Would I be correct in saying the key thing for pollination
of a bramley apple tree is that there is another (different
variety) apple tree in flower nearby at the same time?

My books made apple tree pollination sound very complex
with lists of what will pollinate what and whether is is in
group one, two or three, but a web site I've just visited
implied that it simply comes down to having apple trees
that flower at the same time - is this the case?
--
David in Normandy.
To e-mail you must include the password FROG on the
subject line, or it will be automatically deleted
by a filter and not reach my inbox.

"David in Normandy" wrote in message
...
Would I be correct in saying the key thing for pollination
of a bramley apple tree is that there is another (different
variety) apple tree in flower nearby at the same time?

My books made apple tree pollination sound very complex
with lists of what will pollinate what and whether is is in
group one, two or three, but a web site I've just visited
implied that it simply comes down to having apple trees
that flower at the same time - is this the case?

Yeah pretty much, the groups are just the approximate flowering times. Two
of the same variety should be ok.
--
Rhiannon_s
I am me, this is now, we are here!

"David in Normandy" wrote
Would I be correct in saying the key thing for pollination
of a bramley apple tree is that there is another (different
variety) apple tree in flower nearby at the same time?

My books made apple tree pollination sound very complex
with lists of what will pollinate what and whether is is in
group one, two or three, but a web site I've just visited
implied that it simply comes down to having apple trees
that flower at the same time - is this the case?

I thought you needed two pollinators for Bramley.

--
Regards
Bob Hobden

David in Normandy writes
Would I be correct in saying the key thing for pollination
of a bramley apple tree is that there is another (different
variety) apple tree in flower nearby at the same time?

Yes.
Except that Bramley is odd in that it won't itself pollinate another
tree, so is the tree that you are using to pollinate the Bramley is
yours, you'll need a third tree to pollinate the pollinator.

My books made apple tree pollination sound very complex
with lists of what will pollinate what and whether is is in
group one, two or three, but a web site I've just visited
implied that it simply comes down to having apple trees
that flower at the same time - is this the case?

Yes.

What the numbers are all about is telling you when the trees flower, so
that if the tree you are interested in is a 3, other 3s should be out at
the same time and will pollinate it, 2's will be a bit early and 4s a
bit late, but will overlap so will do at a pinch, and 1s and 5s probably
won't be of any use because their flowers won't be out at the same time.

The numbers mean you can buy your trees at any time of the year, instead
of having to wait till spring and buying two which are the same stage of
flowering ;-)
--
Kay

Bob Hobden writes

"David in Normandy" wrote
Would I be correct in saying the key thing for pollination
of a bramley apple tree is that there is another (different
variety) apple tree in flower nearby at the same time?

My books made apple tree pollination sound very complex
with lists of what will pollinate what and whether is is in
group one, two or three, but a web site I've just visited
implied that it simply comes down to having apple trees
that flower at the same time - is this the case?

I thought you needed two pollinators for Bramley.

No, just the one. But Bramley won't reciprocate so you need the second
tree to pollinate the pollinator.
--
Kay

Bob Hobden says...

"David in Normandy" wrote
Would I be correct in saying the key thing for pollination
of a bramley apple tree is that there is another (different
variety) apple tree in flower nearby at the same time?

My books made apple tree pollination sound very complex
with lists of what will pollinate what and whether is is in
group one, two or three, but a web site I've just visited
implied that it simply comes down to having apple trees
that flower at the same time - is this the case?

I thought you needed two pollinators for Bramley.



I've just Googled a bit more and it looks like you may be
right. It seems Bramley apples are a bit different to other
apple varieties in being something called "Triploid" which
means it needs two different pollinators to set the
flowers. Strange.
--
David in Normandy.
To e-mail you must include the password FROG on the
subject line, or it will be automatically deleted
by a filter and not reach my inbox.

David in Normandy writes
Bob Hobden says...

"David in Normandy" wrote
Would I be correct in saying the key thing for pollination
of a bramley apple tree is that there is another (different
variety) apple tree in flower nearby at the same time?

My books made apple tree pollination sound very complex
with lists of what will pollinate what and whether is is in
group one, two or three, but a web site I've just visited
implied that it simply comes down to having apple trees
that flower at the same time - is this the case?

I thought you needed two pollinators for Bramley.



I've just Googled a bit more and it looks like you may be
right. It seems Bramley apples are a bit different to other
apple varieties in being something called "Triploid" which
means it needs two different pollinators to set the
flowers. Strange.

I don't think it needs two pollinators, it's just that it won't
pollinate the pollinator so you need a second variety to pollinate the
pollinator
--
Kay

Not quite. Bramleys are a bit different.

Actually it is all very easy. Most of the time, what you need are two apple trees of different variety in flower at the same time so they pollinate each other. The different pollination groups simply represent flowering time, so two of the same group will do. In fact adjacent group will usually be good enough most years.

But Bramleys are not in that "most of the time" bit. Bramleys need to be cross-pollinated by TWO different apple trees. So you need at least two other different apple trees in flower in the vicinity at the same time to get your Bramley to fruit. This is because they are triploid hybrids (have 3 sets of chromosomes instead of the normal two). Cox is another triploid variety of commercial importance. Also, Bramleys and Cox are no good for pollinating anything else.

But apple trees are commonly grown in many people's gardens. Plenty of people get more fruit than they can deal with off a single apple tree in their garden, even Bramleys, because there are plenty of suitable trees locally. Even crabs will often be OK. But if you are in a remotish location, then you will need several apple trees, and will need to choose the varieties to ensure there is some overlap in their flowering.

Keepers Nursery has an excellent website with information on this kind of thing, and grow a huge number of different apple varieties.

"K" wrote
Bob Hobden writes

"David in Normandy" wrote
Would I be correct in saying the key thing for pollination
of a bramley apple tree is that there is another (different
variety) apple tree in flower nearby at the same time?

My books made apple tree pollination sound very complex
with lists of what will pollinate what and whether is is in
group one, two or three, but a web site I've just visited
implied that it simply comes down to having apple trees
that flower at the same time - is this the case?

I thought you needed two pollinators for Bramley.

No, just the one. But Bramley won't reciprocate so you need the second
tree to pollinate the pollinator.

Indeed that does appear to be the case, being Triploid the Bramley's
Seedling won't pollinate anything so you need two others to provide enough
pollen for all three...
http://www.buckingham-nurseries.co.u...de_Apples.html

This is a good easily understood guide too...
http://www.hartmannursery.com/apple_pollination.htm

Personally I like "Arthur Turner", another large cooking apple but with the
most beautiful flowers that received an AGM, so you get the best of both
worlds. Apples are good too, especially baked.
--
Regards
Bob Hobden

echinosum writes
But Bramleys are not in that "most of the time" bit. Bramleys need
to
be cross-pollinated by TWO different apple trees. So you need at
least
two other different apple trees in flower in the vicinity at the
same
time to get your Bramley to fruit.

Are you absolutely sure of this? I've just gone back to 3 of my
references and they all agree that the second tree is to pollinate the
pollinator, that the Bramley only needs one to pollinate it. But my
knowledge of genetics is too rusty to argue one way or the other.
--
Kay

K wrote:
echinosum writes
But Bramleys are not in that "most of the time" bit. Bramleys need to
be cross-pollinated by TWO different apple trees. So you need at
least
two other different apple trees in flower in the vicinity at the
same
time to get your Bramley to fruit.

Are you absolutely sure of this? I've just gone back to 3 of my
references and they all agree that the second tree is to pollinate the
pollinator, that the Bramley only needs one to pollinate it. But my
knowledge of genetics is too rusty to argue one way or the other.
I purchased a number of apple trees, (not Bramley) taking advice from
the supplier and making sure that I had at least pairs of groups. Now
nature, being as she is, does not always follow the pattern, so there
are times when the trees in the same group do not flower together.
Another point is that unless you are a long way from other gardens there
will almost certainly be other trees near by. Added to that "crab"
apples, which are grown for decoration, are good for cross pollination.

No, I'm not absolutely sure. I have only self-education in biology/horticulture. The wikipedia article on polyploidy is unhelpful on the matter. But I have always wondered what kind of weird sex is going on if three partners have to come together, I've never heard of that happening in general. So I am very attracted by the theory that the third is only to pollinate the second, which is repeated at many sources.

But the most reputable horticultural sources I can find seem (emphasis on seem) to say that two varieties are desirable (desirable, perhaps not entirely necessary) just to pollinate the triploid:

Brogdale http://www.brogdale.org/choosepollination.html says "To produce fruit the triploid will need two pollinators" (that seems definitive, no fruit on the triploid without two pollinators, and Brogdale is our national apple archive)

RHS http://www.rhs.org.uk/advice/profile...tionGroups.pdf
says "Some cultivars are triploid – they have sterile pollen and need two other
cultivars for good pollination" (actually you could read that both ways - good pollination of what - but the plain reading is that two are needed for good pollination - note good pollination - of the triploid)

Keepers Nursery http://www.keepers-nursery.co.uk/sea...aspx?id=BRASEE says "Bramley's Seedling is a triploid variety and should be grown with two other pollination partners" (again you could take that both ways as with RHS - Keepers Nursery has the largest number of apple varieties of any commercial nursery)

The BBC say two for the triploid too, but I don't consider them reputable.

Searching the web, I found one lady who posted on a forum with a problem. She had a triploid, and cut down one of the two pollination partners. The next year, she only got "crabs" on her triploid. Perhaps it was a bad year, perhaps the one she left wasn't a good pollinator for it. Who knows. No one answered her post. She didn't update us the following year, at least not on that thread.

This source http://web.ukonline.co.uk/suttonelms/apple27.html points out that an experiment in 1938 by Crane and Lawrence found 5% self-fertilisation on triploids, which is more than on most diploids. Which rather goes against the received wisdom. What is going on? The same source goes for the third to pollinate the pollinator theory.

This source, which seems well-grounded in real life practice in the orchard, goes for the third to pollinate the second theory. http://pollinator.com/effecpol.htm But it makes an interesting point about an individual fruit needing to be well pollinated in order to grow large, in other words apples, unlike people, can be half pregnant. So perhaps that is what the third variety is about, and why the lady above got small fruit on her triploid.

btw, I was wrong in saying that Cox's Orange Pippin is a triploid, it isn't. It was Blenheim Orange that I had in mind.

In message , K
writes
echinosum writes
But Bramleys are not in that "most of the time" bit. Bramleys need to
be cross-pollinated by TWO different apple trees. So you need at
least
two other different apple trees in flower in the vicinity at the
same
time to get your Bramley to fruit.

Are you absolutely sure of this? I've just gone back to 3 of my
references and they all agree that the second tree is to pollinate the
pollinator, that the Bramley only needs one to pollinate it. But my
knowledge of genetics is too rusty to argue one way or the other.

Although plant reproduction can be weird, the idea the Bramley requires
pollination by two different varieties to set fruit doesn't make sense.
(Or at least I can't imagine how it would work.)

Meiosis is often messed up in triploids. This can result in a low
production of pollen, which would explain Bramley not acting as a
pollinator. One is left wondering why Bramley is seed-fertile but
pollen-sterile, but it wouldn't be the first triploid in which meiosis
works out differently in embryo sacs and pollen.

There are seedless apples, which may well not require pollination, but
Bramley doesn't seem to be one of them.
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley
http://www.malvaceae.info http://lavateraguy.blogspot.com

echinosum says...

K;787276 Wrote:
echinosum writes-
But Bramleys are not in that "most of the time" bit. Bramleys need
to-
be cross-pollinated by TWO different apple trees. So you need at -
least-
two other different apple trees in flower in the vicinity at the -
same-
time to get your Bramley to fruit.

Are you absolutely sure of this? I've just gone back to 3 of my
references and they all agree that the second tree is to pollinate the

pollinator, that the Bramley only needs one to pollinate it. But my
knowledge of genetics is too rusty to argue one way or the other.
--
Kay
No, I'm not absolutely sure. I have only self-education in
biology/horticulture. The wikipedia article on polyploidy is unhelpful
on the matter. But I have always wondered what kind of weird sex is
going on if three partners have to come together, I've never heard of
that happening in general. So I am very attracted by the theory that
the third is only to pollinate the second, which is repeated at many
sources.

But the most reputable horticultural sources I can find seem (emphasis
on seem) to say that two varieties are desirable (desirable, perhaps
not entirely necessary) just to pollinate the triploid:

Brogdale http://tinyurl.com/3frvhj says "To produce fruit the triploid
will need two pollinators" (that seems definitive, no fruit on the
triploid without two pollinators, and Brogdale is our national apple
archive)

RHS http://tinyurl.com/4b4lmz
says "Some cultivars are triploid ? they have sterile pollen and need
two other
cultivars for good pollination" (actually you could read that both ways
- good pollination of what - but the plain reading is that two are
needed for good pollination - note good pollination - of the triploid)

Keepers Nursery http://tinyurl.com/3twqk2 says "Bramley's Seedling is a
triploid variety and should be grown with two other pollination
partners" (again you could take that both ways as with RHS - Keepers
Nursery has the largest number of apple varieties of any commercial
nursery)

The BBC say two for the triploid too, but I don't consider them
reputable.

Searching the web, I found one lady who posted on a forum with a
problem. She had a triploid, and cut down one of the two pollination
partners. The next year, she only got "crabs" on her triploid. Perhaps
it was a bad year, perhaps the one she left wasn't a good pollinator
for it. Who knows. No one answered her post. She didn't update us the
following year, at least not on that thread.

This source http://tinyurl.com/4p9gpy points out that an experiment in
1938 by Crane and Lawrence found 5% self-fertilisation on triploids,
which is more than on most diploids. Which rather goes against the
received wisdom. What is going on? The same source goes for the third
to pollinate the pollinator theory.

This source, which seems well-grounded in real life practice in the
orchard, goes for the third to pollinate the second theory.
http://pollinator.com/effecpol.htm But it makes an interesting point
about an individual fruit needing to be well pollinated in order to
grow large, in other words apples, unlike people, can be half pregnant.
So perhaps that is what the third variety is about, and why the lady
above got small fruit on her triploid.

btw, I was wrong in saying that Cox's Orange Pippin is a triploid, it
isn't. It was Blenheim Orange that I had in mind.

Interesting reply. It looks like I will have to wait and
see if my young Bramley apple bears any fruits. It has
flowers now and there is one apple tree nearby also in
flower. The neighbours also have apple trees, so I'm
keeping fingers crossed.
--
David in Normandy.
To e-mail you must include the password FROG on the
subject line, or it will be automatically deleted
by a filter and not reach my inbox.

On 30/4/08 08:59, in article ,
"David in Normandy" wrote:

snip

It looks like I will have to wait and
see if my young Bramley apple bears any fruits. It has
flowers now and there is one apple tree nearby also in
flower. The neighbours also have apple trees, so I'm
keeping fingers crossed.

Normandy being cider and Calvados country, I imagine there must still be
plenty of orchards, old or new or dilapidated around? Are there many bee
keepers?
--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'