Hi there. I'm a new member and I think this forum is going to be invaluable so lovely to meet you all.

I live on Islay in Scotland so the gardening here can be quite challenging due to salt laden air and high winds.

My question today is about my half barrel pond.

I kept 2 lovely goldfish in it for 3 years until the thaw after the very cold spell at Christmas, when they both died.This also happened to my friends parents fish (old bathtub pond ) and friends sisters fish ( another half barrel ) - all died after the thaw.We all had floats to keep a hole in the ice open but they failed - it was just too cold to prevent total freezing.

Whilst at the Glasgow branch of Dobbies last weekend , I had a chat with the fish salesman and he said without doubt in order to keep fish healthy in our present climate, I need an electric filter / oxygenator and pond heater. Goodness ! He reckoned the levels of ammonia built up in the pond whilst it was frozen as the toxic gas had nowhere to escape to and thats what killed my poor fish.

Anyone out there with advice / experience on this half barrel fish pond malarkey ? I really miss my fish but need to know how to care for any future ones properly.

Also would my pond be big enough to keep 2 metalic or ghost koi in ? I can't make a bigger pond as I'm not strong enough to dig one out .

Thank you for your help. Susan

I know people that have had parts in the filter frozen. In such low temperatures, I would advise bringing the fish inside,in the low temperature.How deep is it?

Thank you for your speedy reply.

I've just measured it - 50cm / 19 " deep.

Good idea about moving them inside in those conditions - possibly in the shed in a large (cleaned out) plastic cattle feed bin.But then would have to artificially oxygenate that ? Would be a problem as there is no electricity out there and I don't want to install any either.

Maybe install a pond heater to be activated during a harsh spell - that would keep the filter etc from freezing, yes ?

Get some oxygenators (plants). I reckon it would be easier and cheaper to bring them in, change the water every few days, 50% at a time. heaters for out doors would be expensive to run in such extreme temperatures too.
Good plants are hippuris vulgaris,and water milfoil. Just build up an edge,put some gravel in,and plant the hippuris,and the milfoil will root itself,just throw it in. Have you got any other plants in there? Plants will do the work for you.

"islaygardener" wrote in message
...

Hi there. I'm a new member and I think this forum is going to be
invaluable so lovely to meet you all.

I live on Islay in Scotland so the gardening here can be quite
challenging due to salt laden air and high winds.

My question today is about my half barrel pond.

I kept 2 lovely goldfish in it for 3 years until the thaw after the very
cold spell at Christmas, when they both died.This also happened to my
friends parents fish (old bathtub pond ) and friends sisters fish (
another half barrel ) - all died after the thaw.We all had floats to
keep a hole in the ice open but they failed - it was just too cold to
prevent total freezing.

Whilst at the Glasgow branch of Dobbies last weekend , I had a chat with
the fish salesman and he said without doubt in order to keep fish
healthy in our present climate, I need an electric filter / oxygenator
and pond heater.


Well he would wouldn't he? The important word in your posting is
""SALESMAN""

'NUFF SAID?

Mike

--

....................................
It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice.
....................................


Goodness ! He reckoned the levels of ammonia built up
in the pond whilst it was frozen as the toxic gas had nowhere to escape
to and thats what killed my poor fish.

Anyone out there with advice / experience on this half barrel fish pond
malarkey ? I really miss my fish but need to know how to care for any
future ones properly.

Also would my pond be big enough to keep 2 metalic or ghost koi in ? I
can't make a bigger pond as I'm not strong enough to dig one out .

Thank you for your help. Susan




--
islaygardener

On Sun, 15 May 2011 10:49:58 +0000, islaygardener
wrote:


Hi there. I'm a new member and I think this forum is going to be
invaluable so lovely to meet you all.

I live on Islay in Scotland so the gardening here can be quite
challenging due to salt laden air and high winds.

My question today is about my half barrel pond.

I kept 2 lovely goldfish in it for 3 years until the thaw after the very
cold spell at Christmas, when they both died.This also happened to my
friends parents fish (old bathtub pond ) and friends sisters fish (
another half barrel ) - all died after the thaw.We all had floats to
keep a hole in the ice open but they failed - it was just too cold to
prevent total freezing.

Whilst at the Glasgow branch of Dobbies last weekend , I had a chat with
the fish salesman and he said without doubt in order to keep fish
healthy in our present climate, I need an electric filter / oxygenator
and pond heater. Goodness ! He reckoned the levels of ammonia built up
in the pond whilst it was frozen as the toxic gas had nowhere to escape
to and thats what killed my poor fish.

Anyone out there with advice / experience on this half barrel fish pond
malarkey ? I really miss my fish but need to know how to care for any
future ones properly.

Also would my pond be big enough to keep 2 metalic or ghost koi in ? I
can't make a bigger pond as I'm not strong enough to dig one out .

Thank you for your help. Susan

A half barrel water feature is ok as a water feature with a few plants
in it. I would never even think of keeping fish in one. Either get
yourself an indoor tank system and keep tropical fish or dig a proper
pond. And please don't even think of Koi. They are very demanding as
to conditions (they grow big you know) and you won't supply those in
a half barrel. If you want to keep Koi, a few 4" long ones will
probably be ok if the water surface area of your barrel is about 50
square feet and you put a net over the top to stop them jumping out!

In cold winters, the chill enters a pond from above. It enters
anything above ground (like your half barrel) from above and also from
the sides. So a prolonged cold spell not only freezes the surface but
it starts freezing the water in from the sides of the barrel.

"islaygardener" wrote


Hi there. I'm a new member and I think this forum is going to be
invaluable so lovely to meet you all.

I live on Islay in Scotland so the gardening here can be quite
challenging due to salt laden air and high winds.

My question today is about my half barrel pond.

I kept 2 lovely goldfish in it for 3 years until the thaw after the very
cold spell at Christmas, when they both died.This also happened to my
friends parents fish (old bathtub pond ) and friends sisters fish (
another half barrel ) - all died after the thaw.We all had floats to
keep a hole in the ice open but they failed - it was just too cold to
prevent total freezing.

Whilst at the Glasgow branch of Dobbies last weekend , I had a chat with
the fish salesman and he said without doubt in order to keep fish
healthy in our present climate, I need an electric filter / oxygenator
and pond heater. Goodness ! He reckoned the levels of ammonia built up
in the pond whilst it was frozen as the toxic gas had nowhere to escape
to and thats what killed my poor fish.

Anyone out there with advice / experience on this half barrel fish pond
malarkey ? I really miss my fish but need to know how to care for any
future ones properly.

Also would my pond be big enough to keep 2 metallic or ghost koi in ? I
can't make a bigger pond as I'm not strong enough to dig one out .

Thank you for your help. Susan


The salesperson may well be right but do remember they are trying to sell
stuff for a living. Two small goldfish in a good sized half barrel should
not make too much detritus to rot under an ice layer especially as any rot
is also slowed by the cold. More likely the fish had food in their guts when
the cold struck, being cold blooded they stopped digesting it and it
fermented inside them. It's why it's very important to stop feeding fish
when the water temperature goes below 50°F or 10°C.
Next time during the autumn try using a hose to siphon off any muck on the
bottom so the barrel is much cleaner before the winter sets in. A clay
flower pot on it's side on the bottom also gives them somewhere to hide and
feel safe.

There is no way you should contemplate putting carp in your barrel, Koi can
get to 3ft long in perfect conditions and 2ft almost anywhere so stick to
Goldfish (and I've seen one of those over 2lbs in weight!!).

--
Regards
Bob Hobden
W.of London. UK

"kathateria" wrote ..

islaygardener;921479 Wrote:
Thank you for your speedy reply.

I've just measured it - 50cm / 19 " deep.

Good idea about moving them inside in those conditions - possibly in the
shed in a large (cleaned out) plastic cattle feed bin.But then would
have to artificially oxygenate that ? Would be a problem as there is no
electricity out there and I don't want to install any either.

Maybe install a pond heater to be activated during a harsh spell - that
would keep the filter etc from freezing, yes ?

Get some oxygenators (plants). I reckon it would be easier and cheaper
to bring them in, change the water every few days, 50% at a time.
heaters for out doors would be expensive to run in such extreme
temperatures too.
Good plants are hippuris vulgaris,and wa ter milfoil. Just build up an
edge,put some gravel in,and plant the hippuris,and the milfoil will root
itself,just throw it in. Have you got any other plants in there? Plants
will do the work for you.

NOT in the winter they won't, indeed plants die back and their debris rots
in the winter which will only add to your problems. Too many "oxygenating"
plants in a pond if often the cause of the total wipeout of fish over night
especially during hot sultry nights. They make oxygen during the day but
breath like us at night breathing in oxygen and pumping out carbon dioxide.

--
Regards
Bob Hobden
W.of London. UK

On Sun, 15 May 2011 18:10:59 +0100, Chris Hogg wrote:

Whilst at the Glasgow branch of Dobbies last weekend , I had a
chat
with the fish salesman and he said without doubt in order to keep
fish
healthy in our present climate, I need an electric filter /
oxygenator
and pond heater. Goodness !

Hum, when I was a lad we kept a goldfish in a tank on the side board
with no filter, lights, heater etc. Seemed happy enough. No.1
Daughter now has a cold water aquarium with filter and airator,
(limited light to stop it going green) though the Hill Stream Loaches
keep the glass stones ornaments pretty clean. The fish we had when I
was a lad would just sort of drift about slowly, these ones zoom
around all over the place. So I guess they are in a better enviroment
but getting that enviroment established with the ammonia nitrite
nitrate process is a right beggar.

He reckoned the levels of ammonia built up in the pond whilst it
was
frozen as the toxic gas had nowhere to escape to and thats what
killed
my poor fish.

I have my doubts. I think the salesman is moving indoor aquarium
keeping to small outdoor ponds and that may not be the correct thing
to do. One assumes these fish have otherwise been happy and the
others in the area that also died and that all have survived previous
winters.

Whether your fish died from the build-up of toxic gases or whether they
just froze solid, I don't know,

If they survived previous winters I'd go for simple frozen to death,
either by the actual cold going to low or just the period of cold
being too much.

Goldfish are very inactive in cold weather, and I doubt that much
ammonia is produced, although I may be wrong.

IIRC the ammonia is fish wee, as you say very inactive when it gets
cold, so little ammonia produced.

But I would be inclined to investigate a low-wattage heater to stop it
freezing solid, preferably one fitted with a thermostat that you can
set at a few degrees above zero so that the heater's only on when
there's a real danger of freezing.

I wouldn't, it'll tend to make the water circulate and unless you
pump in enough heat to make up for all the losses I suspect a
partially heated is more likely to freeze solid. Water has it's
highest density at about 4C so colder water will tend to float on top
and freeze, ice is also a reasonable insulator. Ponds and lakes
rarely freeze more than a foot thick in this country.

Personally I think it was just the extreme cold for an extended
period that killed the fish. Just one of those things I'm afraid.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Thanks so much, everyone, for your really helpful replies. I must admit it never occured to me that the sides of the barrel would freeze as well- doh ! but of course they would ! Well - I think the new plan so far is to stick with goldfish, move them inside in icy conditions,replacing water as suggested. I'll forget the heater, I think but I would like some sort of water filter / oxygenator for the fish and also for water clarity - I have plants in there but it's still murky. Can anyone recommend some kit please ? And are water oxygenators / filters totally different things ? ( I did explain I am a complete novice ...)

"islaygardener" wrote in message
...

Hi there. I'm a new member and I think this forum is going to be
invaluable so lovely to meet you all.

I live on Islay in Scotland so the gardening here can be quite
challenging due to salt laden air and high winds.

My question today is about my half barrel pond.

I kept 2 lovely goldfish in it for 3 years until the thaw after the very
cold spell at Christmas, when they both died.This also happened to my
friends parents fish (old bathtub pond ) and friends sisters fish (
another half barrel ) - all died after the thaw.We all had floats to
keep a hole in the ice open but they failed - it was just too cold to
prevent total freezing.

Whilst at the Glasgow branch of Dobbies last weekend , I had a chat with
the fish salesman and he said without doubt in order to keep fish
healthy in our present climate, I need an electric filter / oxygenator
and pond heater. Goodness ! He reckoned the levels of ammonia built up
in the pond whilst it was frozen as the toxic gas had nowhere to escape
to and thats what killed my poor fish.

Anyone out there with advice / experience on this half barrel fish pond
malarkey ? I really miss my fish but need to know how to care for any
future ones properly.

Also would my pond be big enough to keep 2 metalic or ghost koi in ? I
can't make a bigger pond as I'm not strong enough to dig one out .

Thank you for your help. Susan



Your problems stem from the fact the pond is not below ground and therefore
the frost line, whilst in the uk this is fine most of the time it is not
fine in very cold weather as it allows the pond to freeze too deeply.

The answer is to have on winter standby some heavy duty insulation so you
can cover the outside thickly when its going to be cold , may be this can be
made perminant with a decrotive outer skin and insulation between? a heater
may help keep a small area of surface free of ice but would not be able to
keep the whole pond temperature up. Neither would a filter help.
Stick to small gold fish and not too many, a half barrel is not much better
than a fish tank with regard to how many fish it will sustain.

Have a good autumn clean up and remove any debris


--
Charlie, Gardening in Cornwall
Holders of National Collections of Clematis viticella
and Lapageria rosea cvs
http://www.roselandhouse.co.uk

"islaygardener" wrote


Thanks so much, everyone, for your really helpful replies. I must admit
it never occured to me that the sides of the barrel would freeze as
well- doh ! but of course they would ! Well - I think the new plan so
far is to stick with goldfish, move them inside in icy
conditions,replacing water as suggested. I'll forget the heater, I think
but I would like some sort of water filter / oxygenator for the fish and
also for water clarity - I have plants in there but it's still murky.
Can anyone recommend some kit please ? And are water oxygenators /
filters totally different things ? ( I did explain I am a complete
novice ...)


I was a novice once, when I was about 5. :-)
I would suggest an undergravel filter as used in tropical fish tanks run by
an air pump, that way you get the gas exchange and biological filtration.
Two for the price of one. You can site the pump in a shed or somewhere with
an electrical supply that will mask the sound the pump makes (they all do
despite what shops say!), as, for biological filtration, it needs to run
24/7. You can then use a run of clear plastic airline tubing to the barrel.
You need an Air Pump, an Air Stone, an undergravel filter to fit the bottom
of the barrel, some gravel to go over the top of the filter and a length of
plastic airline. All obtainable from your local Tropical Fish emporium.
--
Regards
Bob Hobden
W.of London. UK

Once the ice on our pond started to melt and came clear of the sides, I looked to see how thick it was - at that stage it was still about 12 inches thick. So a half barrel would probably have been frozen solid. But Islay is a lot warmer in winter than Yorkshire, so I don't know.

Thanks, Bob - that was exactly the type of 'shopping list' I needed ! The barrel is to the left of my front door, beneath the porch window , with the back of it up against the wall,so I guess the electrician could drill a hole through the wall for the electrics and the pump could live inside in the corner of the porch - not a problem as it's only used for hanging coats. Excellent advice .

I think you are right, Kay and my barrel froze solid.We've had ice and snow here at Christmas for the past 3 years - before that, it generally snowed just a little in Jan/ Feb or sometimes, not at all. Poor fish ! I'll bring the new ones in next winter to the shed and sea how it goes. Islay is a lot warmer than Yorkshire but even the biggest sea loch partially froze over last year and we all expect the same sort of weather again. On a plus side, the broom and gorse have had magnificent shows of blooms since this change - maybe they like the cold snap, and we quite enjoy the unusual dryness and quiet at what is normally a windswept rainy winter, so it has it's plus points.