There is a little area of my garden in which nothing has ever grown. I
have known for a while that if I dig more than a couple of inches down I
come across bricks. A neighbour tells me that this area used to be a
chrysanthemum farm and I have always assumed that these bricks were the
foundations for a greenhouse of some description. Last weekend I took
the opportunity to dig further with a view to finally getting some
garden that I can grow something in. I now think that what I have is not
the foundations of a greenhouse but am at a loss to explain what it is.

What I have found is approximately 7’ by 3’ in size. It consists of a
single skin of brick which is divided into three sections by two brick
partitions; the centre section being wider than the other two. Into each
section there is a salt clay pipe that goes down into the ground with a
pipe T’ed from it horizontally about 8 inches below the surface. In the
case of the two end sections this pipe runs straight through the garden
but in the case of the centre section it just exits into the right hand
chamber.

I have not yet found the foundations but it goes down at least ten rows
of bricks at which point it reaches the water table. Could it be
connected with irrigation?

Interestingly the far long wall (nearest to the property boundary) has
the top two rows of bricks laid at right angles and offset towards the
chambers. This is then concreted on the outside making it look as if it
might have been part of a low curved roof over the chambers with the
pipes exiting through it.

The soil that I have removed from the chambers contained a lot of rubble
suggesting that there might have been some sort of structure on top that
was knocked down before being covered earth.

The bricks are Eastwoods Flettons which as far as I can find out were
manufactured at Kempston near Bedford. The Eastwoods Flettons company
was not founded until 1927 so it can be no earlier than that. However
the same bricks were used in the construction of the house so I think it
likely that it was built at the same time as the house, which would date
it as 1948/49. It is also parallel to and close to the boundary, which
wouldn’t have been present any earlier.

The structure is not shown on any local maps from that era and the
original plans for the house are not in the local archives. What I have
found out though is that the land was originally classed as farmland.
There was a market garden further down the road, which could be where
the reports of a Chrysanthemum farm came from.

For anyone interested there are some pictures at
http://www.girton.ukfsn.org/excavations.

Does anyone have any idea what this might have been? I am intrigued to
know before I raze it to the ground to get my garden back.

Andrew

Cross-posted to uk.rec.gardening as I suspect it might have had some
horticultural use.

Andrew May wrote:

Whoops! Cross-posting didn't work. Looks like Thunderbird needs a comma
and not a semi-colon between groups. This should get to both. Sorry.

There is a little area of my garden in which nothing has ever grown. I
have known for a while that if I dig more than a couple of inches down I
come across bricks. A neighbour tells me that this area used to be a
chrysanthemum farm and I have always assumed that these bricks were the
foundations for a greenhouse of some description. Last weekend I took
the opportunity to dig further with a view to finally getting some
garden that I can grow something in. I now think that what I have is not
the foundations of a greenhouse but am at a loss to explain what it is.

What I have found is approximately 7’ by 3’ in size. It consists of a
single skin of brick which is divided into three sections by two brick
partitions; the centre section being wider than the other two. Into each
section there is a salt clay pipe that goes down into the ground with a
pipe T’ed from it horizontally about 8 inches below the surface. In the
case of the two end sections this pipe runs straight through the garden
but in the case of the centre section it just exits into the right hand
chamber.

I have not yet found the foundations but it goes down at least ten rows
of bricks at which point it reaches the water table. Could it be
connected with irrigation?

Interestingly the far long wall (nearest to the property boundary) has
the top two rows of bricks laid at right angles and offset towards the
chambers. This is then concreted on the outside making it look as if it
might have been part of a low curved roof over the chambers with the
pipes exiting through it.

The soil that I have removed from the chambers contained a lot of rubble
suggesting that there might have been some sort of structure on top that
was knocked down before being covered earth.

The bricks are Eastwoods Flettons which as far as I can find out were
manufactured at Kempston near Bedford. The Eastwoods Flettons company
was not founded until 1927 so it can be no earlier than that. However
the same bricks were used in the construction of the house so I think it
likely that it was built at the same time as the house, which would date
it as 1948/49. It is also parallel to and close to the boundary, which
wouldn’t have been present any earlier.

The structure is not shown on any local maps from that era and the
original plans for the house are not in the local archives. What I have
found out though is that the land was originally classed as farmland.
There was a market garden further down the road, which could be where
the reports of a Chrysanthemum farm came from.

For anyone interested there are some pictures at
http://www.girton.ukfsn.org/excavations.

Does anyone have any idea what this might have been? I am intrigued to
know before I raze it to the ground to get my garden back.

Andrew

Cross-posted to uk.rec.gardening as I suspect it might have had some
horticultural use.

"Andrew May" wrote in message
...
There is a little area of my garden in which nothing has ever grown. I
have known for a while that if I dig more than a couple of inches down I
come across bricks. A neighbour tells me that this area used to be a
chrysanthemum farm and I have always assumed that these bricks were the
foundations for a greenhouse of some description. Last weekend I took the
opportunity to dig further with a view to finally getting some garden that
I can grow something in. I now think that what I have is not the
foundations of a greenhouse but am at a loss to explain what it is.

What I have found is approximately 7’ by 3’ in size. It consists of a
single skin of brick which is divided into three sections by two brick
partitions; the centre section being wider than the other two. Into each
section there is a salt clay pipe that goes down into the ground with a
pipe T’ed from it horizontally about 8 inches below the surface. In the
case of the two end sections this pipe runs straight through the garden
but in the case of the centre section it just exits into the right hand
chamber.

I have not yet found the foundations but it goes down at least ten rows of
bricks at which point it reaches the water table. Could it be connected
with irrigation?

Interestingly the far long wall (nearest to the property boundary) has the
top two rows of bricks laid at right angles and offset towards the
chambers. This is then concreted on the outside making it look as if it
might have been part of a low curved roof over the chambers with the pipes
exiting through it.

The soil that I have removed from the chambers contained a lot of rubble
suggesting that there might have been some sort of structure on top that
was knocked down before being covered earth.

The bricks are Eastwoods Flettons which as far as I can find out were
manufactured at Kempston near Bedford. The Eastwoods Flettons company was
not founded until 1927 so it can be no earlier than that. However the same
bricks were used in the construction of the house so I think it likely
that it was built at the same time as the house, which would date it as
1948/49. It is also parallel to and close to the boundary, which wouldn’t
have been present any earlier.

The structure is not shown on any local maps from that era and the
original plans for the house are not in the local archives. What I have
found out though is that the land was originally classed as farmland.
There was a market garden further down the road, which could be where the
reports of a Chrysanthemum farm came from.

For anyone interested there are some pictures at
http://www.girton.ukfsn.org/excavations.

Does anyone have any idea what this might have been? I am intrigued to
know before I raze it to the ground to get my garden back.

Andrew



I had something like that in my late Victorian house. It linked to a
vertical cast iron pipe of about 4" dia. which was the vent. I assumed it
was some sort of sewage/cess pit facility. It was made redundant when
mains sewers arrived. I refer to something that was totally underground
apart from the vent pipe.

mark

For anyone interested there are some pictures at
http://www.girton.ukfsn.org/excavations.

Does anyone have any idea what this might have been? I am intrigued to
know before I raze it to the ground to get my garden back.

Looks like the remains of a ouside toilet block to me.

Mike

--
..
"mark" wrote in message
...

"Andrew May" wrote in message
...
There is a little area of my garden in which nothing has ever grown. I
have known for a while that if I dig more than a couple of inches down I
come across bricks. A neighbour tells me that this area used to be a
chrysanthemum farm and I have always assumed that these bricks were the
foundations for a greenhouse of some description. Last weekend I took the
opportunity to dig further with a view to finally getting some garden
that I can grow something in. I now think that what I have is not the
foundations of a greenhouse but am at a loss to explain what it is.

What I have found is approximately 7' by 3' in size. It consists of a
single skin of brick which is divided into three sections by two brick
partitions; the centre section being wider than the other two. Into each
section there is a salt clay pipe that goes down into the ground with a
pipe T'ed from it horizontally about 8 inches below the surface. In the
case of the two end sections this pipe runs straight through the garden
but in the case of the centre section it just exits into the right hand
chamber.

I have not yet found the foundations but it goes down at least ten rows
of bricks at which point it reaches the water table. Could it be
connected with irrigation?

Interestingly the far long wall (nearest to the property boundary) has
the top two rows of bricks laid at right angles and offset towards the
chambers. This is then concreted on the outside making it look as if it
might have been part of a low curved roof over the chambers with the
pipes exiting through it.

The soil that I have removed from the chambers contained a lot of rubble
suggesting that there might have been some sort of structure on top that
was knocked down before being covered earth.

The bricks are Eastwoods Flettons which as far as I can find out were
manufactured at Kempston near Bedford. The Eastwoods Flettons company was
not founded until 1927 so it can be no earlier than that. However the
same bricks were used in the construction of the house so I think it
likely that it was built at the same time as the house, which would date
it as 1948/49. It is also parallel to and close to the boundary, which
wouldn't have been present any earlier.

The structure is not shown on any local maps from that era and the
original plans for the house are not in the local archives. What I have
found out though is that the land was originally classed as farmland.
There was a market garden further down the road, which could be where the
reports of a Chrysanthemum farm came from.

For anyone interested there are some pictures at
http://www.girton.ukfsn.org/excavations.

Does anyone have any idea what this might have been? I am intrigued to
know before I raze it to the ground to get my garden back.

Andrew



I had something like that in my late Victorian house. It linked to a
vertical cast iron pipe of about 4" dia. which was the vent. I assumed it
was some sort of sewage/cess pit facility. It was made redundant when
mains sewers arrived. I refer to something that was totally underground
apart from the vent pipe.

mark


My thoughts were sewerage etc, but unless they were settling tanks, surely
they are not deep enough, and as settling tanks, not sufficient area.

I had a friend who had a Crysant farm and he had nothing like that on the
site as far as I know.

Fascinating!

Mike

On May 8, 8:40*am, Andrew May wrote:
There is a little area of my garden in which nothing has ever grown. I
have known for a while that if I dig more than a couple of inches down I
come across bricks. A neighbour tells me that this area used to be a
chrysanthemum farm and I have always assumed that these bricks were the
foundations for a greenhouse of some description. Last weekend I took
the opportunity to dig further with a view to finally getting some
garden that I can grow something in. I now think that what I have is not
the foundations of a greenhouse but am at a loss to explain what it is.

What I have found is approximately 7’ by 3’ in size. It consists of a
single skin of brick which is divided into three sections by two brick
partitions; the centre section being wider than the other two. Into each
section there is a salt clay pipe that goes down into the ground with a
pipe T’ed from it horizontally about 8 inches below the surface. In the
case of the two end sections this pipe runs straight through the garden
but in the case of the centre section it just exits into the right hand
chamber.

I have not yet found the foundations but it goes down at least ten rows
of bricks at which point it reaches the water table. Could it be
connected with irrigation?

Interestingly the far long wall (nearest to the property boundary) has
the top two rows of bricks laid at right angles and offset towards the
chambers. This is then concreted on the outside making it look as if it
might have been part of a low curved roof over the chambers with the
pipes exiting through it.

The soil that I have removed from the chambers contained a lot of rubble
suggesting that there might have been some sort of structure on top that
was knocked down before being covered earth.

The bricks are Eastwoods Flettons which as far as I can find out were
manufactured at Kempston near Bedford. The Eastwoods Flettons company
was not founded until 1927 so it can be no earlier than that. However
the same bricks were used in the construction of the house so I think it
likely that it was built at the same time as the house, which would date
it as 1948/49. It is also parallel to and close to the boundary, which
wouldn’t have been present any earlier.

The structure is not shown on any local maps from that era and the
original plans for the house are not in the local archives. What I have
found out though is that the land was originally classed as farmland.
There was a market garden further down the road, which could be where
the reports of a Chrysanthemum farm came from.

For anyone interested there are some pictures athttp://www.girton.ukfsn.org/excavations.

Does anyone have any idea what this might have been? I am intrigued to
know before I raze it to the ground to get my garden back.

Andrew

Cross-posted to uk.rec.gardening as I suspect it might have had some
horticultural use.

It looks like a row of outside lavatories; such as were used in
schools?

Judith

On Fri, 8 May 2009 09:01:27 +0100, Mike wrote:

My thoughts were sewerage etc, but unless they were settling tanks,
surely they are not deep enough, and as settling tanks, not sufficient
area.

My thoughts as well, but a bit small unless they extend under the grassed
area a little way. We don't really know how deep each chamber is as they
haven't been fully dug out. The arrangement of horizontal pipe into a T is
typical of the inlet/outlet arrangements of a septic tank. I can't see how
the middle chamber connects to the top/left hand one though.

The verticals don't seem to be in the right place for accepting a bottom
outlet toilet pan if it was an outside karzi.

--
Cheers
Dave.

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.net...
On Fri, 8 May 2009 09:01:27 +0100, Mike wrote:

My thoughts were sewerage etc, but unless they were settling tanks,
surely they are not deep enough, and as settling tanks, not sufficient
area.

My thoughts as well, but a bit small unless they extend under the grassed
area a little way. We don't really know how deep each chamber is as they
haven't been fully dug out. The arrangement of horizontal pipe into a T is
typical of the inlet/outlet arrangements of a septic tank. I can't see how
the middle chamber connects to the top/left hand one though.

The verticals don't seem to be in the right place for accepting a bottom
outlet toilet pan if it was an outside karzi.

On further inspection of the images I think you are right, The top/left
chamber may connect to the centre one further down, if so its certainly a
three stage septic tank. Ten rows of bricks down sounds high for the water
table. Is it that high outside the brickwork? If not it may be that the
chambers are still retaining water. If the rubble inside is loose it could
be the remains of the old lid structure. These were sometimes concrete slab
and sometimes corbeled brickwork the beginnings of which can be seen.

Keep digging you may find treasure.

Mike

Andrew May wrote:
There is a little area of my garden in which nothing has ever grown. I
have known for a while that if I dig more than a couple of inches down I
come across bricks. A neighbour tells me that this area used to be a
chrysanthemum farm and I have always assumed that these bricks were the
foundations for a greenhouse of some description. Last weekend I took
the opportunity to dig further with a view to finally getting some
garden that I can grow something in. I now think that what I have is not
the foundations of a greenhouse but am at a loss to explain what it is.

What I have found is approximately 7� by 3� in size. It consists of a
single skin of brick which is divided into three sections by two brick
partitions; the centre section being wider than the other two. Into each
section there is a salt clay pipe that goes down into the ground with a
pipe T�ed from it horizontally about 8 inches below the surface. In the
case of the two end sections this pipe runs straight through the garden
but in the case of the centre section it just exits into the right hand
chamber.

I have not yet found the foundations but it goes down at least ten rows
of bricks at which point it reaches the water table. Could it be
connected with irrigation?

Interestingly the far long wall (nearest to the property boundary) has
the top two rows of bricks laid at right angles and offset towards the
chambers. This is then concreted on the outside making it look as if it
might have been part of a low curved roof over the chambers with the
pipes exiting through it.

The soil that I have removed from the chambers contained a lot of rubble
suggesting that there might have been some sort of structure on top that
was knocked down before being covered earth.

The bricks are Eastwoods Flettons which as far as I can find out were
manufactured at Kempston near Bedford. The Eastwoods Flettons company
was not founded until 1927 so it can be no earlier than that. However
the same bricks were used in the construction of the house so I think it
likely that it was built at the same time as the house, which would date
it as 1948/49. It is also parallel to and close to the boundary, which
wouldn�t have been present any earlier.

The structure is not shown on any local maps from that era and the
original plans for the house are not in the local archives. What I have
found out though is that the land was originally classed as farmland.
There was a market garden further down the road, which could be where
the reports of a Chrysanthemum farm came from.

For anyone interested there are some pictures at
http://www.girton.ukfsn.org/excavations.

Does anyone have any idea what this might have been? I am intrigued to
know before I raze it to the ground to get my garden back.

Andrew

Cross-posted to uk.rec.gardening as I suspect it might have had some
horticultural use.

You should be able to get plants growing fine without removing the
brickwork. Just dig the contents out and put good soil in, plus either
rotted material or some assorted vegetable matter a foot down. Or if
you wanted cold frames, put polythene or glass on top and dont fill
them.


NT

Muddymike wrote:

On further inspection of the images I think you are right, The top/left
chamber may connect to the centre one further down, if so its certainly a
three stage septic tank. Ten rows of bricks down sounds high for the water
table. Is it that high outside the brickwork? If not it may be that the
chambers are still retaining water. If the rubble inside is loose it could
be the remains of the old lid structure. These were sometimes concrete slab
and sometimes corbeled brickwork the beginnings of which can be seen.


Thanks all, some useful pointers. To answer a few questions:

I had rejected the idea of a row of outside toilets. They are not the
same size, they are probably a bit small, the outlet pipes are in the
wrong place – I would expect them to be at the rear, they all flow into
different places and it was probably built the same time as the house so
one toilet I could possibly accept but not three. The house was built
with two inside toilets as it was. One each upstairs and downstairs.

A septic tank seems more likely. I hadn’t realised that they came in
three parts. It would also be consistent with the left hand pipe coming
from the direction of the house and the right hand pipe flowing towards
a ditch at the bottom of the garden although I haven’t dug to find where
either actually goes. The left hand pipe is also in line with where the
soil stack used to be.

It is possible that the construction was mirrored under the lawn and
that the front edge was some form of centre walls. That would explain
why it is a straight run of bricks doesn’t match the other side with the
corbelling. Most of what you see in the pictures was under a paving slab
path - an extension of the original concrete path so the slabs could
have been laid when the septic tank was abandoned.

What is not so clear is why there would be a septic tank in the first
place. The whole area as laid out in the 1930s and is only a couple of
miles from the centre of Cambridge (and just of the main road to boot)
so I would have thought it would have had mains sewerage from day one.
However, although the first eight houses (4 pairs of semis) in the road
were built just before the war all the others were built after. Mine was
one of the first (maybe even the first) to be built post-war. Is it
possible that this was a semi-temporary structure put in so that the
house could be built before the sewers were extended to that end of the
road?

And yes, the water table is normally at about that level. When I
replaced the lead water main a couple of years ago the new pipe had to
be laid under water to get it to the regulation 600mm depth. Mind you
that was in a particularly wet February. I am told that the geology is a
gravel filled gault clay basin. There is also a ditch at the bottom of
the garden which is reportedly supplied by a spring further upstream.
Certainly that area of garden can get pretty waterlogged in the winter
and stay moist even in a dry summer. This may be why, if it is a septic
tank, it was built so high.

If I get a chance I will dig some more over the weekend. If it is a
septic tank then it should have a solid base at some point and I would
like to find it.

Thanks again,

Andrew

In article ,
says...
There is a little area of my garden in which nothing has ever grown. I
have known for a while that if I dig more than a couple of inches down I
come across bricks. A neighbour tells me that this area used to be a
chrysanthemum farm and I have always assumed that these bricks were the
foundations for a greenhouse of some description. Last weekend I took
the opportunity to dig further with a view to finally getting some
garden that I can grow something in. I now think that what I have is not
the foundations of a greenhouse but am at a loss to explain what it is.

What I have found is approximately 7? by 3? in size. It consists of a
single skin of brick which is divided into three sections by two brick
partitions; the centre section being wider than the other two. Into each
section there is a salt clay pipe that goes down into the ground with a
pipe T?ed from it horizontally about 8 inches below the surface. In the
case of the two end sections this pipe runs straight through the garden
but in the case of the centre section it just exits into the right hand
chamber.

I have not yet found the foundations but it goes down at least ten rows
of bricks at which point it reaches the water table. Could it be
connected with irrigation?

Interestingly the far long wall (nearest to the property boundary) has
the top two rows of bricks laid at right angles and offset towards the
chambers. This is then concreted on the outside making it look as if it
might have been part of a low curved roof over the chambers with the
pipes exiting through it.

The soil that I have removed from the chambers contained a lot of rubble
suggesting that there might have been some sort of structure on top that
was knocked down before being covered earth.

The bricks are Eastwoods Flettons which as far as I can find out were
manufactured at Kempston near Bedford. The Eastwoods Flettons company
was not founded until 1927 so it can be no earlier than that. However
the same bricks were used in the construction of the house so I think it
likely that it was built at the same time as the house, which would date
it as 1948/49. It is also parallel to and close to the boundary, which
wouldn?t have been present any earlier.

The structure is not shown on any local maps from that era and the
original plans for the house are not in the local archives. What I have
found out though is that the land was originally classed as farmland.
There was a market garden further down the road, which could be where
the reports of a Chrysanthemum farm came from.

For anyone interested there are some pictures at
http://www.girton.ukfsn.org/excavations.

Does anyone have any idea what this might have been? I am intrigued to
I am going to guess at Septic tank
--
Charlie Pridham, Gardening in Cornwall
www.roselandhouse.co.uk
Holders of national collections of Clematis viticella cultivars and
Lapageria rosea

some snipping--


For anyone interested there are some pictures at
http://www.girton.ukfsn.org/excavations.

Does anyone have any idea what this might have been? I am intrigued to
I am going to guess at Septic tank
--
Charlie Pridham, Gardening in Cornwall



Looks like a job for Time Team :-)

kate

On Fri, 08 May 2009 13:20:57 +0100, Andrew May wrote:
If I get a chance I will dig some more over the weekend. If it is a
septic tank then it should have a solid base at some point and I would
like to find it.

This is where you find a sodding great wartime air-raid shelter or other
such structure :-)

(have Google or any of the other imagery services got high-res data for
your area? A look at the lawn from above *might* reveal discolouration if
there's anything just below the surface there)

cheers

Jules

In message , Kate
Morgan writes

some snipping--

For anyone interested there are some pictures at
http://www.girton.ukfsn.org/excavations.
Does anyone have any idea what this might have been? I am intrigued
to
I am going to guess at Septic tank

Outside loos, anyway, with provision for courting couples.
(Leading to septic tank possibly)?

Looks like a job for Time Team :-)

kate

"Baldrick! Dig here whilst I waft some lavender 'neath my
nostrils".
--
Gordon H
Remove "invalid" to reply

Jules wrote:
On Fri, 08 May 2009 13:20:57 +0100, Andrew May wrote:
If I get a chance I will dig some more over the weekend. If it is a
septic tank then it should have a solid base at some point and I would
like to find it.

This is where you find a sodding great wartime air-raid shelter or other
such structure :-)

(have Google or any of the other imagery services got high-res data for
your area? A look at the lawn from above *might* reveal discolouration if
there's anything just below the surface there)


I did wonder whether it might be an air-raid shelter but given how it is
divided up the majority of the structure would have to have been above
ground. Besides the most likely would have been an Anderson Shelter and
I don't think they had any foundations. Just a corrugated iron shelter
buried in the ground with the soil removed to bury it spread over the
top. Very simple and quite efficient. Don’t think they had inside
toilets either.

Microsoft Local Live has some pretty good aerial views of the area and
shows nothing untoward. Not that I would have expected it to. I planted
that particular section of lawn and it was well rotavated before being
sown. I am under the impression that that particular area had been a
vegetable patch so had probably been well dug will before I moved in.

Andrew