I have posted before about my wish to graft this year alder seedling
scion onto "adult" tree branches. I am still having problems and I
have tried again this year.

When you cut alder the cut face turns red-brown, presumably the action
is the same as the browning of apples when they are cut; the reagents
are held separately in separate vacuoles, and when they are cut, the
reagents mix and produce the colour. This looks to me like damage,
harm is being done. So this year I have squirted the scion and stock,
with ordinary tap water then, just before they are put together.
*Some* of those treated this way have survived, but I'm not sure how
long that will go on.

The scion and stock are 2 -3 mm in diameter, somebody on this group
advised me to use Hellermann sleeves (thank you for that!) to hold the
scion and stock together, it took some trail and error develop a
technique, but I can now produce a workmanlike-looking graft. I cover
the scion with lay-flat tubing and droplets of water, appear on the
inside of the tubing, obviously evaporation from the scion's bud and
leaves. So obviously water is being transferred, but the graft dies
after a few weeks. Why?

In the 4-6 weeks it should take for a graft to bind there will
normally be at least one strong wind. So is the problem purely
mechanical, that the growing cells are torn by movement of of the
scion against the graft? What might I do about it? Use a cocktail
stick held on with tape as a splint?

These are all grafts of this year's scion onto this year's growth of
stock. Would it be more successful to graft ("bud") this year's
axillary bud onto last year's hard growth? It might have the effect
that the bud won't grow (and therefore not be levered by the wind)
until some cellular connection has been made. I hope!

Another other good ideas, suggestions of things I could try?


Michael Bell

--

On Jun 24, 3:51*pm, Michael Bell wrote:
I have posted before about my wish to graft this year alder seedling
scion onto "adult" tree branches. I am still having problems and I
have tried again this year.

When you cut alder the cut face turns red-brown, presumably the action
is the same as the browning of apples when they are cut; the reagents
are held separately in separate vacuoles, and when they are cut, the
reagents mix and produce the colour. This looks to me like damage,
harm is being done. So this year I have squirted the scion and stock,
with ordinary tap water then, just before they are put together.
*Some* of those treated this way have survived, but I'm not sure how
long that will go on.

The scion and stock are 2 -3 mm in diameter, somebody on this group
advised me to use Hellermann sleeves (thank you for that!) to hold the
scion and stock together, it took some trail and error develop a
technique, but I can now produce a workmanlike-looking graft. I cover
the scion with lay-flat tubing and *droplets of water, appear on the
inside of the tubing, obviously evaporation from the scion's bud and
leaves. So obviously water is being transferred, but the graft dies
after a few weeks. Why?

In the 4-6 weeks it should take for a graft to bind there will
normally be at least one strong wind. So is the problem purely
mechanical, that the growing cells are torn by movement of of the
scion against the graft? What might I do about it? Use a cocktail
stick held on with tape as a splint?

These are all grafts of this year's scion onto this year's growth of
stock. Would it be more successful to graft ("bud") this year's
axillary bud onto last year's hard growth? It might have the effect
that the bud won't grow (and therefore not be levered by the wind)
until some cellular connection has been made. I hope!

Another other good ideas, suggestions of things I could try?

Michael Bell

--

You might look at this technique (Bud grafting)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruit_t...n#Bud_grafting

In message
ups.com
harry wrote:

On Jun 24, 3:51*pm, Michael Bell wrote:
I have posted before about my wish to graft this year alder seedling
scion onto "adult" tree branches. I am still having problems and I
have tried again this year.

When you cut alder the cut face turns red-brown, presumably the action
is the same as the browning of apples when they are cut; the reagents
are held separately in separate vacuoles, and when they are cut, the
reagents mix and produce the colour. This looks to me like damage,
harm is being done. So this year I have squirted the scion and stock,
with ordinary tap water then, just before they are put together.
*Some* of those treated this way have survived, but I'm not sure how
long that will go on.

The scion and stock are 2 -3 mm in diameter, somebody on this group
advised me to use Hellermann sleeves (thank you for that!) to hold the
scion and stock together, it took some trail and error develop a
technique, but I can now produce a workmanlike-looking graft. I cover
the scion with lay-flat tubing and *droplets of water, appear on the
inside of the tubing, obviously evaporation from the scion's bud and
leaves. So obviously water is being transferred, but the graft dies
after a few weeks. Why?

In the 4-6 weeks it should take for a graft to bind there will
normally be at least one strong wind. So is the problem purely
mechanical, that the growing cells are torn by movement of of the
scion against the graft? What might I do about it? Use a cocktail
stick held on with tape as a splint?

These are all grafts of this year's scion onto this year's growth of
stock. Would it be more successful to graft ("bud") this year's
axillary bud onto last year's hard growth? It might have the effect
that the bud won't grow (and therefore not be levered by the wind)
until some cellular connection has been made. I hope!

Another other good ideas, suggestions of things I could try?

Michael Bell

--

You might look at this technique (Bud grafting)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruit_t...n#Bud_grafting

Thank you. I did know of this, but thank you just the same. I want to
graft *small* pieces, this year's growth to this year's growth or to
last year's growth. I think my woodwork is OK and the scions don't die
straight away, they grow for a while, I am puzzled why they don't keep
on growing.

Michael Bell

--

"Michael Bell" wrote in message
. uk...
snip
The scion and stock are 2 -3 mm in diameter, somebody on this group
advised me to use Hellermann sleeves (thank you for that!) to hold the
scion and stock together, it took some trail and error develop a
technique, but I can now produce a workmanlike-looking graft. I cover
the scion with lay-flat tubing and droplets of water, appear on the
inside of the tubing, obviously evaporation from the scion's bud and
leaves. So obviously water is being transferred, but the graft dies
after a few weeks. Why?
snip

Just wondering how long grafts stored under the same circumstances (i.e. in
the tubing) last before they die.
Cut pieces of branches continue to grow and transpire.
If their cut bases are put into water they can last a good few weeks before
they die.
So possibly all that is happening is that the grafts are behaving much as a
pruning in a low water loss environment would.
Which would mean that they are not starting to take then failing, but not
taking at all.
However, not sure how this helps you in your task.

--
No plan survives contact with the enemy.
[Not even bunny]

Helmuth von Moltke the Elder

(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

In message
"David WE Roberts" wrote:


"Michael Bell" wrote in message
. uk...
snip
The scion and stock are 2 -3 mm in diameter, somebody on this group
advised me to use Hellermann sleeves (thank you for that!) to hold the
scion and stock together, it took some trail and error develop a
technique, but I can now produce a workmanlike-looking graft. I cover
the scion with lay-flat tubing and droplets of water, appear on the
inside of the tubing, obviously evaporation from the scion's bud and
leaves. So obviously water is being transferred, but the graft dies
after a few weeks. Why?
snip

Just wondering how long grafts stored under the same circumstances (i.e. in
the tubing) last before they die.
Cut pieces of branches continue to grow and transpire.
If their cut bases are put into water they can last a good few weeks before
they die.
So possibly all that is happening is that the grafts are behaving much as a
pruning in a low water loss environment would.
Which would mean that they are not starting to take then failing, but not
taking at all.
However, not sure how this helps you in your task.

I don't believe it, but it's possible. I can check it. I will put cut
scions in lay-flat tubing *not* grafted to the stock and see what
happens.

Who can I turn to for help? Some school of grafting? Do such exist?

Michael Bell



--

"Michael Bell" wrote in message
. uk...
In message
"David WE Roberts" wrote:


"Michael Bell" wrote in message
. uk...
snip
The scion and stock are 2 -3 mm in diameter, somebody on this group
advised me to use Hellermann sleeves (thank you for that!) to hold the
scion and stock together, it took some trail and error develop a
technique, but I can now produce a workmanlike-looking graft. I cover
the scion with lay-flat tubing and droplets of water, appear on the
inside of the tubing, obviously evaporation from the scion's bud and
leaves. So obviously water is being transferred, but the graft dies
after a few weeks. Why?
snip

Just wondering how long grafts stored under the same circumstances (i.e.
in
the tubing) last before they die.
Cut pieces of branches continue to grow and transpire.
If their cut bases are put into water they can last a good few weeks
before
they die.
So possibly all that is happening is that the grafts are behaving much as
a
pruning in a low water loss environment would.
Which would mean that they are not starting to take then failing, but not
taking at all.
However, not sure how this helps you in your task.

I don't believe it, but it's possible. I can check it. I will put cut
scions in lay-flat tubing *not* grafted to the stock and see what
happens.

Who can I turn to for help? Some school of grafting? Do such exist?


My brief Googling yields "some can be grafted" which implies not all can.
Are you sure others have succeeded in grafting your particular variant of
Alder?
First stop would be nurseries who sell them - they should know who (if
anyone) can supply grafted Alders.
They might in turn be willing to explain how to go about it.

--
No plan survives contact with the enemy.
[Not even bunny]

Helmuth von Moltke the Elder

(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

In message
"David WE Roberts" wrote:


"Michael Bell" wrote in message
. uk...
In message
"David WE Roberts" wrote:


"Michael Bell" wrote in message
. uk...
snip
The scion and stock are 2 -3 mm in diameter, somebody on this group
advised me to use Hellermann sleeves (thank you for that!) to hold the
scion and stock together, it took some trail and error develop a
technique, but I can now produce a workmanlike-looking graft. I cover
the scion with lay-flat tubing and droplets of water, appear on the
inside of the tubing, obviously evaporation from the scion's bud and
leaves. So obviously water is being transferred, but the graft dies
after a few weeks. Why?
snip

Just wondering how long grafts stored under the same circumstances (i.e.
in
the tubing) last before they die.
Cut pieces of branches continue to grow and transpire.
If their cut bases are put into water they can last a good few weeks
before
they die.
So possibly all that is happening is that the grafts are behaving much as
a
pruning in a low water loss environment would.
Which would mean that they are not starting to take then failing, but not
taking at all.
However, not sure how this helps you in your task.

I don't believe it, but it's possible. I can check it. I will put cut
scions in lay-flat tubing *not* grafted to the stock and see what
happens.

Who can I turn to for help? Some school of grafting? Do such exist?


My brief Googling yields "some can be grafted" which implies not all can.
Are you sure others have succeeded in grafting your particular variant of
Alder?
First stop would be nurseries who sell them - they should know who (if
anyone) can supply grafted Alders.
They might in turn be willing to explain how to go about it.

I'll try nurseries, but I don't think any do it, there is no reason
for them to, they certainly don't have my reasons. I am trying to
graft A. glutinosa with big seeds (as part of my project to develop
alder as a grain crop) onto very similar A. glutinosas which do not
have this trait. In desperation, for these experiments, I am grafting
scions back onto *the same trees* so there should be problem of
compatibility. Alder seems to me a very ordinary hardwood. Why am I
having these problems?

Michael Bell

--

On 06/25/2012 01:44 PM, Michael Bell wrote:
In message
"David WE Roberts" wrote:


"Michael Bell" wrote in message
. uk...
In message
"David WE Roberts" wrote:


"Michael Bell" wrote in message
. uk...
snip
The scion and stock are 2 -3 mm in diameter, somebody on this group
advised me to use Hellermann sleeves (thank you for that!) to hold the
scion and stock together, it took some trail and error develop a
technique, but I can now produce a workmanlike-looking graft. I cover
the scion with lay-flat tubing and droplets of water, appear on the
inside of the tubing, obviously evaporation from the scion's bud and
leaves. So obviously water is being transferred, but the graft dies
after a few weeks. Why?
snip

Just wondering how long grafts stored under the same circumstances (i.e.
in
the tubing) last before they die.
Cut pieces of branches continue to grow and transpire.
If their cut bases are put into water they can last a good few weeks
before
they die.
So possibly all that is happening is that the grafts are behaving much as
a
pruning in a low water loss environment would.
Which would mean that they are not starting to take then failing, but not
taking at all.
However, not sure how this helps you in your task.

I don't believe it, but it's possible. I can check it. I will put cut
scions in lay-flat tubing *not* grafted to the stock and see what
happens.

Who can I turn to for help? Some school of grafting? Do such exist?


My brief Googling yields "some can be grafted" which implies not all can.
Are you sure others have succeeded in grafting your particular variant of
Alder?
First stop would be nurseries who sell them - they should know who (if
anyone) can supply grafted Alders.
They might in turn be willing to explain how to go about it.

I'll try nurseries, but I don't think any do it, there is no reason
for them to, they certainly don't have my reasons.

Some Alder cultivars certainly need to be grafted IMHO, e.g. the
beautiful Alnus glutinosa 'Aurea', or 'Imperialis.'

Many nurseries outsource grafting of some difficult species. Perhaps
Alder is one of these, but either they'll do it themselves or e able to
tell you who can.

Look for nurseries selling unusual Alder cultivars.

In message
Emery Davis wrote:

On 06/25/2012 01:44 PM, Michael Bell wrote:
In message
"David WE Roberts" wrote:


"Michael Bell" wrote in message
. uk...
In message
"David WE Roberts" wrote:


"Michael Bell" wrote in message
. uk...
snip
The scion and stock are 2 -3 mm in diameter, somebody on this group
advised me to use Hellermann sleeves (thank you for that!) to hold the
scion and stock together, it took some trail and error develop a
technique, but I can now produce a workmanlike-looking graft. I cover
the scion with lay-flat tubing and droplets of water, appear on the
inside of the tubing, obviously evaporation from the scion's bud and
leaves. So obviously water is being transferred, but the graft dies
after a few weeks. Why?
snip

Just wondering how long grafts stored under the same circumstances (i.e.
in
the tubing) last before they die.
Cut pieces of branches continue to grow and transpire.
If their cut bases are put into water they can last a good few weeks
before
they die.
So possibly all that is happening is that the grafts are behaving much as
a
pruning in a low water loss environment would.
Which would mean that they are not starting to take then failing, but not
taking at all.
However, not sure how this helps you in your task.

I don't believe it, but it's possible. I can check it. I will put cut
scions in lay-flat tubing *not* grafted to the stock and see what
happens.

Who can I turn to for help? Some school of grafting? Do such exist?


My brief Googling yields "some can be grafted" which implies not all can.
Are you sure others have succeeded in grafting your particular variant of
Alder?
First stop would be nurseries who sell them - they should know who (if
anyone) can supply grafted Alders.
They might in turn be willing to explain how to go about it.

I'll try nurseries, but I don't think any do it, there is no reason
for them to, they certainly don't have my reasons.

Some Alder cultivars certainly need to be grafted IMHO, e.g. the
beautiful Alnus glutinosa 'Aurea', or 'Imperialis.'

Many nurseries outsource grafting of some difficult species. Perhaps
Alder is one of these, but either they'll do it themselves or e able to
tell you who can.

Look for nurseries selling unusual Alder cultivars.

Thank you. I'll do that.

Michael Bell




--

In message
Michael Bell wrote:

In message
"David WE Roberts" wrote:


"Michael Bell" wrote in message
. uk...
snip
The scion and stock are 2 -3 mm in diameter, somebody on this group
advised me to use Hellermann sleeves (thank you for that!) to hold the
scion and stock together, it took some trail and error develop a
technique, but I can now produce a workmanlike-looking graft. I cover
the scion with lay-flat tubing and droplets of water, appear on the
inside of the tubing, obviously evaporation from the scion's bud and
leaves. So obviously water is being transferred, but the graft dies
after a few weeks. Why?
snip

Just wondering how long grafts stored under the same circumstances (i.e. in
the tubing) last before they die.
Cut pieces of branches continue to grow and transpire.
If their cut bases are put into water they can last a good few weeks before
they die.
So possibly all that is happening is that the grafts are behaving much as a
pruning in a low water loss environment would.
Which would mean that they are not starting to take then failing, but not
taking at all.
However, not sure how this helps you in your task.

I don't believe it, but it's possible. I can check it. I will put cut
scions in lay-flat tubing *not* grafted to the stock and see what
happens.

Michael Bell

Yes, you are right. "Scions" in lay-flat tubing with their cut ends
taped to stop evaporation do produce droplets of water on the inside
of the tubing in exactly the same way as the "grafted" ones. So, that
water is simply them evaporating the water that was in them. It
deceived more experienced men than me!

What follows on from this? What is the right degree of protection from
evaporation? Might it be that some water loss from the scion is
necessary to make the cells grow to join up the stock and scion?

Michael Bell



--

"Michael Bell" wrote in message
. uk...
In message
Michael Bell wrote:

In message
"David WE Roberts" wrote:


"Michael Bell" wrote in message
. uk...
snip
The scion and stock are 2 -3 mm in diameter, somebody on this group
advised me to use Hellermann sleeves (thank you for that!) to hold the
scion and stock together, it took some trail and error develop a
technique, but I can now produce a workmanlike-looking graft. I cover
the scion with lay-flat tubing and droplets of water, appear on the
inside of the tubing, obviously evaporation from the scion's bud and
leaves. So obviously water is being transferred, but the graft dies
after a few weeks. Why?
snip

Just wondering how long grafts stored under the same circumstances (i.e.
in
the tubing) last before they die.
Cut pieces of branches continue to grow and transpire.
If their cut bases are put into water they can last a good few weeks
before
they die.
So possibly all that is happening is that the grafts are behaving much
as a
pruning in a low water loss environment would.
Which would mean that they are not starting to take then failing, but
not
taking at all.
However, not sure how this helps you in your task.

I don't believe it, but it's possible. I can check it. I will put cut
scions in lay-flat tubing *not* grafted to the stock and see what
happens.

Michael Bell

Yes, you are right. "Scions" in lay-flat tubing with their cut ends
taped to stop evaporation do produce droplets of water on the inside
of the tubing in exactly the same way as the "grafted" ones. So, that
water is simply them evaporating the water that was in them. It
deceived more experienced men than me!

What follows on from this? What is the right degree of protection from
evaporation? Might it be that some water loss from the scion is
necessary to make the cells grow to join up the stock and scion?

Michael Bell

I have never done a lot of grafting of trees but I thought mostly it was
done while plants were dormant, however I notice that with some trees late
summer is also a possibility, but in all cases its in a closed case with
high humidity to prevent loss of water from the material


--
Charlie, Gardening in Cornwall
Holders of National Collections of Clematis viticella
and Lapageria rosea cvs
http://www.roselandhouse.co.uk
--

In message
"Charlie Pridham" wrote:


"Michael Bell" wrote in message
. uk...
In message
Michael Bell wrote:

In message
"David WE Roberts" wrote:


"Michael Bell" wrote in message
. uk...
snip
The scion and stock are 2 -3 mm in diameter, somebody on this group
advised me to use Hellermann sleeves (thank you for that!) to hold the
scion and stock together, it took some trail and error develop a
technique, but I can now produce a workmanlike-looking graft. I cover
the scion with lay-flat tubing and droplets of water, appear on the
inside of the tubing, obviously evaporation from the scion's bud and
leaves. So obviously water is being transferred, but the graft dies
after a few weeks. Why?
snip

Just wondering how long grafts stored under the same circumstances (i.e.
in
the tubing) last before they die.
Cut pieces of branches continue to grow and transpire.
If their cut bases are put into water they can last a good few weeks
before
they die.
So possibly all that is happening is that the grafts are behaving much
as a
pruning in a low water loss environment would.
Which would mean that they are not starting to take then failing, but
not
taking at all.
However, not sure how this helps you in your task.

I don't believe it, but it's possible. I can check it. I will put cut
scions in lay-flat tubing *not* grafted to the stock and see what
happens.

Michael Bell

Yes, you are right. "Scions" in lay-flat tubing with their cut ends
taped to stop evaporation do produce droplets of water on the inside
of the tubing in exactly the same way as the "grafted" ones. So, that
water is simply them evaporating the water that was in them. It
deceived more experienced men than me!

What follows on from this? What is the right degree of protection from
evaporation? Might it be that some water loss from the scion is
necessary to make the cells grow to join up the stock and scion?

Michael Bell

I have never done a lot of grafting of trees but I thought mostly it was
done while plants were dormant, however I notice that with some trees late
summer is also a possibility, but in all cases its in a closed case with
high humidity to prevent loss of water from the material


It seem that alders are grafted using "hot pipe" methods. That is to
say, you have potted alder stocks, you graft the scion onto them and
lay them across a heated pipe (such as you often go in old-style
greenhouses) and that provides the heat that allows them to grow.

That's not suitable for me, I want to graft onto rooted-in-the-ground
"adult" trees. I have found that if I bind to the graft with tape a
2.2 kOhm resistor (electronic components come in a logarithmic series
of values, and if you ask for "a 2kOhm resistor", they will give you a
2.2kOhm one) and feed it with 24 volts from a transformer, the heat
output is 0.28 watts and wrapped with 10 cms of bubble wrap (just
under 3 turns) the temperature stablises at 10°C above ambient - that
seems just right! So this morning I did some grafts like that and I
wait to see what happens.

But heat? What does it do? It promotes cell division and growth! Just
what you want for grafting. The notorious weedkiller 2 4 diCholoro
Phenoxy acetic acid does that too. Another possibility! I looked round
my local garden centre but their weedkillers all had glyphosate in
them, not what I want. I should be able to find some 24D somewhere,
but any ideas about whether it's likely to work, concentrations, that
kind of thing?

Michael Bell


--