"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 4 Dec 2002 06:49:05 +0000 (UTC), "Charlie"
wrote:


world shortages and EU aid payments. But celebration would be
prematu the bad news is, it is all downhill from here.
(The Times, September 27 1996)

I wonder if they have ever looked back at this cutting and realised what
an
absolutely true piece of reporting this was!!
If farmers had known what was coming after this I am sure there would be
far
less about now, most could have sold up then and been better off now if
they
had never done another days work.

Hm. If The Times could see it coming, why couldn't the farmers.

Farming is a cycical bussness. If we ran and hid at every down market you
would be rather short on food. When I quit faming I took a dressing down in
a restrant from one of my neighors for it. "My dad had farmed that land and
so had my grand dad and I by God sould stick to it". It wasn't a polite or
quite discussion. It's not a job that pays wages that you can get another
down around the corner. It's what many of our families have done for
generations. My son is one of very few men in my family that never worked a
farm or ranch of his own. He is still young. I have a cousin that is just
taking full control of my ranch in my mothers side of the family. She is 58.

If your governments are going to tie your farmers hands so he can't make a
profit they are pretty much obliged to keep him in business or risk being
very bad way when a food shortage comes along. Get in that position and you
will find how hard hearted the grain merchants really are. They will make
OPEC look like pussy cats. They don't have diplomats.
--
Gordon

Gordon Couger
Stillwater, OK
www.couger.com/gcouger

Torsten Brinch wrote in message
...
On Wed, 4 Dec 2002 06:49:05 +0000 (UTC), "Charlie"
wrote:


world shortages and EU aid payments. But celebration would be
prematu the bad news is, it is all downhill from here.
(The Times, September 27 1996)

I wonder if they have ever looked back at this cutting and realised
what an
absolutely true piece of reporting this was!!
If farmers had known what was coming after this I am sure there would
be far
less about now, most could have sold up then and been better off now
if they
had never done another days work.

Hm. If The Times could see it coming, why couldn't the farmers.

simple, you remember the one the Times got right, over the period there
will have been scores of predictions in various media, some of which
might well have been right.

--
Jim Webster

"The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind"

'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami'

On Wed, 4 Dec 2002 23:23:24 -0600, "Gordon Couger"
wrote:


"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 4 Dec 2002 06:49:05 +0000 (UTC), "Charlie"
wrote:


world shortages and EU aid payments. But celebration would be
prematu the bad news is, it is all downhill from here.
(The Times, September 27 1996)

I wonder if they have ever looked back at this cutting and realised what
an
absolutely true piece of reporting this was!!
If farmers had known what was coming after this I am sure there would be
far
less about now, most could have sold up then and been better off now if
they
had never done another days work.

Hm. If The Times could see it coming, why couldn't the farmers.

Farming is a cycical bussness. If we ran and hid at every down market you
would be rather short on food.

But that isn't the point. UK had in 1996 a farm income peak, the
highest in 20 years. The Times could see what would come after, so why
couldn't the farmers.

When I quit faming I took a dressing down in
a restrant from one of my neighors for it. "My dad had farmed that land and
so had my grand dad and I by God sould stick to it". It wasn't a polite or
quite discussion. It's not a job that pays wages that you can get another
down around the corner. It's what many of our families have done for
generations.

That could be one mechanism, some would hold on to a non-competitive
business for, eh, not particularly rational reasons.

If your governments are going to tie your farmers hands so he can't make a
profit they are pretty much obliged to keep him in business

But our governments are not tying farmers hands so they can't make a
profit! Businesses must stay competitive to make a profit, and it is
no secret that UK farming has had on average higher overheads and
lower increase in productivity than farming elsewhere and for quite a
while. E.g. over the last few years UK farmers have been able to
shave away farming labor costs at a rate of appr. 30 full time workers
per day, or 10,000 per year.

In article , Jim Webster
writes
world shortages and EU aid payments. But celebration would be
prematu the bad news is, it is all downhill from here.
(The Times, September 27 1996)

I wonder if they have ever looked back at this cutting and realised
what an
absolutely true piece of reporting this was!!
If farmers had known what was coming after this I am sure there would
be far
less about now, most could have sold up then and been better off now
if they
had never done another days work.

Hm. If The Times could see it coming, why couldn't the farmers.

simple, you remember the one the Times got right, over the period there
will have been scores of predictions in various media, some of which
might well have been right.

Also we had no experience of EU politicians learning from their
mistakes. Whatever financial mechanism caused the '96 cereal bonanza was
soon adjusted:-(

McSharry reforms?


regards

--
Tim Lamb

On Thu, 5 Dec 2002 09:30:58 +0000, Tim Lamb
wrote:

In article , Jim Webster
writes
world shortages and EU aid payments. But celebration would be
prematu the bad news is, it is all downhill from here.
(The Times, September 27 1996)

I wonder if they have ever looked back at this cutting and realised
what an
absolutely true piece of reporting this was!!
If farmers had known what was coming after this I am sure there would
be far
less about now, most could have sold up then and been better off now
if they
had never done another days work.

Hm. If The Times could see it coming, why couldn't the farmers.

simple, you remember the one the Times got right, over the period there
will have been scores of predictions in various media, some of which
might well have been right.

what a maroon

Also we had no experience of EU politicians learning from their
mistakes. Whatever financial mechanism caused the '96 cereal bonanza was
soon adjusted:-(

McSharry reforms?

Yes, obviously, that was one of the ingredients. The farmers can't say
they didn't know about it, nor that they were so naive as to think
that the reform would warm better than wetting ones pants does.

In article ,
Gordon Couger wrote:

snip

If your governments are going to tie your farmers hands so he can't make a
profit they are pretty much obliged to keep him in business or risk being
very bad way when a food shortage comes along. Get in that position and you
will find how hard hearted the grain merchants really are. They will make
OPEC look like pussy cats. They don't have diplomats.
--

Thankyou Gordon.

Let's take a couple of points.

"obliged to keep him in business".
The phrase that comes to mind is "you and whose army?" The UK govt is
showing that they are not obliged to consider anybody else's opinion - not
anybody in the UK anyway. Nobody has the power to force them to do anything
- parliamentary democracy is now dead and gone - so there is no way they
can be considered "obliged" to do anything. The worst that can happen to
them is they don't get back into power and most of them will have other
career paths organised if that happens.

"risk being in a very bad way when food shortage comes along."
Who will be in a bad way? Not the members of govt. It's the poorer
members of UK who will feel the pinch first; govt memebrs are well-off
enough that they will be amongst the last to fail to buy. And who will be
to blame? The UK farmers of course; "We've paid them all these subsidies
out of our hard earned taxes and now they won't provide the food when we
need it". All at a moment's notice, of course.

"Find out how hard hearted the grain merchants really are."
Yes. Well they are in business and business has no place for any sort of
heart; just the bottom line for your investors now and some provision for
future business (either as the current company or a successor which may or
may not be in the same line of business). That is the function of a
business. Any "heart" may be in individual members not in the business
itself. That "heart" is one of the functions of governments; or should be.

I agree wholeheartedly with your sentiments. Just think you are being a bit
over-optimistic if you think that UK govt will feel any obligations in
this line.

Cheers
Jane
Gordon

Gordon Couger
Stillwater, OK
www.couger.com/gcouger

--

Jane G : : S Devon

In article ,
says...
On Wed, 4 Dec 2002 23:23:24 -0600, "Gordon Couger"
wrote:



Farming is a cycical bussness. If we ran and hid at every down market you
would be rather short on food.

But that isn't the point. UK had in 1996 a farm income peak, the
highest in 20 years. The Times could see what would come after, so why
couldn't the farmers.

How would you have managed the situation? Sold and run?
--
David
Visit http://www.farm-direct.co.uk for your local farmgate food supplies.
FAQ's, Glossary, Farming Year and more!

On Fri, 6 Dec 2002 19:12:05 -0000, David P
wrote:

In article ,
says...
On Wed, 4 Dec 2002 23:23:24 -0600, "Gordon Couger"
wrote:



Farming is a cycical bussness. If we ran and hid at every down market you
would be rather short on food.

But that isn't the point. UK had in 1996 a farm income peak, the
highest in 20 years. The Times could see what would come after, so why
couldn't the farmers.

How would you have managed the situation? Sold and run?

You mean, sell my hypothetical UK farmland? Hell no, David, no way,
not in 1996, just a few years after the CAP reform :-)

In article ,
says...
On Fri, 6 Dec 2002 19:12:05 -0000, David P
wrote:

In article ,
says...
On Wed, 4 Dec 2002 23:23:24 -0600, "Gordon Couger"
wrote:



Farming is a cycical bussness. If we ran and hid at every down market you
would be rather short on food.

But that isn't the point. UK had in 1996 a farm income peak, the
highest in 20 years. The Times could see what would come after, so why
couldn't the farmers.

How would you have managed the situation? Sold and run?

You mean, sell my hypothetical UK farmland? Hell no, David, no way,
not in 1996, just a few years after the CAP reform :-)

Would your advice have been for *everyone* to do that?

--
David
Visit http://www.farm-direct.co.uk for your local farmgate food supplies.
FAQ's, Glossary, Farming Year and more!

On Fri, 6 Dec 2002 20:25:40 -0000, David P
wrote:

In article ,
says...
On Fri, 6 Dec 2002 19:12:05 -0000, David P
wrote:

In article ,
says...
On Wed, 4 Dec 2002 23:23:24 -0600, "Gordon Couger"
wrote:



Farming is a cycical bussness. If we ran and hid at every down market you
would be rather short on food.

But that isn't the point. UK had in 1996 a farm income peak, the
highest in 20 years. The Times could see what would come after, so why
couldn't the farmers.

How would you have managed the situation? Sold and run?

You mean, sell my hypothetical UK farmland? Hell no, David, no way,
not in 1996, just a few years after the CAP reform :-)

Would your advice have been for *everyone* to do that?

That's even more hypothetical, what kind of questioning is that? But
no, David, of course I wouldn't. E.g. to some with the poorer land,
1996 might be a good year to sell.

On Friday, in article

"Torsten Brinch" wrote:

On Fri, 6 Dec 2002 19:12:05 -0000, David P
wrote:

In article ,
says...
On Wed, 4 Dec 2002 23:23:24 -0600, "Gordon Couger"
wrote:



Farming is a cycical bussness. If we ran and hid at every down market you
would be rather short on food.

But that isn't the point. UK had in 1996 a farm income peak, the
highest in 20 years. The Times could see what would come after, so why
couldn't the farmers.

How would you have managed the situation? Sold and run?

You mean, sell my hypothetical UK farmland? Hell no, David, no way,
not in 1996, just a few years after the CAP reform :-)

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, isn't it.


--
David G. Bell -- SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.

"Let me get this straight. You're the KGB's core AI, but you're afraid
of a copyright infringement lawsuit over your translator semiotics?"
From "Lobsters" by Charles Stross.

On Fri, 06 Dec 2002 20:56:37 +0000 (GMT),
("David G. Bell") wrote:

On Friday, in article

"Torsten Brinch" wrote:

On Fri, 6 Dec 2002 19:12:05 -0000, David P
wrote:

In article ,
says...
On Wed, 4 Dec 2002 23:23:24 -0600, "Gordon Couger"
wrote:



Farming is a cycical bussness. If we ran and hid at every down market you
would be rather short on food.

But that isn't the point. UK had in 1996 a farm income peak, the
highest in 20 years. The Times could see what would come after, so why
couldn't the farmers.

How would you have managed the situation? Sold and run?

You mean, sell my hypothetical UK farmland? Hell no, David, no way,
not in 1996, just a few years after the CAP reform :-)

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, isn't it.

The Times didn't need hindsight to see what would come after, so why
should the farmers.

On Friday, in article

"Torsten Brinch" wrote:

On Fri, 06 Dec 2002 20:56:37 +0000 (GMT),
("David G. Bell") wrote:

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, isn't it.

The Times didn't need hindsight to see what would come after, so why
should the farmers.

You are looking back, and seeing the prediction, and judging its truth
by the use of hindsight.

What evidence was there in 1996 that the prediction printed in The Times
was a prediction of such a horrifying economic disaster as had occurred?

Who made the prediction? Who was the person? What other economic
predictions have they made, and how often have they been correct?

I don't think that anyone would have argued that 1996 wasn't an
exceptional year, and I suggest that the idiots are the people who did
things like buying land on the basis of 1996 farm incomes. Were those
of us who took the money, and replaced old machinery, and invested it in
our businesses, so foolish?

I feel absolutely ****ing stupid to be still in farming now, watching my
assets bleed away to feed an uncaring population of beer-swilling,
ignorant, couch potatoes. I see people like you, who see a certain,
predictable, and comfortable world, and I want to tell you to get off
your fat arse and grow your own bloody food, instead of bitching about
complaints from the people you pauperise to keep yourself in your
bloated, overheated, soap-watching, comfort.

But you're only worth six feet of English soil, and as much more as you
may be taller than other men.


--
David G. Bell -- SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.

"Let me get this straight. You're the KGB's core AI, but you're afraid
of a copyright infringement lawsuit over your translator semiotics?"
From "Lobsters" by Charles Stross.

In article ,
says...
On Fri, 6 Dec 2002 20:25:40 -0000, David P
wrote:

In article ,
says...
On Fri, 6 Dec 2002 19:12:05 -0000, David P
wrote:

In article ,
says...
On Wed, 4 Dec 2002 23:23:24 -0600, "Gordon Couger"
wrote:



Farming is a cycical bussness. If we ran and hid at every down market you
would be rather short on food.

But that isn't the point. UK had in 1996 a farm income peak, the
highest in 20 years. The Times could see what would come after, so why
couldn't the farmers.

How would you have managed the situation? Sold and run?

You mean, sell my hypothetical UK farmland? Hell no, David, no way,
not in 1996, just a few years after the CAP reform :-)

Would your advice have been for *everyone* to do that?

That's even more hypothetical, what kind of questioning is that?

A fairly logical one .. . you were impling that the people who were still
farming were short-sighted. I was merely attempting to discover what you
would have done had you been unfortunate enough to be a farmer.

But
no, David, of course I wouldn't.

Why? You clearly feel that the farmers who stuck with it should have
sold out. Why would you not take your own advice?

--
David
Visit http://www.farm-direct.co.uk for your local farmgate food supplies.
FAQ's, Glossary, Farming Year and more!

On Fri, 6 Dec 2002 22:14:20 -0000, David P
wrote:
you were impling that the people who were still
farming were short-sighted.

I was not. snipped the rest, all written under that misconception