw the curtains' meant "open them", but drawn curtains were
closed.


Oh now i would think "draw the curtains" meant close them.
--
Janet Tweedy

On Mon, 22 Oct 2012 15:07:49 +0100, Janet Tweedy wrote:

In article , Lewis
writes
I thought 'draw the curtains' meant "open them", but drawn curtains were
closed.


Oh now i would think "draw the curtains" meant close them.

FWIIW

In my family it can mean either - you workout which, based on the current
state.

Avpx



--
One day I'll be dead and THEN you'll all be
sorry.
(alt.fan.pratchett)
15:30:01 up 1 day, 21:52, 7 users, load average: 0.43, 0.61, 0.66

On 10/22/2012 10:34 AM, The Nomad wrote:
On Mon, 22 Oct 2012 15:07:49 +0100, Janet Tweedy wrote:

In article , Lewis
writes
I thought 'draw the curtains' meant "open them", but drawn curtains were
closed.


Oh now i would think "draw the curtains" meant close them.

FWIIW

In my family it can mean either - you workout which, based on the current
state.


It's a toggle then.


--
Jim Silverton (Potomac, MD)

Extraneous "not" in Reply To.

"'Mike'" writes:

"Peter James" wrote in message
...
Don Phillipson wrote:

"David Hill" wrote in message
...

A cousin of mine lost her daughter to cancer a short while ago.
She raised the following question. A man who loses his wife is a
widower, a woman who loses her husband is a widow, a child who
loses a parent is an orphan. Why is there no word in the
English language for a parent who loses a child?
Perhaps because before 1900 this was so common: most parents lost
at least one child to illness, i.e. bereavement was normal and
required no special word.
Back in the days of my youth, I took part in a Historical Survey of
a mining area in Cornwall, and one of the things we did was to
survey the local graveyards for the years 1720 -1890.. We were all
struck by the number of gravestones listing the names of children
who had died in infancy and we buried in the family plot. In one
case, 13 children 11 of whom died in infancy. One grave, which I
shall never forget in St Cleer graveyar near to Liskeard, was
dedicated to the memory of a girl who died aged 16 years of age. It
bore the following epitaph.
"Pray spare a thought as you pass by, As you are now so once was I.
As I am now, so will you be, So be prepared to follow me"
All food for thought. It was a very harrowing experience.
Peter


Part of the Masonic ritual states 'and death, the grand leveller of
all human greatness, reduces us to the same state'

"O dark dark dark. They all go into the dark,
The vacant interstellar spaces, the vacant into the vacant,
The captains, merchant bankers, eminent men of letters,
The generous patrons of art, the statesmen and the rulers,
Distinguished civil servants, chairmen of many committees,
Industrial lords and petty contractors, all go into the dark,"

Arcadian Rises writes:

On Oct 19, 8:20Â*am, "Don Phillipson" wrote:
wrote in message
...

In uk.rec.gardening R H Draney wrote:
I've come across that several times in my family tree. I think
one poor
family had three attempts to get a child called John, before
succeeding. Â*It seems - in these cases - either an attempt to
carry on
a family name, or perhaps a tribute to the child that had
died. . . .

I can imagine it being rather confusing for /everyone/, unless they
dismissed any reference to the first child from any future
conversation!
We can however approach this empirically. Â* When family histories
offer no evidence anyone found this confusing 150 years ago, it is
fair to say there was probably no such confusion.

True. They could refer to "the late John" and "the living John" Also,
"Jessica the old maid" or "The stuttering Jim", "the limping Howard",
"the dimwitted Eddie" to distinguish them from their namesakes in
those pre-PC ages.

All all the Welsh Jones-the-somethings.

I know someone who gave up investigating their family history when they
got to a wedding where both participants, all the witnesses, and the
presiding clergy were called Jones.

On 10/28/2012 11:10 AM, Dr Nick wrote:

I know someone who gave up investigating their family history when they
got to a wedding where both participants, all the witnesses, and the
presiding clergy were called Jones.

In my mother's family that would be Mackay and Gordon. And they tended
to use the same limited set of forenames.

On Sun, 28 Oct 2012 15:10:53 +0000, Dr Nick
wrote:

Arcadian Rises writes:

On Oct 19, 8:20*am, "Don Phillipson" wrote:
wrote in message
...

In uk.rec.gardening R H Draney wrote:
I've come across that several times in my family tree. I think
one poor
family had three attempts to get a child called John, before
succeeding. *It seems - in these cases - either an attempt to
carry on
a family name, or perhaps a tribute to the child that had
died. . . .

I can imagine it being rather confusing for /everyone/, unless they
dismissed any reference to the first child from any future
conversation!
We can however approach this empirically. * When family histories
offer no evidence anyone found this confusing 150 years ago, it is
fair to say there was probably no such confusion.

True. They could refer to "the late John" and "the living John" Also,
"Jessica the old maid" or "The stuttering Jim", "the limping Howard",
"the dimwitted Eddie" to distinguish them from their namesakes in
those pre-PC ages.

All all the Welsh Jones-the-somethings.

I know someone who gave up investigating their family history when they
got to a wedding where both participants, all the witnesses, and the
presiding clergy were called Jones.

In Malta, some official forms used to, and perhaps still, provide
spaces for Surname, Forenames, and Nickname.

--
Mike.

The Nomad wrote on Mon, 22 Oct 2012
On Mon, 22 Oct 2012 15:07:49 +0100, Janet Tweedy wrote:

In article , Lewis
writes
I thought 'draw the curtains' meant "open them", but drawn curtains were
closed.


Oh now i would think "draw the curtains" meant close them.

FWIIW

In my family it can mean either - you workout which, based on the current
state.

This is one of those words that I feel I never certainly remember the
meaning of, probably because I've included in my mental encoding, "It's
the opposite of what you think", and then can not remember what it was I
originally thought.

On looking through Google I can see I'm right to be confused. It's
clearly been used in both senses. Even Johnson, in his 1827 dictionary,
records the two opposing meanings:

"15. To unclose or slide back curtains

Go draw aside the curtains, and discover
The sev'ral caskets to the noble prince.
-- Shakespeare

Alarm'd, and with presaging heart he came,
And drew the curtain, and expos'd the dame.
-- Dryden

16. To close or spread curtains
Philoclea intreated Pamella to open her grief, who, drawing the curtain,
that the light might not complain of her blushing, was ready to speak.
-- Sidney"

Generally, it looks as if the 'closing' sense predominates.
--
Iain Archer