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#1
26-04-2003, 01:26 PM
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recording animal movement
Andrew Heggie wrote in message ... On Wed, 11 Dec 2002 07:02:34 -0000, "Jim Webster" wrote: every bovine animal has to have two ear tags, its passport, every movement off one holding onto another has to be reported. Even Zoos have to do this. How is this policed and what are the regulations for other cloven hooved animals? I brought back in the x posting because Gordon and others might find this interesting "Trading Standards Officers" turn up at auction marts and check animals, so most auction marts police it anyway to cover themselves. The "Rural Payments agency have a rolling programme of random checks, which intent to check every farm at least once in five years but more often for larger farms. These checks are reckonned by the RPA to take an average of about three days, most happen at a couple of hours notice, and every animal has its eartag checked, plus they go through all your movement records andwill checkthem against other peoples records. Various bodies such as Trading Standards departments can turn up (an do) unannounced to see you movement documents, it the documents are not up to date you are locked down until the authorities are happy with them, which can take six months. Then there are fines and penalties. I have an ulterior motive for wishing to know a bit more following a dead cow arriving on some land near me. It strikes me it should easily be possible to trace it, even in the absence of tags. that is tricky because you would have to check an awful lot of farms to find someone with one missing, and that person might well have had it stolen or reported it stolen. Should I be concerned if I can see cattle with tags missing, apart from being an expense to the farmer is it serving a purpose, plainly like other legislation avoiding complying could be a useful cost saving the over legitimate farmer. virtually impossible to avoid compliance in the longer term. The worst offenders are dairy farmers whose cattle never move. They therefore barely need tags as dairy farmers herds have more ID than you could reasonably expect anyway. Dairy farmers tend to be the ones frantically phoning for replacement tags because an old cow is booked in on to OTMS and at slaughter ALL tags have to be absolutely correct. Farmer to farmer deals are possible without proper tags but otherwise you cannot move animals who are incorrectly tagged. -- Jim Webster "The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind" 'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami' AJH |
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#2
26-04-2003, 01:26 PM
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recording animal movement
"Jim Webster" wrote in message
... The "Rural Payments agency have a rolling programme of random checks, which intent to check every farm at least once in five years but more often for larger farms. They came here just before FMD and then again last week. These checks are reckonned by the RPA to take an average of about three days, All day Friday and Monday afternoon (two people) for our 500 (?) head most happen at a couple of hours notice They phoned us and made an apointment. and every animal has its eartag checked, plus they go through all your movement records and will check them against other peoples records. Most errors were either local mart and/or BCMS offenders are dairy farmers whose cattle never move. They therefore barely need tags as dairy farmers herds have more ID than you could reasonably expect anyway. All our cows have ear tags, although some are kept safely in the box in the office where there is less chance of loosing them!! Dairy farmers tend to be the ones frantically phoning for replacement tags because an old cow is booked in on to OTMS and at slaughter ALL tags have to be absolutely correct. That's where Denimex come in for my praise, tags at 24 hours notice. (0800 243 557) Farmer to farmer deals are possible without proper tags but otherwise you cannot move animals who are incorrectly tagged. Are you suggesting that we would move animals without checking their tags??? ;-)) -- J B |
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#3
26-04-2003, 01:26 PM
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recording animal movement
J B wrote in message ... "Jim Webster" wrote in message ... The "Rural Payments agency have a rolling programme of random checks, which intent to check every farm at least once in five years but more often for larger farms. They came here just before FMD and then again last week. These checks are reckonned by the RPA to take an average of about three days, All day Friday and Monday afternoon (two people) for our 500 (?) head milk cows are a doddle, imagine putting 200 limi stirks or 60 limi beef cows through ( especially if you have to fetch them down off the fell before hand) most happen at a couple of hours notice They phoned us and made an apointment. In theory 10% have to be totally unannounced. If you just have milk cows then you will have no cattle in retention and claim no money direct so they may not give you the full treatment. Normally they phone at 8am to say they want to see you at 10am. They will be flexible and come following day if you aren't there, but more than 48 hours delay they damned near have to contact Brussels direct . and every animal has its eartag checked, plus they go through all your movement records and will check them against other peoples records. Most errors were either local mart and/or BCMS BCMS yes, but our local mart has got a better record than a lot of farmers we buy off. offenders are dairy farmers whose cattle never move. They therefore barely need tags as dairy farmers herds have more ID than you could reasonably expect anyway. All our cows have ear tags, although some are kept safely in the box in the office where there is less chance of loosing them!! :-))) Dairy farmers tend to be the ones frantically phoning for replacement tags because an old cow is booked in on to OTMS and at slaughter ALL tags have to be absolutely correct. That's where Denimex come in for my praise, tags at 24 hours notice. (0800 243 557) I think that is a number UK readers might want to note down. Farmer to farmer deals are possible without proper tags but otherwise you cannot move animals who are incorrectly tagged. Are you suggesting that we would move animals without checking their tags??? ;-)) heaven forbid :-)))) -- Jim Webster "The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind" 'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami' -- J B |
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#4
26-04-2003, 01:26 PM
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recording animal movement
Guys,
Can you please explain why, in this day and age, you are still using ancient ID methods ie tags ? Surely ID implants are the way to go, simple,permanent, easily read, cheap.ID chips implanted by "small animal" vets average less than £20; a "package" deal would reduce the cost to what ?........£4/5 a head. Years ago we used tattoo's, now tags, next implants, c'mon....be brave....embrace the new technology, afterall you found computers!!!!!!!!! Brian H........ ducking awaiting incoming flak |
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#5
26-04-2003, 01:26 PM
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recording animal movement
Gordon Couger wrote in message One year I had a neighbors calf in wiht mine when I took them to market and before I took them I asked him if he wanted to come get it or send it along with mine. He ask how we would tell them apart. It was easy it was the one that brought the most money. It out weighed mine about 150 pounds. He let it go with mine. The way we ran cattle on wheat pasture and used hot wire fence we would often get calves mixed and just take care of the other fellows calves until we gathered them for market. They would loose a day or two of gain if worked them to get one or two out. A lot of places we would have to set up portable corrals or drive them to a neighbors to pen them. That would drive your regulators batty. As would the wild cattle that are still out there in places. there are underlying worries about feral sheep. In the lake district, fell sheep are kept by many farmers on pretty rough terrain, and on some fells there are a handful of old ewes who aren't really farmed by anyone. Worse are those who got into the forestry plantations and have hung on in there. With cattle what happens and what is reported as happening need not co-incide to closely. I know people round here who have had a bullock turn up. You phone the neighbour and if it has got in with yours then often it is a case of next time you fetch them in for anything, sort his out and he will collect it. Depends on how well you get on with your neighbours. I know of one bullock that was on a neighbouring farm for four months before the "host" bought the animal. They couldn't buy it earlier because the animal was locked down under the 20 day rule and they would have been overstocked and lost extensification payments if they had owned him. At one point the animal stood out in the lane looking embarassed as the host farm had "all" its cattle TB tested by a ministry vet. -- Jim Webster "The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind" 'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami' Gordon |
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#6
26-04-2003, 01:26 PM
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recording animal movement
Brian H. wrote in message ... Guys, Can you please explain why, in this day and age, you are still using ancient ID methods ie tags ? Surely ID implants are the way to go, simple,permanent, easily read, cheap.ID chips implanted by "small animal" vets average less than £20; a "package" deal would reduce the cost to what ?........£4/5 a head. Years ago we used tattoo's, now tags, next implants, c'mon....be brave....embrace the new technology, afterall you found computers!!!!!!!!! Brian H........ ducking awaiting incoming flak no reason to duck In simple terms there are two systems which are incompatable (I forget the acronyms) one is slightly more powerful than the other. Unfortunately while both seem to work well enough with a portal reader (gate) as you would set up in an auction mart, none of the hand held readers have more than 18" range max. A big ear tag that is clean can be read up to six feet away, and in good conditions I have read them at 20 yards (Cheated, took binoculars) The cost is also against the chips, they aren't much more expensive than ordinary tags, could perhaps be cheaper, but the readers are expensive enough to make a good pair of binoculars look like value. Our IT professionals will doubtless tell us what happens to a computer that has to live in rain and sh*t, the portable ones have keyboards far too small to punch with cold, numb, wet and dirty fingers. Also the EU is still deciding which of the two competing systems the EU will take up, so until that happens don't hold your breath. -- Jim Webster "The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind" 'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami' |
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#7
26-04-2003, 01:26 PM
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recording animal movement
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#8
26-04-2003, 01:28 PM
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recording animal movement
"Jim Webster" wrote in message ... Gordon Couger wrote in message One year I had a neighbors calf in wiht mine when I took them to market and before I took them I asked him if he wanted to come get it or send it along with mine. He ask how we would tell them apart. It was easy it was the one that brought the most money. It out weighed mine about 150 pounds. He let it go with mine. The way we ran cattle on wheat pasture and used hot wire fence we would often get calves mixed and just take care of the other fellows calves until we gathered them for market. They would loose a day or two of gain if worked them to get one or two out. A lot of places we would have to set up portable corrals or drive them to a neighbors to pen them. That would drive your regulators batty. As would the wild cattle that are still out there in places. there are underlying worries about feral sheep. In the lake district, fell sheep are kept by many farmers on pretty rough terrain, and on some fells there are a handful of old ewes who aren't really farmed by anyone. Worse are those who got into the forestry plantations and have hung on in there. With cattle what happens and what is reported as happening need not co-incide to closely. I know people round here who have had a bullock turn up. You phone the neighbour and if it has got in with yours then often it is a case of next time you fetch them in for anything, sort his out and he will collect it. Depends on how well you get on with your neighbours. I know of one bullock that was on a neighbouring farm for four months before the "host" bought the animal. They couldn't buy it earlier because the animal was locked down under the 20 day rule and they would have been overstocked and lost extensification payments if they had owned him. At one point the animal stood out in the lane looking embarassed as the host farm had "all" its cattle TB tested by a ministry vet. My news program must have lost this tread I picked it up in Califonia visting my son. I guess I need to get a better news feed. Your rules would interfer with reality a lot. Getting on with neighbors is damned important. I know men that have killed each other over fence disputes. I had one landlord that always wanted me to go with him when he visted one neighbor. And the old man was as tough as they come. He just didn't want any trouble to start. Gordon |
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#9
26-04-2003, 01:28 PM
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recording animal movement
Gordon Couger wrote in message news:tSaO9.499483$QZ.75172@sccrnsc02... My news program must have lost this tread I picked it up in Califonia visting my son. I guess I need to get a better news feed. Certainly lookes like it :-)) Your rules would interfer with reality a lot. they do, and as we all know, reality is real and it is what happens in the end. Getting on with neighbors is damned important. I know men that have killed each other over fence disputes. I had one landlord that always wanted me to go with him when he visted one neighbor. And the old man was as tough as they come. He just didn't want any trouble to start. I think that sort of neighbour is not restricted to any one country. I know neighbours in this country who are best not armed, rural and urban. -- Jim Webster "The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind" 'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami' Gordon |
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#10
26-04-2003, 01:28 PM
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recording animal movement
"Jim Webster" wrote in message ... Gordon Couger wrote in message news:tSaO9.499483$QZ.75172@sccrnsc02... My news program must have lost this tread I picked it up in Califonia visting my son. I guess I need to get a better news feed. Certainly lookes like it :-)) Your rules would interfer with reality a lot. they do, and as we all know, reality is real and it is what happens in the end. Getting on with neighbors is damned important. I know men that have killed each other over fence disputes. I had one landlord that always wanted me to go with him when he visted one neighbor. And the old man was as tough as they come. He just didn't want any trouble to start. I think that sort of neighbour is not restricted to any one country. I know neighbours in this country who are best not armed, rural and urban. In rual areas you best considier you neighrbor armed. He may not be but he most likely is. It is no for two legged varments but four legged ones but in the heat of the momement bird shot at close range is as effective as a 50 caliber BMG at 1,000 yards. All witner I carrerd a shot gun for ducks and quail and a highpowered rifile for coyotes, badgers and racoons. If I was trapping I carried a pistol. You could tell most farmers that were armed they guns hung from a rack in the back widow of their truck. It make for a more polite societ. Gordon |
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#11
26-04-2003, 01:28 PM
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recording animal movement
Gordon Couger wrote in message news:sHzO9.463097$WL3.124760@rwcrnsc54... It make for a more polite society. I can well imagine :-)) -- Jim Webster "The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind" 'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami' Gordon |
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#12
26-04-2003, 01:28 PM
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recording animal movement
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#13
26-04-2003, 01:28 PM
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recording animal movement
"David G. Bell" wrote in message .. . It isn't worth being polite in less than 120mm calibre.  (Though .44 Magnum may suffice in more intimate circumstances.) Anything under 175mm is merely colonial policing (while in Russia 155mm is hostage rescue and covert operations weapon.) -- Jim Webster "The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind" 'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami' |
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#14
26-04-2003, 01:28 PM
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recording animal movement
"Jim Webster" wrote in message ... "David G. Bell" wrote in message .. . It isn't worth being polite in less than 120mm calibre. (Though .44 Magnum may suffice in more intimate circumstances.) Anything under 175mm is merely colonial policing (while in Russia 155mm is hostage rescue and covert operations weapon.) The sound of 12 gauge pump shot gun loading a round in the chamber wins respect anywhere in the world. It is much easer to bring on target than a 155mm. And more effective than the 44 mag. Gordon |
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#15
19-05-2003, 02:21 AM
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recording animal movement
Andrew Heggie wrote in message ... On Wed, 11 Dec 2002 07:02:34 -0000, "Jim Webster" wrote: every bovine animal has to have two ear tags, its passport, every movement off one holding onto another has to be reported. Even Zoos have to do this. How is this policed and what are the regulations for other cloven hooved animals? I brought back in the x posting because Gordon and others might find this interesting "Trading Standards Officers" turn up at auction marts and check animals, so most auction marts police it anyway to cover themselves. The "Rural Payments agency have a rolling programme of random checks, which intent to check every farm at least once in five years but more often for larger farms. These checks are reckonned by the RPA to take an average of about three days, most happen at a couple of hours notice, and every animal has its eartag checked, plus they go through all your movement records andwill checkthem against other peoples records. Various bodies such as Trading Standards departments can turn up (an do) unannounced to see you movement documents, it the documents are not up to date you are locked down until the authorities are happy with them, which can take six months. Then there are fines and penalties. I have an ulterior motive for wishing to know a bit more following a dead cow arriving on some land near me. It strikes me it should easily be possible to trace it, even in the absence of tags. that is tricky because you would have to check an awful lot of farms to find someone with one missing, and that person might well have had it stolen or reported it stolen. Should I be concerned if I can see cattle with tags missing, apart from being an expense to the farmer is it serving a purpose, plainly like other legislation avoiding complying could be a useful cost saving the over legitimate farmer. virtually impossible to avoid compliance in the longer term. The worst offenders are dairy farmers whose cattle never move. They therefore barely need tags as dairy farmers herds have more ID than you could reasonably expect anyway. Dairy farmers tend to be the ones frantically phoning for replacement tags because an old cow is booked in on to OTMS and at slaughter ALL tags have to be absolutely correct. Farmer to farmer deals are possible without proper tags but otherwise you cannot move animals who are incorrectly tagged. -- Jim Webster "The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind" 'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami' AJH |
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