In article f6794453-face-410b-8f36-347c8d5e5677
@n6g2000vbg.googlegroups.com, says...

The cardboard mulch idea is intereting. However, does it not create an
absolute breeding haven for slugs and snails?

Not in my (long) experience. As the cardboard and mulches break down
worm activity increases; the worms attract birds, the birds spend hours
scratching around for live food.

Janet

On 13 Dec 2011 17:27:45 GMT, "AL_n" wrote:

I have an area of rough grassland (my uncultivated back garden). The soil
isn't bad, although riddled with small flat limestone rocks. I want to turn
the patch into a vegetable patch, with about three 5ft x 30ft beds. Digging
it over would be quite an undertaking; one for which I don't really have
the stamina for. I wondered if planting certain vegetable next Spring,
would make this job easier, by smothering the grass and weeds, and perhaps
improving teh soil.

You could offer to landshare the land and get help sorting it out.
(Landshare is http://www.landshare.net/ )

I've read turnips help kill couch grass. Have not tried it.

Digging stamina increases as you dig over time. Although if it's not
weed killed you end up having to strim first before you dig.




Last Spring, I planted some purple broccili there. They didn;t ptoduce any
flowering tops, but did a great job of smothering all the grass and weeds.
At the end of the season, I found they were easy to pull up and chuck onto
the compost heap, leaving teh ground much easier to work.

I'm not really a broccili fan, so I wonder if anyone suggest other
vegetables which would have a similar useful effect?

Thanks...

Al
--
http://www.voucherfreebies.co.uk

NT wrote in
:


+1. Cardboard is excellent. I'd also plant something light excluding
the first yr, like nettles, pumpkins, courgettes, rhubarb, etc. If
you've got compostable material, that can go down under the cardboard.
Permaculture will wipe out most of the unnecessary physical work that
annual gardens require year on year, but it means getting used to a
whole different set of fruit & veg.


NT

I am very interested in this method of gardening, but why does it mean
getting used to a whole different set of fruit & veg?
Can't we just cut a hole through the cardboard and plant our usual veg.?

Just asking before I lay the cardboard and chuck the muck on top.

It will be the brassica bed and potato bed which gets it(now) for next
years planting.

Of course I can see that sowing root veg. seeds would be a problem, or will
it?

From Thursday I have 3+ weeks off of work for Christmas, and weather
permitting, I will be in the veg. patch doing some remedial work.

Thanks, NT
Baz

On Dec 19, 11:42*pm, Baz wrote:
NT wrote :



+1. Cardboard is excellent. I'd also plant something light excluding
the first yr, like nettles, pumpkins, courgettes, rhubarb, etc. If
you've got compostable material, that can go down under the cardboard.
Permaculture will wipe out most of the unnecessary physical work that
annual gardens require year on year, but it means getting used to a
whole different set of fruit & veg.

NT

I am very interested in this method of gardening, but why does it mean
getting used to a whole different set of fruit & veg?
Can't we just cut a hole through the cardboard and plant our usual veg.?

Just asking before I lay the cardboard and chuck the muck on top.

I trust you mean muck under the cardboard.

It will be the brassica bed and potato bed which gets it(now) for next
years planting.

Of course I can see that sowing root veg. seeds would be a problem, or will
it?

From Thursday I have 3+ weeks off of work for Christmas, and weather
permitting, I will be in the veg. patch doing some remedial work.

Thanks, NT
Baz

The whole point of permaculture is that it mostly uses perennials, so
you dont have to keep replanting, or doing al the other extra work
first year plants require. Popular veg plots use almost exclusively
annuals.


NT

In article 1c190a01-4547-46e7-884a-
, says...

On Dec 19, 11:42*pm, Baz wrote:
NT wrote :



+1. Cardboard is excellent. I'd also plant something light excluding
the first yr, like nettles, pumpkins, courgettes, rhubarb, etc. If
you've got compostable material, that can go down under the cardboard..
Permaculture will wipe out most of the unnecessary physical work that
annual gardens require year on year, but it means getting used to a
whole different set of fruit & veg.

NT

I am very interested in this method of gardening, but why does it mean
getting used to a whole different set of fruit & veg?
Can't we just cut a hole through the cardboard and plant our usual veg.?

Just asking before I lay the cardboard and chuck the muck on top.

I trust you mean muck under the cardboard.

IME better to put the muck on top to help hold down the cardboard and
stop it blowing away.. By the time the much has weathered the carboard
will have disintegrated.

The whole point of permaculture is that it mostly uses perennials, so
you dont have to keep replanting,

Permaculture crop production was developed for (and works in) countries
with much higher, brighter light levels, longer growing seasons etc than
the cloudy cool latitudes of the UK. I have yet to see a permanent, or
even longlived, successful fully perennial Permaculture crop garden in the
UK.

However, UK limitations are no bar to using a Permaculture method of bed
construction in the UK, which you then plant otherwise.

Janet.

On Dec 20, 2:10*pm, Janet wrote:
In article 1c190a01-4547-46e7-884a-
, says...





On Dec 19, 11:42*pm, Baz wrote:
NT wrote :

+1. Cardboard is excellent. I'd also plant something light excluding
the first yr, like nettles, pumpkins, courgettes, rhubarb, etc. If
you've got compostable material, that can go down under the cardboard.
Permaculture will wipe out most of the unnecessary physical work that
annual gardens require year on year, but it means getting used to a
whole different set of fruit & veg.

NT

I am very interested in this method of gardening, but why does it mean
getting used to a whole different set of fruit & veg?
Can't we just cut a hole through the cardboard and plant our usual veg.?

Just asking before I lay the cardboard and chuck the muck on top.

I trust you mean muck under the cardboard.

* IME *better to put the muck on top to help hold down the cardboard and
stop it blowing away.. By the time the much has weathered the carboard
will have disintegrated.

that means the cardboard will disintegrate pretty quickly. Sticks or
stones can keep it down ok.

The whole point of permaculture is that it mostly uses perennials, so
you dont have to keep replanting,

*Permaculture crop production was developed for (and works in) countries
with much higher, brighter light levels, longer growing seasons etc than
the cloudy cool latitudes of the UK. I have yet to see a permanent, or
even longlived, successful fully perennial Permaculture crop garden in the
UK.

* However, UK limitations are no bar to using a Permaculture method of bed
construction in the UK, which you then plant otherwise.

* Janet.

There are such in the wild in Britain, on woodland edge, eg blackthorn
with blackberry growing under it.


NT

In article 7b359958-ee09-4751-a1be-
, says...

On Dec 20, 2:10*pm, Janet wrote:
In article 1c190a01-4547-46e7-884a-
, says...





On Dec 19, 11:42*pm, Baz wrote:
NT wrote :

+1. Cardboard is excellent. I'd also plant something light excluding
the first yr, like nettles, pumpkins, courgettes, rhubarb, etc. If
you've got compostable material, that can go down under the cardboard.
Permaculture will wipe out most of the unnecessary physical work that
annual gardens require year on year, but it means getting used to a
whole different set of fruit & veg.

NT

I am very interested in this method of gardening, but why does it mean
getting used to a whole different set of fruit & veg?
Can't we just cut a hole through the cardboard and plant our usual veg.?

Just asking before I lay the cardboard and chuck the muck on top.

I trust you mean muck under the cardboard.

* IME *better to put the muck on top to help hold down the cardboard and
stop it blowing away.. By the time the much has weathered the carboard
will have disintegrated.

that means the cardboard will disintegrate pretty quickly.

Yes, that's the intention. The cardboard is strictly temporary, only
required for a few months to defeat photosynthesis by the primary growth
(weeds, grass), killing them without need for digging or weedkiller.

Sticks or
stones can keep it down ok.

They would; but a true permaculturist would be saving sticks and stones
for longterm use (making swales, or drains). It also makes the
manure fulfill two functions, (a permaculture principle) while reducing
the required labour inputs from three to two (a permaculture and Janet
pinciple).


The whole point of permaculture is that it mostly uses perennials, so
you dont have to keep replanting,

*Permaculture crop production was developed for (and works in) countries
with much higher, brighter light levels, longer growing seasons etc than
the cloudy cool latitudes of the UK. I have yet to see a permanent, or
even longlived, successful fully perennial Permaculture crop garden in the
UK.

* However, UK limitations are no bar to using a Permaculture method of bed
construction in the UK, which you then plant otherwise.

* Janet.

There are such in the wild in Britain, on woodland edge, eg blackthorn
with blackberry growing under it.

That natural combination is not a permanent sustainable planting
though; it's transitional.

Janet

Derek Turner wrote in news:9l16tsF2daU1
@mid.individual.net:

Digging it over would be quite an undertaking; one for which I don't
really have the stamina for. I wondered if planting certain vegetable
next Spring, would make this job easier, by smothering the grass and
weeds, and perhaps improving teh soil.

I'd recommend Laminapolyethylenus negra.

Can you provide another name or a link to further info?

AL_n wrote:
Digging it over would be quite an undertaking; one for which I don't
really have the stamina for. I wondered if planting certain vegetable
next Spring, would make this job easier, by smothering the grass and
weeds, and perhaps improving teh soil.

I'd recommend Laminapolyethylenus negra.

Can you provide another name or a link to further info?

(black plastic)

Black polythene

On Dec 21, 10:38*am, Janet wrote:
In article 7b359958-ee09-4751-a1be-
, says...





On Dec 20, 2:10*pm, Janet wrote:
In article 1c190a01-4547-46e7-884a-
, says....

On Dec 19, 11:42*pm, Baz wrote:
NT wrote :

+1. Cardboard is excellent. I'd also plant something light excluding
the first yr, like nettles, pumpkins, courgettes, rhubarb, etc. If
you've got compostable material, that can go down under the cardboard.
Permaculture will wipe out most of the unnecessary physical work that
annual gardens require year on year, but it means getting used to a
whole different set of fruit & veg.

NT

I am very interested in this method of gardening, but why does it mean
getting used to a whole different set of fruit & veg?
Can't we just cut a hole through the cardboard and plant our usual veg.?

Just asking before I lay the cardboard and chuck the muck on top.

I trust you mean muck under the cardboard.

* IME *better to put the muck on top to help hold down the cardboard and
stop it blowing away.. By the time the much has weathered the carboard
will have disintegrated.

that means the cardboard will disintegrate pretty quickly.

* Yes, that's the intention. The cardboard is strictly temporary, only
required for a few months to defeat photosynthesis by the primary growth
(weeds, grass), killing them without *need for digging or weedkiller.

how long its needed depends on the weeds. The longer it lasts, the
less weeding there is to do. I like that!

*Sticks or
stones can keep it down ok.

* *They would; but a true permaculturist would be saving sticks and stones
for *longterm use (making swales, or drains). It also makes the

on some sites. I have more sticks than I can ever use

manure fulfill two functions, (a permaculture principle) while reducing
the required labour inputs from three to two (a permaculture and Janet
pinciple).

how does manure on card reduce labour over manure under card?

The whole point of permaculture is that it mostly uses perennials, so
you dont have to keep replanting,

*Permaculture crop production was developed for (and works in) countries
with much higher, brighter light levels, longer growing seasons etc than
the cloudy cool latitudes of the UK. I have yet to see a permanent, or
even longlived, successful fully perennial Permaculture crop garden in the
UK.

* However, UK limitations are no bar to using a Permaculture method of bed
construction in the UK, which you then plant otherwise.

* Janet.

There are such in the wild in Britain, on woodland edge, eg blackthorn
with blackberry growing under it.

* *That natural combination is not a permanent sustainable planting
though; it's transitional.

why do you say that?

* * Janet


NT

It's woodland *edge* - ie an open space on one side. Open spaces, left to themselves, don't stay open. The next stage in success is scrub (eg brambles and blackthorn) followed by trees which will eventually shade out the brambles and blackthorn.

Trees put a lot of energy into developing a strong trunk to be self supporting, so that they can over-top everything else and grab all the light. Everything else is to a certain extent opportunistic, making use of either temporary gaps in the tree cover, or living in areas where there isn't enough soil cover for trees (eg mountain tops, cliffs). They avoid the need to put all that effort into building trunks, but have to snatch what they can, where they can.

This is a gross simplification!

On Dec 24, 10:42*am, kay wrote:
NT;945627 Wrote:



On Dec 21, 10:38*am, Janet wrote:-
In article 7b359958-ee09-4751-a1be-
, says...

-

There are such in the wild in Britain, on woodland edge, eg
blackthorn
with blackberry growing under it.-

* *That natural combination is not a permanent sustainable planting
though; it's transitional.-

why do you say that?
-
* * Janet-

It's woodland *edge* - ie an open space on one side. Open spaces, left
to themselves, don't stay open. The next stage in success is scrub (eg
brambles and blackthorn) followed by trees which will eventually shade
out the brambles and blackthorn.

Trees put a lot of energy into developing a strong trunk to be self
supporting, so that they can over-top everything else and grab all the
light. Everything else is to a certain extent opportunistic, making use
of either *temporary gaps in the tree cover, or living in areas where
there isn't enough soil cover for trees (eg mountain tops, cliffs). They
avoid the need to put all that effort into building trunks, but have to
snatch what they can, where they can.

This is a gross simplification!

Permaculture is all about reproducing forest edge conditions, with
minimal management to effectively stabilise it.


NT

Does it have any relationship to forest gardening?

My brief look at that left me with disappointment that, in this country at least, the bottom layer didn't have a great deal in the way of useful veg - eg no beans, peas etc.

kay wrote in news:kay.9694b16
@gardenbanter.co.uk:


Black polythene

Doh! I should have got that! :-7

Al