Every year we get some people here who fall victim to the false
stories that are being put around about ragwort. It has just happened
again. I am copying in the text of an old posting to explain it.

DONT PULL IT UP WHERE EVER YOU SEE IT. That is likely to be AGAINST
THE LAW!

You can't usually get an enforcement order on road verges because they
are not usually agricultural land . There is no need to control it
there because it isn't usually a risk at all..

We are being told now it is dangerous to humans. I have looked at the
science behind the claims. This is just a scare story. Yes it is
poisonous. No it is not dangerous.

For for further information see the following websites.

http://www.ragwortfacts.com
and

a Dutch site

http://www.ragwort.jakobskruiskruid.com/

The hysteria has now spread to Holland as well.

Here is the old posting
--------------------------------------------


This is an important point and much environmental damage can be done
and public money wasted as well us unnecessay worry caused.

Yes. As a scientist who has extensively studied the subject,I believe
that "hysteria" is the correct word to use. It is of course
understandable that people should have a concern for their precious
animals but there is little rational need for extreme concern and it
is hard to avoid the conclusion that people are being manipulated.
Certainly there will have been no harm done to certain organisations'
public profile. On the balance of the scientific eveidence there is
little cause for people to remove it from their lawns. Indeed there is
a good basis for leaving it alone.

There are certain researched facts that well support the contention
that this is hysteria. First of all there is the level of toxicity of
the plant. This is actually quite low. The toxic dose for a large
animal is in the order of several stone. This has been determined by
experimentation and one horse is known to have eaten over 20% of its
body weight of the plant and survived!. Of course horses eat a lot but
this puts the level of toxicity into context. This is not cyanide we
are taking about but a mildly toxic plant.

Now to the hysteria. The following is just one example of many. One
equine magazine on the net published a story that horses could be
poisoned by "seeds and Spores" (sic) blowing into pasture that they
would breathe in. On the basis of the level of toxicity this is
absolute nonsense. (Even if you ignore the inaccurate botany.)
Yet the story has spread. It has appeared in at least two _Government_
press releases and as even been copied by the BBC. It is hardly
suprising therefore that many people have a false picture of the real
story about his plant.

We are told that thousands of animals are poisoned by it every year.
However, what do the scientific data say? Well, there is apparently
only one set of official statistics available. These official
Government statistics were published in the official State Veterinary
Journal.
Here they a

The number of reported incidents of ragwort (Senecio jacobaea)
poisoning in cattle in England, Wales and Scotland were 26 (1985), 10
(1986), 16 (1987), 13 (1988), 7 (1989), 10 (1990).

Hardly the picture we have been led to believe and incidentally this
is supported by scientific papers from the continent which say
poisoning is rare.

I could go on with the false stories about it being a risk to people
etc. etc.

However, let's just remember that Ragwort has some positive qualities
too. For those who missed what I said in the long thread.
This is one of the things that one of our official government wildlife
bodies says.

"As a native plant ragwort has been studied for many years by
naturalists. Even way back in 1957 a report concluded that it is eaten
by, or is host to, over 81 species of insects including five "red data
book" and eight "nationally scarce" species. Living on those 81
species there have been a further 25 parasitic insect species
identified. In addition there have been 177 species of insects
observed using ragwort as a nectar source. It has also been observed
as host to the Common Broomrape and 14 species of fungi. "

Neil Jones

http://www/butterflyguy.com/

wrote in message
ups.com...

snip text

HURRAH!

The Voice of Reason.

Mary

In message . com,
" writes
Every year we get some people here who fall victim to the false
stories that are being put around about ragwort. It has just happened
again. I am copying in the text of an old posting to explain it.

DONT PULL IT UP WHERE EVER YOU SEE IT. That is likely to be AGAINST
THE LAW!

You can't usually get an enforcement order on road verges because they
are not usually agricultural land . There is no need to control it
there because it isn't usually a risk at all..

We are being told now it is dangerous to humans. I have looked at the
science behind the claims. This is just a scare story. Yes it is
poisonous. No it is not dangerous.

For for further information see the following websites.

http://www.ragwortfacts.com
and


I agree with some of what you say. I have a some common ragwort plants
in my wildlife garden area as it is a splendid food source for a very
large variety of invertebrates.

Clearly the pulling of ragwort on land not under an individuals control
is not to be encouraged but where the land is under their control there
are no restrictions. It is most definitely not a protected plant under
schedule 8 of the Wildlife & Countryside Act

A few years ago the British Horse Society sponsored a Bill primarily
aimed at controlling the spread of ragwort. Its eventual outcome was an
amendment to the 1959 Weeds Act which allowed for a 'Code of practice on
how to prevent the spread of ragwort' however even the code of practice
recognises the value of ragwort (amongst the doom and gloom) and that in
many situations it does not pose a threat to horses and livestock.

The BHS would certainly disagree with you as far as danger to horses is
concerned. You may wish to have a look at this which seems to set out
their feelings (including some somewhat OTT quotes from a Professor
Knottenbelt ! ) http://tinyurl.com/2fgm78

A really good, balanced source of information on the pros and cons of
ragwort is the Natural England/English Nature information note,
primarily aimed at farmers and land managers but very useful to anyone
interested.
http://tinyurl.com/26kwaw

--
Robert

On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 20:25:17 +0100, Robert
wrote:

snip[

A really good, balanced source of information on the pros and cons of
ragwort is the Natural England/English Nature information note,
primarily aimed at farmers and land managers but very useful to anyone
interested.
http://tinyurl.com/26kwaw

Which contains the following:

Many grazing animals are at risk from the toxic effects of consuming
ragwort by grazing the plant and consuming it in forage. Horses are
especially susceptible. Cattle, sheep, goats and pigs, especially of
adapted breeds, will avoid eating ragwort when it is growing but are
more at risk when plants are wilted or dying. Signs of ragwort
poisoning may be slow to develop and may not become apparent for
several days, weeks or months. Signs may appear after consumption of
the plant has ceased. Poisoning can develop quickly and animals can
die within a few days of showing clinical symptoms. Liver damage is
irreversible and there is no effective treatment

On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 08:07:46 -0700, "
wrote:

Every year we get some people here who fall victim to the false
stories that are being put around about ragwort. It has just happened
again. I am copying in the text of an old posting to explain it.

DONT PULL IT UP WHERE EVER YOU SEE IT. That is likely to be AGAINST
THE LAW!

You can't usually get an enforcement order on road verges because they
are not usually agricultural land . There is no need to control it
there because it isn't usually a risk at all..


I saw what I assume were local authority or Highways Agency staff
spraying big clumps of it today in two different locations - so it
looks like the problem is being addressed - not before time.

In article ,
judith writes:
|
| A really good, balanced source of information on the pros and cons of
| ragwort is the Natural England/English Nature information note,
| primarily aimed at farmers and land managers but very useful to anyone
| interested.
| http://tinyurl.com/26kwaw

Not really. It's better, but still biassed.

| Which contains the following:
|
| Many grazing animals are at risk from the toxic effects of consuming
| ragwort by grazing the plant and consuming it in forage. Horses are
| especially susceptible. Cattle, sheep, goats and pigs, especially of
| adapted breeds, will avoid eating ragwort when it is growing but are
| more at risk when plants are wilted or dying. Signs of ragwort
| poisoning may be slow to develop and may not become apparent for
| several days, weeks or months. Signs may appear after consumption of
| the plant has ceased. Poisoning can develop quickly and animals can
| die within a few days of showing clinical symptoms. Liver damage is
| irreversible and there is no effective treatment

It fails to point out that is a significant issue only for ragwort
growing in hay fields, when the hay is cut, ragwort and all; or that
exactly the same is true of MANY other common grassland and hedgerow
plants. It ALSO fails to point out that, as with thistles and many
such obtrusive and persistent weeds of grassland, it is the increased
use of land for grazing horses alone that is a major cause of the
problem.

I remember precisely the same being said about yew 40 years ago as is
said about ragwort today - and, then as now, it was the horsey people
who were being most irrational and hysterical.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

"Billy" wrote in message
...
Do you mean Stinking Billy?

It has all sorts of common and local names, I suspect since one I know is
Stinking Willy I expect yours is the same. It's also known as Stinkweed - it
doesn't really smell pleasant so that part's true :-)

It has very pretty, small, flowers with almost metallic yellow petals. If a
volunteer grows in my garden I leave it until it finishes flowering.

When I had honeybees I was afraid that its nectar might taint the honey,
because that's what I'd been taught. After harvesting honey from hives with
masses of ragwort in the next field I realised that it was yet another
beekeeping myth. As is the one about privet flowers tainting honey.

Mary

On 10 Aug, 20:25, Robert wrote:
In message . com,
" writes



Every year we get some people here who fall victim to the false
stories that are being put around about ragwort. It has just happened
again. I am copying in the text of an old posting to explain it.

DONT PULL IT UP WHERE EVER YOU SEE IT. That is likely to be AGAINST
THE LAW!

You can't usually get an enforcement order on road verges because they
are not usually agricultural land . There is no need to control it
there because it isn't usually a risk at all..

We are being told now it is dangerous to humans. I have looked at the
science behind the claims. This is just a scare story. Yes it is
poisonous. No it is not dangerous.

For for further information see the following websites.

http://www.ragwortfacts.com
and

I agree with some of what you say. I have a some common ragwort plants
in my wildlife garden area as it is a splendid food source for a very
large variety of invertebrates.

Clearly the pulling of ragwort on land not under an individuals control
is not to be encouraged but where the land is under their control there
are no restrictions. It is most definitely not a protected plant under
schedule 8 of the Wildlife & Countryside Act

It is not just that it should not be encouraged on land not under and
individual's control .It is DEFINATELY ILLEGAL under thhe 1981
Wildlife and Countryside Act. This is what the Act says

"(1) Subject to the provisions of this part if any person

(a) intentionally picks, uproots or destroys any wild plant include in
schedule 8 ;or

(b)Not being an authorised person intentionally, uproots any wild
plant not included in that schedule. "

An athouraise person is the owner or occupuier or someone authorised
by them.


A few years ago the British Horse Society sponsored a Bill primarily
aimed at controlling the spread of ragwort. Its eventual outcome was an
amendment to the 1959 Weeds Act which allowed for a 'Code of practice on
how to prevent the spread of ragwort' however even the code of practice
recognises the value of ragwort (amongst the doom and gloom) and that in
many situations it does not pose a threat to horses and livestock.

The BHS would certainly disagree with you as far as danger to horses is
concerned. You may wish to have a look at this which seems to set out
their feelings (including some somewhat OTT quotes from a Professor
Knottenbelt ! )http://tinyurl.com/2fgm78

This is what the author of the Dutch website says about Knottenbelt's
work
....................................
"Report on the internet by Dr. Knottenbelt (Liverpool University).
This veterinarian is quoted on the internet quite a lot, because he
stated, during a debate in the House of Commons, that the toxic
substance in ragwort can almost certainly be absorbed through the
skin(6). In response to this we contacted Dr. Knottenbelt. Through an
email he informed us that there is no scientific proof for his
statements. He writes that he himself has suffered liver damage after
manually removing ragwort plants. The results of this 'experiment'
have not been published and, according to us, are not obtained through
a good scientific trial.

Through our research about the sources of the reports on the danger of
touching ragwort, we conclude that there is no substantial evidence
that there is a health risk for people. The amount of pyrrolizidine
alkaloids that might be absorbed through the skin is very low and
there is no proof that these alkaloids are being changed into a toxic
form."
..............................................
I am puzzlred by the reports on that website that he has deliberately
poisoned himself with Ragwort. . "I have tested it on myself," he
said. "My liver is in a bad state."

You cannot do proper proven scientific work on a single individual.
You need a good sized group, a cohort of people, to test something
like this to get a valid result. What was he trying to acheive? Why
harm himself. We all know the plant is
poisonous. It is just not dangerous.


A really good, balanced source of information on the pros and cons of
ragwort is the Natural England/English Nature information note,
primarily aimed at farmers and land managers but very useful to anyone
interested.http://tinyurl.com/26kwaw

As has been pointed out it has biases by omission.
--
Robert


Neil Jones

http://www.butterflyguy.com/

In article om,
" writes:
| On 10 Aug, 20:25, Robert wrote:
|
| The BHS would certainly disagree with you as far as danger to horses is
| concerned. You may wish to have a look at this which seems to set out
| their feelings (including some somewhat OTT quotes from a Professor
| Knottenbelt ! )http://tinyurl.com/2fgm78

If those quotes are correct, he is a professorial loon on a par with
Captain Cyborg (try a Web search, and prepare to boggle).

| This veterinarian is quoted on the internet quite a lot, because he
| stated, during a debate in the House of Commons, that the toxic
| substance in ragwort can almost certainly be absorbed through the
| skin(6). ...

He is almost certainly correct, but the fact is almost irrelevant.
The figures in the papers quoted by http://www.ragwortfacts.com/
indicate that it is not a real issue, even to complete loons.

| I am puzzlred by the reports on that website that he has deliberately
| poisoned himself with Ragwort. . "I have tested it on myself," he
| said. "My liver is in a bad state."

I have tested putting the juice of many plants on my skin. My liver
is in a bad state. These facts are not related. The normal cause of
both talking complete nonsense and of having a liver in a bad state
in the UK is the same. That fact is also probably not not related :-)

| You cannot do proper proven scientific work on a single individual.

Yes, you can. And I speak as a statistician. But you have to be VERY
careful about what conclusions you draw, and the quotes imply he has
not been.

We all know the plant is poisonous. It is just not dangerous.

That is what all the evidence shows, I agree. The same is true of
hundreds of other wild and garden plants.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

In message , Nick Maclaren
writes

In article ,
judith writes:
|
| A really good, balanced source of information on the pros and cons of
| ragwort is the Natural England/English Nature information note,
| primarily aimed at farmers and land managers but very useful to anyone
| interested.
| http://tinyurl.com/26kwaw

Not really. It's better, but still biassed.

Only if it does not support your particular viewpoint



| Which contains the following:
|
| Many grazing animals are at risk from the toxic effects of consuming
| ragwort by grazing the plant and consuming it in forage. Horses are
| especially susceptible. Cattle, sheep, goats and pigs, especially of
| adapted breeds, will avoid eating ragwort when it is growing but are
| more at risk when plants are wilted or dying. Signs of ragwort
| poisoning may be slow to develop and may not become apparent for
| several days, weeks or months. Signs may appear after consumption of
| the plant has ceased. Poisoning can develop quickly and animals can
| die within a few days of showing clinical symptoms. Liver damage is
| irreversible and there is no effective treatment

It fails to point out that is a significant issue only for ragwort
growing in hay fields, when the hay is cut, ragwort and all; or that
exactly the same is true of MANY other common grassland and hedgerow
plants.

I think that you will find that it does point out that: "Sheep (and
goats) may quite naturally eat some ragwort rosettes and flowers during
normal grazing activities especially where hardy/native breeds are used,
but for animal welfare reasons it is important to ensure there is a
choice of alternative herbage for them to select. This is normally the
case on semi-natural grassland habitats. Cattle and ponies
preferentially avoid common ragwort unless it has been cut and left in a
wilted condition."


It ALSO fails to point out that, as with thistles and many
such obtrusive and persistent weeds of grassland, it is the increased
use of land for grazing horses alone that is a major cause of the
problem.

It indicates that: "Common ragwort’s occurrence can be prolonged and
its density dramatically increased by over-grazing or other localised
disturbance impacts."

I agree that grazing horses undoubtedly contribute to the problem, along
with other livestock and rabbits and pasture management that is not up
to scratch - horses are far from being the major cause.

--
Robert

Hi..

It fails to point out that is a significant issue only for
ragwort growing in hay fields, when the hay is cut,
ragwort and all;

Jein..! ;-) "Jein" is German and has - context based - two
different meanings ("yes and no" | "neither yes nor no").

Well it is said sheeps, goats, cows and horses with outdoors
experience might even sort ragwort out if they would be fed
with handcut and bundled hay but unfortunately compressed
hay seem to be very popular..

It ALSO fails to point out that, as with thistles
and many such obtrusive and persistent weeds of grassland,
it is the increased use of land for grazing horses alone
that is a major cause of the problem.

Hmm.., at the moment I'm not able to detect any correlation
or cause and effect.. Thanks..

I remember precisely the same being said about yew 40
years ago as is said about ragwort today - and, then as
now, it was the horsey people who were being most
irrational and hysterical.

And this is why we're human beeings but no cyborgs..! :-)
--
cu
Marco

On 11 Aug 2007 09:03:36 GMT, (Nick Maclaren) wrote:


In article ,
judith writes:
|
| A really good, balanced source of information on the pros and cons of
| ragwort is the Natural England/English Nature information note,
| primarily aimed at farmers and land managers but very useful to anyone
| interested.
| http://tinyurl.com/26kwaw

Not really. It's better, but still biassed.

| Which contains the following:
|
| Many grazing animals are at risk from the toxic effects of consuming
| ragwort by grazing the plant and consuming it in forage. Horses are
| especially susceptible. Cattle, sheep, goats and pigs, especially of
| adapted breeds, will avoid eating ragwort when it is growing but are
| more at risk when plants are wilted or dying. Signs of ragwort
| poisoning may be slow to develop and may not become apparent for
| several days, weeks or months. Signs may appear after consumption of
| the plant has ceased. Poisoning can develop quickly and animals can
| die within a few days of showing clinical symptoms. Liver damage is
| irreversible and there is no effective treatment

It fails to point out that is a significant issue only for ragwort
growing in hay fields, when the hay is cut, ragwort and all; or that
exactly the same is true of MANY other common grassland and hedgerow
plants.

I am sure you are right - BUT the amount that there is currently
growing uncontrolled on verges and other than in hayfields will
significantly contribute to the amount which will be growing in hay
fields in the near future.

In article ,
Marco Schwarz writes:
|
| It fails to point out that is a significant issue only for
| ragwort growing in hay fields, when the hay is cut,
| ragwort and all;
|
| Jein..! ;-) "Jein" is German and has - context based - two
| different meanings ("yes and no" | "neither yes nor no").
|
| Well it is said sheeps, goats, cows and horses with outdoors
| experience might even sort ragwort out if they would be fed
| with handcut and bundled hay but unfortunately compressed
| hay seem to be very popular..

Isn't that a "ja", or even a "jahwohl"? How DO they produce hay
in Germany other than by growing it in hayfields and cutting it?

| It ALSO fails to point out that, as with thistles
| and many such obtrusive and persistent weeds of grassland,
| it is the increased use of land for grazing horses alone
| that is a major cause of the problem.
|
| Hmm.., at the moment I'm not able to detect any correlation
| or cause and effect.. Thanks..

It's a well-known fact, to farmers, and has been for centuries.
Because of the way that horses (and sheep) eat, they will eat round
even quite small distasteful plants, thus allowing them to grow to
maturity. Cattle, on the other hand, eat differently and will crop
the seedlings of such plants, so have a tendency to eliminate the
weeds.

Once they are established, you need to mow them before cattle will
eat them again.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

In article ,
judith writes:
|
| It fails to point out that is a significant issue only for ragwort
| growing in hay fields, when the hay is cut, ragwort and all; or that
| exactly the same is true of MANY other common grassland and hedgerow
| plants.
|
| I am sure you are right - BUT the amount that there is currently
| growing uncontrolled on verges and other than in hayfields will
| significantly contribute to the amount which will be growing in hay
| fields in the near future.

Not really. The ragwort you notice is not typically a first-year
plant, and properly managed hayfields do not generally develop a
lot of ragwort, thistles, nettles etc., even when it is all around
them.

If there is a problem with contaminated hay, then for heaven's sake
address that - though God alone knows we don't need more bureaucratic
rules. There is no solution less likely to solve a problem than one
that addresses something that is not a cause.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Hi..

Isn't that a "ja", or even a "jahwohl"?

*Sigh* when I read your response I focussed the "increased
use" thing..

Would you eventually accept an "Absolutely!"..? :-)

How DO they
produce hay in Germany other than by growing it in
hayfields and cutting it?

Same here but e have small farms and the farmers seem to
remove poison plants like ragwort or henbane in advance..

| Hmm.., at the moment I'm not able to detect any
| correlation or cause and effect.. Thanks..
It's a well-known fact, to farmers, and has been for
centuries. Because of the way that horses (and sheep) eat,
they will eat round even quite small distasteful plants,
thus allowing them to grow to
maturity. Cattle, on the other hand, eat differently and
will crop the seedlings of such plants, so have a tendency
to eliminate the weeds.

Agreed.., was blended by the "increased use" thing, too..

Once they are established, you need to mow them before
cattle will eat them again.

--
cu
Marco