I seem to recall that the cinnibar moth makes a good control for ragwort.

I wonder if we will see a proliferation of these wonderful moths in the
coming months?

regards
Don

In article ,
Robert writes:
|
| | A really good, balanced source of information on the pros and cons of
| | ragwort is the Natural England/English Nature information note,
| | primarily aimed at farmers and land managers but very useful to anyone
| | interested.
| | http://tinyurl.com/26kwaw
|
| Not really. It's better, but still biassed.
|
| Only if it does not support your particular viewpoint

Twaddle. Bias is bias. I agree that it did its best to avoid any
bias, but it relied too heavily on the 'information' provided by
the anti-ragwort camp.

For example, nowhere does it address the question "Is ragwort really
a problem, anyway?"

| I agree that grazing horses undoubtedly contribute to the problem, along
| with other livestock and rabbits and pasture management that is not up
| to scratch - horses are far from being the major cause.

I never said that horse grazing was THE major cause, but it is most
definitely ONE of the major causes.

That is because of what happened to pasture and pastural practices in
the immediate post-war decades, especially in many areas of the
stockbroker belt. The conversion of pasture from mixed stock to horses
alone caused a great many fields to become infested with such weeds.
And there I said "caused" and I meant "caused".


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Hi..

Agreed.., was blended by the "increased use" thing, too..

....blinded..?
--
cu
Marco

On 11 Aug 2007 14:07:33 GMT, (Nick Maclaren) wrote:


In article ,
judith writes:
|
| It fails to point out that is a significant issue only for ragwort
| growing in hay fields, when the hay is cut, ragwort and all; or that
| exactly the same is true of MANY other common grassland and hedgerow
| plants.
|
| I am sure you are right - BUT the amount that there is currently
| growing uncontrolled on verges and other than in hayfields will
| significantly contribute to the amount which will be growing in hay
| fields in the near future.

Not really. The ragwort you notice is not typically a first-year
plant, and properly managed hayfields do not generally develop a
lot of ragwort, thistles, nettles etc., even when it is all around
them.

So a very significant amount on the verges etc will not lead to a very
significant increase on surrounding land next year - which in turn
will lead to .........

Seems to me that it would.

In message , Nick Maclaren
writes
|
| Not really. It's better, but still biassed.
|
| Only if it does not support your particular viewpoint

Twaddle. Bias is bias. I agree that it did its best to avoid any
bias, but it relied too heavily on the 'information' provided by
the anti-ragwort camp.

For example, nowhere does it address the question "Is ragwort really
a problem, anyway?"

I really do not agree with you on this - it clearly sets out in some
detail the great value of the plant as a wildlife food source,
particularly to invertebrates, and as a general pollinator.

I do not think that anyone disputes that the effects of ragwort toxicity
are detrimental and can be fatal to cattle and horses.

The note does indicate the nature of the problem: "Many grazing animals
are at risk from the toxic effects of consuming ragwort by grazing the
plant and consuming it in forage. Horses are especially susceptible.
Cattle, sheep, goats and pigs, especially of adapted breeds, will avoid
eating ragwort when it is growing but are more at risk when plants are
wilted or dying."

And as previously mentioned: "Cattle and ponies preferentially avoid
common ragwort unless it has been cut and left in a wilted condition."


| I agree that grazing horses undoubtedly contribute to the problem, along
| with other livestock and rabbits and pasture management that is not up
| to scratch - horses are far from being the major cause.

I never said that horse grazing was THE major cause, but it is most
definitely ONE of the major causes.

Apologies, you said "...a major cause of the problem" and not "...the
major cause..."


That is because of what happened to pasture and pastural practices in
the immediate post-war decades, especially in many areas of the
stockbroker belt. The conversion of pasture from mixed stock to horses
alone caused a great many fields to become infested with such weeds.
And there I said "caused" and I meant "caused".

As I indicated before horses have undoubtedly contributed to the
problem, however, the problem of ragwort spread is just one of symptom
of the progress of intensification. The growth in the number of 'pony
paddocks' is (in addition to a more affluent society and a consequent
spread of horse ownership from the farming community and other
landowners) a by product of first intensification and, now CAP change
leading to the decoupling of subsidies from production, removing an
incentive to livestock farming which in turn leads to less than ideal
management of pasture.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

--
Robert

On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 08:07:46 -0700, wrote:
snip


This appears to be a very informative ragwort site:
http://www.surreycc.gov.uk/sccwebsit...t?opendocument


--
___ _______ ___ ___ ___ __ ____
/ _ \/ __/ _ | / _ \ / _ \/ _ |/ / / / /
/ // / _// __ |/ // / / ___/ __ / /_/ / /__
/____/___/_/ |_/____/ /_/ /_/ |_\____/____/

"Mary Fisher" wrote:

"Billy" wrote in message
...
Do you mean Stinking Billy?

It has all sorts of common and local names, I suspect since one I know is
Stinking Willy I expect yours is the same. It's also known as
Stinkweed - it
doesn't really smell pleasant so that part's true :-)

All these things are subjective. I allow lots of ragwort to grow on my
property[**], partly because of the amount of insects that thrive on it,
partly because I find it a very attractive plant in its own right. I
LIKE the smell of it, as well as the look. I dislike the smell of
evening primrose, which I also seem to have a lot of.

In this as in most things we seem to think with at least two minds. We
worry about environmental degradation and the alarming rate of
extinctions then make an enemy of a truly beneficial plant.

[**] though I do try to control its seeding by pulling it up before the
seed is fully set and ready to fly.

In article ,
judith writes:
|
| So a very significant amount on the verges etc will not lead to a very
| significant increase on surrounding land next year - which in turn
| will lead to .........
|
| Seems to me that it would.

It does seem to. But it doesn't. Look at it this way. A plant's
spread is limited by a large number of factors, of which it is usual
that one dominates at any one time. Now, in the case of some plants
(usually with large seeds), the main limit is the amount of seed.

But, in ragwort, it is the availability of patches of loose soil that
will remain undisturbed for the next growing season - i.e. places
where a ragwort seedling can get large enough to compete with the
grass before it is smothered. If you don't have those, you don't
get ragwort, no matter how much there is in the verges. So it grows
in neither established sward nor in regularly disturbed areas.

The same applies to quite a lot of plants with similar properties,
of which the most obvious in pasture are thistles and stinging
nettles. If either of the latter are eaten down to the base before
they have established themselves, they will die; after that, they
will regrow. Ragwort is similar, with some differences.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

"brian mitchell" wrote in message
...
"Mary Fisher" wrote:

"Billy" wrote in message
...
Do you mean Stinking Billy?

It has all sorts of common and local names, I suspect since one I know is
Stinking Willy I expect yours is the same. It's also known as
Stinkweed - it
doesn't really smell pleasant so that part's true :-)

All these things are subjective. I allow lots of ragwort to grow on my
property[**], partly because of the amount of insects that thrive on it,
partly because I find it a very attractive plant in its own right. I
LIKE the smell of it, as well as the look. I dislike the smell of
evening primrose, which I also seem to have a lot of.

I didn't know ep had a scent! It doesn't grow in my garden, Mrs Next Door
has a lot but she bought the plants.

In this as in most things we seem to think with at least two minds. We
worry about environmental degradation and the alarming rate of
extinctions then make an enemy of a truly beneficial plant.

I couldn't agree more!

[**] though I do try to control its seeding by pulling it up before the
seed is fully set and ready to fly.

Same here. Those which are missed are allowed to glorify the patch they
occupy.

Mary

Don wrote:
I seem to recall that the cinnibar moth makes a good control for ragwort.

I wonder if we will see a proliferation of these wonderful moths in the
coming months?

We always have a fair population of them (cinnabar moths that is) on
our fields and we're always pleased to see them. In fact when we're
clearing the worst of the ragwort we often leave the plants which are
heavily infested with cinnabar moth caterpillers so that they will
help keep the ragwort to manageable levels.

--
Chris Green

Nick Maclaren wrote:

But, in ragwort, it is the availability of patches of loose soil that
will remain undisturbed for the next growing season - i.e. places
where a ragwort seedling can get large enough to compete with the
grass before it is smothered. If you don't have those, you don't
get ragwort, no matter how much there is in the verges. So it grows
in neither established sward nor in regularly disturbed areas.

Yes, the *best* way to keep ragwort to an acceptably low level on
grazing fields is to make sure that there is a good sward of grass
growing there.

We have 9 acres of very sandy land in south Suffolk and keep two
horses. The rgawort is *much* more prevalent on the horse's fields
than in the orchard, this is simply because the orchard grass is much
less grazed down. The better we can make the growth of grass on the
horse's fields the less problem we have with ragwort.


The same applies to quite a lot of plants with similar properties,
of which the most obvious in pasture are thistles and stinging
nettles.

Nettles are a little different, they like (relatively) fertile ground
that is high in nitrogen, ragwort thrives on much poorer ground.
Anywhere that nettles grow on our fields will be almost completely
free of ragwort and, similarly, where ragwort grows there are no
nettles. Thistles tend to favour the same areas as nettles though
will spread a little more into the drier areas.

--
Chris Green

In article ,
writes:
|
| The same applies to quite a lot of plants with similar properties,
| of which the most obvious in pasture are thistles and stinging
| nettles.
|
| Nettles are a little different, they like (relatively) fertile ground
| that is high in nitrogen, ...

Phosphorus, actually, which is why the effect of heavy animal use
shows up in bigger and better nettles for centuries afterwards.
Nitrogen cycles through the soil in a year or two; potassium lasts
longer, but leaches out. Phosphorus does neither.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.