This is of interest to all those who buy seeds, both veg. and flowers:
http://www.which.co.uk/files/applica...445-122808.pdf

Apparently, several suppliers have been found to have dead seeds in the
packets and some of them in very high numbers, too.

--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove weeds from address)
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'

"Sacha" wrote in message
. uk...
This is of interest to all those who buy seeds, both veg. and flowers:
http://www.which.co.uk/files/applica...445-122808.pdf

Apparently, several suppliers have been found to have dead seeds in the
packets and some of them in very high numbers, too.

--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove weeds from address)
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'


So I have a ready made excuse for the future lol!



Rowdens Reservoir Allotments
Best Allotment Site in Plymouth
Plymouth In Bloom Gold Award 2007
www.rraa.moonfruit.com

On 28 Sep, 12:27, Martin wrote:
On Fri, 28 Sep 2007 09:08:59 +0100, Sacha
wrote:

This is of interest to all those who buy seeds, both veg. and flowers:
http://www.which.co.uk/files/applica...iers-445-12280...

Apparently, several suppliers have been found to have dead seeds in the
packets and some of them in very high numbers, too.

There's no mention of the dates stamped on the packets they tested or whether
the seeds had all been stored in the same conditions prior to sale. Nor is there
any mention of how many samples of packets they tested. Did they buy the seeds
off the shelf or by mail order? They should have tested both batches of mail
order and off the shelf.

With modern packaging, that's not particularly important - so long as
they've not been stored under really extreme conditions.
What they really need to do now is to take batches of known good seeds
in a range of species and varieties and try them out on a big sample
of gardeners because IME there's a great many folk out there
-'professionals' and amateurs who have no idea about caring for
germinating seeds and the aftercare of the seedlings.
In any case there's no point in fretting about a few percentage points
in germination figures because most packets have far more seeds than
most of us will need.
What is important though - and this wasn't tested is the final outcome
of the crop. That depends on the work of both the gardener in the
growing and crucially on the seedsman and his contractors - in the
process of selection/reselection and roguing of the seed crops. The
outcome can be vary widely between seeds supposedly of a particular
variety from a number of different sources.
So it's not at all as simple as the Which report seems to suggest.

On Sep 28, 12:27 pm, Martin wrote:
On Fri, 28 Sep 2007 09:08:59 +0100, Sacha
wrote:

This is of interest to all those who buy seeds, both veg. and flowers:
http://www.which.co.uk/files/applica...iers-445-12280...

Apparently, several suppliers have been found to have dead seeds in the
packets and some of them in very high numbers, too.

There's no mention of the dates stamped on the packets they tested or whether
the seeds had all been stored in the same conditions prior to sale. Nor is there
any mention of how many samples of packets they tested. Did they buy the seeds
off the shelf or by mail order? They should have tested both batches of mail
order and off the shelf.

After buying a camera that Which? recommended as the best, the results indicated
to me that the testers were colour blind and probably dead from the neck up.
Which?'s own marketing techniques are hypocritical.

--

Martin

These surveys are indeed highly variable; they can be useful when the
basis of comparison is very clear and you can then just take or leave
the results. I remember buying a cast iron frying pan, which I still
have after 10 years, and being very happy with it. It weighed a ton
and you could clear it with an angle grinder if you felt like it. I
then saw a frying pan comparison survey in a kitchen section of a
weekend supplement and they compared 10 frying pans. The one I had
bought was the only one that was not a non-stick expensive one. It
was singled out for particular mention as being especially appalling
and even dangerous. This was like comparing a military jeep to a set
of family saloon cars and complaining that the jeep did not have a
baby seat.
I have bought seeds that were pretty crappy but this was usually from
the petrol station after 4 pints of Old Speckled Partridge at the Fox
and Green Trumpet on a friday night. Seeds from the usual big
companies usually have clear dates on them and are usually pretty good
(usually). The most variable lot I have found are Chiltern, where I
often got what seemed to be the "wrong" seeds.

Des

On 28/9/07 12:27, in article ,
"Martin" wrote:

On Fri, 28 Sep 2007 09:08:59 +0100, Sacha
wrote:

This is of interest to all those who buy seeds, both veg. and flowers:
http://www.which.co.uk/files/applica...445-122808.pdf

Apparently, several suppliers have been found to have dead seeds in the
packets and some of them in very high numbers, too.

There's no mention of the dates stamped on the packets they tested or whether
the seeds had all been stored in the same conditions prior to sale. Nor is
there
any mention of how many samples of packets they tested. Did they buy the seeds
off the shelf or by mail order? They should have tested both batches of mail
order and off the shelf.

I listened to something on the radio about this. The Which spokeswoman said
they had bought the seeds in exactly the way any consumer would have done.
Monty Don was interviewed and he confirmed that the GW team had noticed poor
germination results with many different types of seeds but they hadn't noted
which particular ones they were or from which suppliers. As he said, most
gardeners, especially amateurs, would think the fault was theirs, so in one
way this report is reassuring for them.

After buying a camera that Which? recommended as the best, the results
indicated
to me that the testers were colour blind and probably dead from the neck up.
Which?'s own marketing techniques are hypocritical.

We don't take the magazines, so I can't comment on that.
--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove weeds from address)
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'

On 28/9/07 13:06, in article ,
"Robert (Plymouth)" remove my other
hobby to reply wrote:


"Sacha" wrote in message
. uk...
This is of interest to all those who buy seeds, both veg. and flowers:
http://www.which.co.uk/files/applica...445-122808.pdf

Apparently, several suppliers have been found to have dead seeds in the
packets and some of them in very high numbers, too.

--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove weeds from address)
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'


So I have a ready made excuse for the future lol!



Rowdens Reservoir Allotments
Best Allotment Site in Plymouth
Plymouth In Bloom Gold Award 2007
www.rraa.moonfruit.com


Firstly - congratulations! And secondly, this Which business reminds me
that we seem to have had quite a few people complaining about lack of
germination IIRC.

--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove weeds from address)
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'

In reply to Des Higgins ) who wrote this in
, I, Marvo, say :

[snip]

These surveys are indeed highly variable; they can be useful when the
basis of comparison is very clear and you can then just take or leave
the results. I remember buying a cast iron frying pan, which I still
have after 10 years, and being very happy with it. It weighed a ton
and you could clear it with an angle grinder if you felt like it. I
then saw a frying pan comparison survey in a kitchen section of a
weekend supplement and they compared 10 frying pans. The one I had
bought was the only one that was not a non-stick expensive one. It
was singled out for particular mention as being especially appalling
and even dangerous. This was like comparing a military jeep to a set
of family saloon cars and complaining that the jeep did not have a
baby seat.
I have bought seeds that were pretty crappy but this was usually from
the petrol station after 4 pints of Old Speckled Partridge at the Fox
and Green Trumpet on a friday night. Seeds from the usual big
companies usually have clear dates on them and are usually pretty good
(usually). The most variable lot I have found are Chiltern, where I
often got what seemed to be the "wrong" seeds.

Excellent comment Des! I think Old Speckled Partridge at the Fox and Green
Trumpet might have been made up though :-)

The thing I can never understand is when they say there are 12 seeds, and
you count them, and there are 12 seeds, and you plant one seed in each of 12
peat pots, and then grow them on in bigger pots, you get 14 plants.

I seldom get less than they say. I usually buy a reputable (?) make, like
Suttons, and usually completely ignore the instructions, lose the packets,
put them somewhere entirely unsuitable and get a bumper crop.

I'm still cropping the tomatoes. I can't see an end to it.

I love gardening. It just breaks all the rules.

On Sep 28, 2:39 pm, "Uncle Marvo"
wrote:
In reply to Des Higgins ) who wrote this in
om, I, Marvo, say :

[snip]



These surveys are indeed highly variable; they can be useful when the
basis of comparison is very clear and you can then just take or leave
the results. I remember buying a cast iron frying pan, which I still
have after 10 years, and being very happy with it. It weighed a ton
and you could clear it with an angle grinder if you felt like it. I
then saw a frying pan comparison survey in a kitchen section of a
weekend supplement and they compared 10 frying pans. The one I had
bought was the only one that was not a non-stick expensive one. It
was singled out for particular mention as being especially appalling
and even dangerous. This was like comparing a military jeep to a set
of family saloon cars and complaining that the jeep did not have a
baby seat.
I have bought seeds that were pretty crappy but this was usually from
the petrol station after 4 pints of Old Speckled Partridge at the Fox
and Green Trumpet on a friday night. Seeds from the usual big
companies usually have clear dates on them and are usually pretty good
(usually). The most variable lot I have found are Chiltern, where I
often got what seemed to be the "wrong" seeds.

Excellent comment Des! I think Old Speckled Partridge at the Fox and Green
Trumpet might have been made up though :-)


Ok ok; you have me there; to be honest, it could have been the Goat
and Fascist or possible even the Faggot and Queen's Head


The thing I can never understand is when they say there are 12 seeds, and
you count them, and there are 12 seeds, and you plant one seed in each of 12
peat pots, and then grow them on in bigger pots, you get 14 plants.

I seldom get less than they say. I usually buy a reputable (?) make, like
Suttons, and usually completely ignore the instructions, lose the packets,
put them somewhere entirely unsuitable and get a bumper crop.

Last time I bought a packet of Sungold tomatoes; it said 12 seeds and
there were 15 and I planted all 15 and got 15 plants. They are fancy
(F1) seeds so expensive to produce; usually you get hundreds or
thousands of seeds though and way more than you need.


I'm still cropping the tomatoes. I can't see an end to it.

I love gardening. It just breaks all the rules.

As a rule.

In reply to Des Higgins ) who wrote this in
, I, Marvo, say :

Ok ok; you have me there; to be honest, it could have been the Goat
and Fascist or possible even the Faggot and Queen's Head

You're the only other chap I know who's been to the Goat and Fascist.

The other one was Hercule Poirot.

On 28/9/07 14:53, in article
, "Des Higgins"
wrote:

snip

Last time I bought a packet of Sungold tomatoes; it said 12 seeds and
there were 15 and I planted all 15 and got 15 plants. They are fancy
(F1) seeds so expensive to produce; usually you get hundreds or
thousands of seeds though and way more than you need.

The other end of that extreme in the Which tests was one packet of
Delphiniums of which 94% were dead. ;-( I don't feel that the suggestion
that it doesn't matter if some fail because there are too many in a packet,
is a fair one. People *pay* for a full packet of what is supposed to be
viable seed, not a packet of 50 seeds in which 6 germinate. Some failure
rate might be accepted but I think that is certainly unacceptably high. And
of course, as we see here, people often either share seed packets with
others or hope to grow seeds for charity sales etc. For those who haven't
read the article's link that I posted, the tests on the seed viability are
not the whole of the report. It also comments on the range offered and the
info in the catalogues, for example and it coves 15 seedsmen.
This morning's radio feature remarked that the best way to get good,
reliable seed is to collect your own but it did not go into the F1 issue
with that.

--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove weeds from address)
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'

"Rod" wrote in message
ups.com...

So it's not at all as simple as the Which report seems to suggest.

It rarely is.

I gave up on Which? decades ago.

Mary

On Sep 28, 3:10 pm, Sacha wrote:
On 28/9/07 14:53, in article
. com, "Des Higgins"

wrote:

snip



Last time I bought a packet of Sungold tomatoes; it said 12 seeds and
there were 15 and I planted all 15 and got 15 plants. They are fancy
(F1) seeds so expensive to produce; usually you get hundreds or
thousands of seeds though and way more than you need.

The other end of that extreme in the Which tests was one packet of
Delphiniums of which 94% were dead. ;-( I don't feel that the suggestion
that it doesn't matter if some fail because there are too many in a packet,
is a fair one. People *pay* for a full packet of what is supposed to be
viable seed, not a packet of 50 seeds in which 6 germinate. Some failure
rate might be accepted but I think that is certainly unacceptably high. And
of course, as we see here, people often either share seed packets with
others or hope to grow seeds for charity sales etc. For those who haven't
read the article's link that I posted, the tests on the seed viability are
not the whole of the report. It also comments on the range offered and the
info in the catalogues, for example and it coves 15 seedsmen.
This morning's radio feature remarked that the best way to get good,
reliable seed is to collect your own but it did not go into the F1 issue
with that.


that is all fair enough; as I said, I have bought crap seeds but the
big suppliers are usually fine.


--
Sachahttp://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove weeds from address)
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'

I read a report of this in a newspaper which said they had tested "400 seeds" from each supplier. I think this means they tested about 8 packets of seeds from each supplier. I think that is far too small a sample in order to decide which are the rogues and which are the reliable suppliers.

The fact that who were the rogues in relation to "flower seeds" had very little correlation with who were the rogues in relation to "vegetable seeds" suggests to me that the results had a substantial random factor arising from it being a poorly designed experiment of little statistical significance.

On Sep 28, 3:03 pm, "Uncle Marvo"
wrote:
In reply to Des Higgins ) who wrote this in
. com, I, Marvo, say :

Ok ok; you have me there; to be honest, it could have been the Goat
and Fascist or possible even the Faggot and Queen's Head

You're the only other chap I know who's been to the Goat and Fascist.

The other one was Hercule Poirot.

He was an awful man with drink taken. He would arrive in and sit at
the end of the bar and leer at Maureen in his durty foreign way that
he had and ask for a creme de menthe and a half of Old Speckled
Partridge and then wink at Maureen and ask for a "queeeek wan my
leetle Brassica" and she would thump the drinks down on the counter
and say "you can take that durty foreign talk home with you if you do
not behave like everyone else" and he would drink about 15 of them all
night and eventually smell like toothpaste and stale beer and start
singing these Belgian drinking songs with lewd actions and then fall
asleep and stagger out the door at closing time. Or I think it was
him; either that or Ernest Hemmingway.

Des

"Sacha" wrote in message
. uk...
On 28/9/07 13:06, in article ,
"Robert (Plymouth)" remove my other
hobby to reply wrote:


"Sacha" wrote in message
. uk...
This is of interest to all those who buy seeds, both veg. and flowers:
http://www.which.co.uk/files/applica...445-122808.pdf

Apparently, several suppliers have been found to have dead seeds in the
packets and some of them in very high numbers, too.

--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove weeds from address)
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'


So I have a ready made excuse for the future lol!



Rowdens Reservoir Allotments
Best Allotment Site in Plymouth
Plymouth In Bloom Gold Award 2007
www.rraa.moonfruit.com


Firstly - congratulations! And secondly, this Which business reminds me
that we seem to have had quite a few people complaining about lack of
germination IIRC.

We get our association seeds from Kings and they always seem ok except for
parsnips this year.... but then that's what parsnip seed are like sometimes