I think that your right Jim. Being from Canada, and being involved
directly with agriculture, there is no distinct advantage to having a round
up ready wheat here. The ag chemicals on the market here now do a wonderful
job on the weed spectrum, and we have some great varieties of Red Spring
Wheat.
Canola, on the other hand, has great advantages in the round up ready
system. Along with higher yielding varieties, we can now control problem
weeds such as cleavers and hawksbeard. Of the 7,000,000 acres here that are
devoted to canola, about 80% of them are devoted to round up ready canola,
10% to clearfield canola, and only 10% committed conventional canola.

By the way, Gordon, if you are reading this, I totally understand what you
are saying about a No till system, as it is happening here exactly the way
that you are explaining it. As far a Torsten is concerned, he's just an
IDIOT with no practical knowledge.







"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...

"Gordon Couger" wrote in message
news:3eaee296_3@newsfeed...
I don't think RR wheat has the market RR cotton an beans have. It has a
market where cheat grass, wild oats and a few other weed that can't be
killed in wheat by today's herbicides. But the tech fee will limit it to
those situation. That is still a good market because there are a large
number of acres of wheat and cheat and wild oats are a big problems. But
2
or 3 years of RR wheat should clean up a cheat problem. I don't know how
long it takes to clean up wild oats. I never got it done.


I wonder if RR Wheat is actually aimed at a more european market? Oz is
far
more up on weeds we have here, but wild oats can be a problem in some
places.
Jim Webster

"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...

"Gordon Couger" wrote in message
news:3eae212a_3@newsfeed...



read it again and try and comprehend the reality, RR has allowed a 1
or
2
year rotation

now stop playing silly debating games for points and try to discuss
practical agriculture

Jim,

I am not talking about 1 or 2 year rotations but 5 or more years. We
have
been doing continuous no till corn since the 70's. The first started
working
with it in the middle 60's.
Cotton and beans are sensitive to almost all over the top broad leaf
weed
killers and there are weeds that preplant and preemergence weed killers
won't get. Before Round Up resistant crops you could only get away with
no
till for a year or two before resistant weeds gave you a problem. Only
then
if you have a lot wetter weather then I do. Many of the post emergence
herbicides for cotton don't work very well unless the get some moisture
on
them in a week after they are put on. If you were raising cotton on clay
soils where you have to rotate at least every three years because of
Texas
Root Rot you could get away with it conventional chemicals with out too
bad
a weed problem because you have to rotate out for 2 or 3 years anyway. I
don't know how long that fungus lives in the soil but it was still there
on
place I farmed that hadn't had cotton on it in 20 years.

The mixes of herbicides used for no till before Round Up were persistent
in
the soil as well.


trouble is this is way past anything in his experience, because he is
restricted to what he reads. hell, even I sit back and listen when I get
practical people talking about dry land farming, something which is almost
incomprehensible to me :-))

I note that Oz has been keeping his ears open and obviously I can see some
of these techniques (probably not the actual irrigation) might come into
play in his circumstances

One of the methods of dry land farming in the low rain fall areas is summer
fallow or growing a crop every other year. We often skip a crop when going
form winter to summer crops or the other way round.

In west Texas we have a little monsoon rain in July and August maybe 4 or 5
inches. That just fits perfect with cotton. When I crunched all the numbers
I could the most significant one was 1 inch of rain in July and August made
80 pounds of cotton in southwest Oklahoma. It does better that than in west
Texas because of the lower temperatures and a clay subsoil that hold
moisture better than the soil in Oklahoma. In Oklahoma Red River is a basin
about 30 miles with filled with alluvial and aloeles sands that worn down
smooth setting on a red bed down about 40 feet. There is not a lot of
difference in the top soil and the soil 30 feet down but organic matter and
the dust that the grass caught over the eons. It is one of the oldest
features in the world. The soil is pretty unique. Red River actually fills
that whole basin but just comes out of the ground at the river.

I can't see how you raise cattle in that much rain. My experience is wet
weather and cattle are a poor mix. I am sure your cattle are acclimated to
different conditions than ours. As a rule here you never ship cattle east to
wetter conditions if you want to make money on them. We buy cattle from the
south east and they do great here. Some how the vet school got some mountain
cattle in from Colorado and had pure hell keeping them alive.

Torsten is a good target. He doesn't give up. It would be nice if knew
enough about agriculture to grow a garden and get some practical experience.
Slugs eat up everything he plants but wheat. I guess there are no organic
solutions for slugs.

Gordon

"Berube" @home wrote in message ...
I think that your right Jim. Being from Canada, and being involved
directly with agriculture, there is no distinct advantage to having a
round
up ready wheat here. The ag chemicals on the market here now do a
wonderful
job on the weed spectrum, and we have some great varieties of Red Spring
Wheat.
Canola, on the other hand, has great advantages in the round up ready
system. Along with higher yielding varieties, we can now control problem
weeds such as cleavers and hawksbeard. Of the 7,000,000 acres here that
are
devoted to canola, about 80% of them are devoted to round up ready canola,
10% to clearfield canola, and only 10% committed conventional canola.

By the way, Gordon, if you are reading this, I totally understand what
you
are saying about a No till system, as it is happening here exactly the way
that you are explaining it. As far a Torsten is concerned, he's just an
IDIOT with no practical knowledge.

Torstin's not an idiot. He just has 60 mile an hour view of farming from
driving a small oval in Denmark. He has never worked with third world
agriculture or seen dry weather. He has a very strong view that is always
consistent.

RR winter wheat would sell. There are enough weed problems that aren't
covered to make a good market for them. There are only 12 million acres of
cotton in the US that's not much compared to wheat. Seed wheat is a lot
cheaper to raise than cotton seed and will keep it's germination a lot
longer than cotton seed or soybeans. I have planted wheat that was 10 years
old and cut to pieces by weevil that got a good stand.

They can adjust the price on RR wheat a lot more than their other crops
because it will cost a lot less to raise process and keep. Cleaning out a
cotton gin to process seed is at least a two day job.

Also Monsanto uses their RR crops to sell Round Up but only guaranteeing
their crops if you use Round Up.

Gordon

On Thu, 1 May 2003 21:21:47 -0600, "Berube" @home wrote:

As far a Torsten is concerned, he's just an
IDIOT with no practical knowledge.

For the heat of the moment, perhaps. Normally Dean would be a
reasonable person, who would not pass the judgement 'idiot' on a
person, who he considers to be most certainly not stupid.

"Berube" @home wrote in message ...
I think that your right Jim. Being from Canada, and being involved
directly with agriculture, there is no distinct advantage to having a
round
up ready wheat here. The ag chemicals on the market here now do a
wonderful
job on the weed spectrum, and we have some great varieties of Red Spring
Wheat.

Oh I have every confidence in the fact that in the areas where RR doesn't
give an economic advantage, it will not happen. In those areas where it does
give an edge, then,political interference aside, it will.

Canola, on the other hand, has great advantages in the round up ready
system. Along with higher yielding varieties, we can now control problem
weeds such as cleavers and hawksbeard. Of the 7,000,000 acres here that
are
devoted to canola, about 80% of them are devoted to round up ready canola,
10% to clearfield canola, and only 10% committed conventional canola.

By the way, Gordon, if you are reading this, I totally understand what
you
are saying about a No till system, as it is happening here exactly the way
that you are explaining it. As far a Torsten is concerned, he's just an
IDIOT with no practical knowledge.


the problem is too many people think that you can understand agriculture
from reading about it, but it doesn't work like that. Also the level of
ignorance show in agriculture and agricultural techniques by some of the
people involved in the debate on GM is almost frightening

Jim Webster







"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...

"Gordon Couger" wrote in message
news:3eaee296_3@newsfeed...
I don't think RR wheat has the market RR cotton an beans have. It has
a
market where cheat grass, wild oats and a few other weed that can't be
killed in wheat by today's herbicides. But the tech fee will limit it
to
those situation. That is still a good market because there are a large
number of acres of wheat and cheat and wild oats are a big problems.
But
2
or 3 years of RR wheat should clean up a cheat problem. I don't know
how
long it takes to clean up wild oats. I never got it done.


I wonder if RR Wheat is actually aimed at a more european market? Oz is
far
more up on weeds we have here, but wild oats can be a problem in some
places.
Jim Webster

On Fri, 2 May 2003 02:25:34 -0500, "Gordon Couger"
wrote:

RR winter wheat would sell. There are enough weed problems that aren't
covered to make a good market for them.

That's the point I was trying to make the other day, on David Kendra's
report of farmers being concerned that RR wheat would interfere with
their weed control strategies. Whereas that might be the case for some
farmers, in their current strategies, that is not to say that RR wheat
could not fit into somebody elses.

On Fri, 2 May 2003 01:57:49 -0500, "Gordon Couger"
wrote:

Slugs eat up everything he plants but wheat.

Nah. To look at things positively they do not eat what I plant.

"Gordon Couger" wrote in message
news:3eb21577$1_3@newsfeed...
I can't see how you raise cattle in that much rain. My experience is wet
weather and cattle are a poor mix. I am sure your cattle are acclimated to
different conditions than ours. As a rule here you never ship cattle east
to
wetter conditions if you want to make money on them. We buy cattle from
the
south east and they do great here. Some how the vet school got some
mountain
cattle in from Colorado and had pure hell keeping them alive.

rain makes grass. I don't think you would believe the sort of grass growth
we accept as normal. Certainly at the moment ordinary perennial rye grasses
are growing so quickly that you dare not stand still in a mowing field or
they will knock you down.

The problems we can get are Pneumonia at winter housing, building design as
to take that into account, and for most of us, winter housing is brought on
because the ground is too wet.

But obviously our cattle are used to it, and to an extent yours are
descended from the same ancestors so it shouldn't be a problem to get them
back eventually.
But this spring has been strange, three weeks ago I had a calf in a calf
hutch (like an individual kennel) go down with sun stroke because it didn't
have the sense to lie in the shade like its mates. Today I had one with
exposure because it hadn't the brains to keep out of the driving rain last
night.Hopefully just bringing them into the buildings and fussing over them
a bit is all it takes to bring them round

Jim Webster

"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...

But this spring has been strange, three weeks ago I had a calf in a calf
hutch (like an individual kennel) go down with sun stroke because it
didn't
have the sense to lie in the shade like its mates. Today I had one with
exposure because it hadn't the brains to keep out of the driving rain last
night.Hopefully just bringing them into the buildings and fussing over
them
a bit is all it takes to bring them round

Do the mother's not push/coax them to where they need to be? Or, are they
just expected to follow the mother in order to eat?

M

"Michelle Fulton" wrote in message
gy.com...

"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...

But this spring has been strange, three weeks ago I had a calf in a calf
hutch (like an individual kennel) go down with sun stroke because it
didn't
have the sense to lie in the shade like its mates. Today I had one with
exposure because it hadn't the brains to keep out of the driving rain
last
night.Hopefully just bringing them into the buildings and fussing over
them
a bit is all it takes to bring them round

Do the mother's not push/coax them to where they need to be? Or, are they
just expected to follow the mother in order to eat?

these are bucket fed, mum is producing milk on a different farm. Normally
they are literally bright enough to come in out of the rain, but this one
obviously wasn't

When they are with mum they spend the first few days hidden and mum goes to
find them, then they tend to follow about after her pretty closely. Then as
they get older still they will hang about with a group of their mates, going
home for meals or when the trouble looks a bit too threatening for teenage
self confidence to face down

Jim Webster

M