On Mon, 28 Apr 2003 00:34:05 -0500, "Gordon Couger"
wrote:

Before RR cotton and beans there was no such thing as no till
cotton or beans.

Get a grip, will you. There was bloody no RR cotton and beans until
after 1995.

Tillage Survey News Release 1994:
"No-till corn has more than doubled in 5 years from 7 percent to 17
percent of all planted acres in 1993. No-till full season soybeans
have increased over 5 times in the last 5 years, from 4 percent of
total planted acres to 22 percent this year. Use of conservation
tillage for full season soybean production now exceeds 47 percent of
planted acres, half of which is mulch-till. No-till cotton has
increased more than 3 times in the last 3 years, with Tennessee,
Alabama, Georgia, North Carolina and Mississippi leading the way."

"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 28 Apr 2003 00:34:05 -0500, "Gordon Couger"
wrote:

Before RR cotton and beans there was no such thing as no till
cotton or beans.

Get a grip, will you. There was bloody no RR cotton and beans until
after 1995.

Tillage Survey News Release 1994:
"No-till corn has more than doubled in 5 years from 7 percent to 17
percent of all planted acres in 1993. No-till full season soybeans
have increased over 5 times in the last 5 years, from 4 percent of
total planted acres to 22 percent this year. Use of conservation
tillage for full season soybean production now exceeds 47 percent of
planted acres, half of which is mulch-till. No-till cotton has
increased more than 3 times in the last 3 years, with Tennessee,
Alabama, Georgia, North Carolina and Mississippi leading the way."

Not as a multi year program.

Gordon

On Mon, 28 Apr 2003 16:46:31 -0500, "Gordon Couger"
wrote:


From: "Torsten Brinch"
: On Mon, 28 Apr 2003 00:34:05 -0500, "Gordon Couger"
: wrote:
: Before RR cotton and beans there was no such thing as no till cotton or
: beans.
:
: Get a grip, will you. There was bloody no RR cotton and beans until
: after 1995.
:
: Tillage Survey News Release 1993:
: The 1992 figure is nearly four times the notill soybean acreage
: documented in 1989. The cotton crop, which began indicating no-till
: increases more recently, shows a tremendous gain of ten times the 1989
: snip

With out Round Up no till cotton and beans were a 1 or 2 year
rotation at snip

Gordon,

What you need to explain is how the f... you can write something
as ignorant as "Before RR cotton and beans there was no such thing
as no till cotton or beans."

"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 28 Apr 2003 16:46:31 -0500, "Gordon Couger"
wrote:


From: "Torsten Brinch"
: On Mon, 28 Apr 2003 00:34:05 -0500, "Gordon Couger"
: wrote:
: Before RR cotton and beans there was no such thing as no till cotton
or
: beans.
:
: Get a grip, will you. There was bloody no RR cotton and beans until
: after 1995.
:
: Tillage Survey News Release 1993:
: The 1992 figure is nearly four times the notill soybean acreage
: documented in 1989. The cotton crop, which began indicating no-till
: increases more recently, shows a tremendous gain of ten times the 1989
: snip

With out Round Up no till cotton and beans were a 1 or 2 year
rotation at snip

Gordon,

What you need to explain is how the f... you can write something
as ignorant as "Before RR cotton and beans there was no such thing
as no till cotton or beans."

I am talking about no till as a way of farming long term not as raising a
crop for a year or two with out tillage. We have been able to do that for
years. To be able to raise crops with out tillage over any time at all you
have to be able to control all the weeds wiht out hurting the crop. Round up
is the only herbicide that will do that. There is one that comes close for a
variety of wheat that is conventionally bread to be resistant to the
herbicide.

I thought I had made that very plain that I was talking about farming not a
crop for a year or two.

Gordon

"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 28 Apr 2003 16:46:31 -0500, "Gordon Couger"
wrote:


From: "Torsten Brinch"
: On Mon, 28 Apr 2003 00:34:05 -0500, "Gordon Couger"
: wrote:
: Before RR cotton and beans there was no such thing as no till cotton
or
: beans.
:
: Get a grip, will you. There was bloody no RR cotton and beans until
: after 1995.
:
: Tillage Survey News Release 1993:
: The 1992 figure is nearly four times the notill soybean acreage
: documented in 1989. The cotton crop, which began indicating no-till
: increases more recently, shows a tremendous gain of ten times the 1989
: snip

With out Round Up no till cotton and beans were a 1 or 2 year
rotation at snip

Gordon,

What you need to explain is how the f... you can write something
as ignorant as "Before RR cotton and beans there was no such thing
as no till cotton or beans."

he has,

read it again and try and comprehend the reality, RR has allowed a 1 or 2
year rotation

now stop playing silly debating games for points and try to discuss
practical agriculture

Jim Webster

"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...

"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 28 Apr 2003 16:46:31 -0500, "Gordon Couger"
wrote:


From: "Torsten Brinch"
: On Mon, 28 Apr 2003 00:34:05 -0500, "Gordon Couger"
: wrote:
: Before RR cotton and beans there was no such thing as no till cotton
or
: beans.
:
: Get a grip, will you. There was bloody no RR cotton and beans until
: after 1995.
:
: Tillage Survey News Release 1993:
: The 1992 figure is nearly four times the notill soybean acreage
: documented in 1989. The cotton crop, which began indicating no-till
: increases more recently, shows a tremendous gain of ten times the
1989
: snip

With out Round Up no till cotton and beans were a 1 or 2 year
rotation at snip

Gordon,

What you need to explain is how the f... you can write something
as ignorant as "Before RR cotton and beans there was no such thing
as no till cotton or beans."

he has,

read it again and try and comprehend the reality, RR has allowed a 1 or 2
year rotation

now stop playing silly debating games for points and try to discuss
practical agriculture

Jim,

I am not talking about 1 or 2 year rotations but 5 or more years. We have
been doing continuous no till corn since the 70's. The first started working
with it in the middle 60's.
Cotton and beans are sensitive to almost all over the top broad leaf weed
killers and there are weeds that preplant and preemergence weed killers
won't get. Before Round Up resistant crops you could only get away with no
till for a year or two before resistant weeds gave you a problem. Only then
if you have a lot wetter weather then I do. Many of the post emergence
herbicides for cotton don't work very well unless the get some moisture on
them in a week after they are put on. If you were raising cotton on clay
soils where you have to rotate at least every three years because of Texas
Root Rot you could get away with it conventional chemicals with out too bad
a weed problem because you have to rotate out for 2 or 3 years anyway. I
don't know how long that fungus lives in the soil but it was still there on
place I farmed that hadn't had cotton on it in 20 years.

The mixes of herbicides used for no till before Round Up were persistent in
the soil as well.

Gordon

On Mon, 28 Apr 2003 00:34:05 -0500, "Gordon Couger"
wrote:
Before RR cotton and beans there was no such thing as no till cotton or
beans.

On Mon, 28 Apr 2003 20:39:06 -0500, "Gordon Couger"
I am talking about no till as a way of farming long term not as raising a
crop for a year or two with out tillage.

Bwahahahahahahaha

Tillage Survey News Release 1994-1995, still no RR beans in sight:
"No-till full season (same as single crop) soybeans have increased
over 6 times in the last 6 years, from 4 percent of total planted
acres to 24 percent this year."

"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 28 Apr 2003 00:34:05 -0500, "Gordon Couger"
wrote:
Before RR cotton and beans there was no such thing as no till cotton or
beans.

On Mon, 28 Apr 2003 20:39:06 -0500, "Gordon Couger"
I am talking about no till as a way of farming long term not as raising a
crop for a year or two with out tillage.

Bwahahahahahahaha

Tillage Survey News Release 1994-1995, still no RR beans in sight:
"No-till full season (same as single crop) soybeans have increased
over 6 times in the last 6 years, from 4 percent of total planted
acres to 24 percent this year."

How many times do I have to tell you I am talking about no till farming not
no till crops that make no till farming possible. The no till crops except
corn before RR ready crops could not be kept on the same feilds over a
number of years. With beans that is not useualy a problem because you have
diesase problems if you raise them on the same ground too may years in a row
and you want to used the nitrogen they fix with another crop.

We have been doing no till crops for one or two seasons starting in the
sixties. Only with corn have we been able to make it a long term farming
system before round up ready crops.

I can't help you ignorance of farming, weeds, and all the midrib of other
things that make up farming. If it ain't in a book or on the intent you cant
find it.

It is like the time I tried to explain the nitrogen cycle to you and you
tried to use elemental N2 to work it out in a lossless system.

Someone claiming to be knowledgeable of farming that can't grow a garden is
rather suspect. When I was farming most of my gardens would have been
organic if the land had qualified because I didn't have time to spray them.
I was too busy cutting wheat and planting cotton to tend a garden. I just
planted it and watered it and came back and cleaned up the weeds after I got
through planting cotton and started picking. Of course I just planted enough
for me and the bugs and went on.

Gordon

On Mon, 28 Apr 2003 00:34:05 -0500, "Gordon Couger"
wrote:
Before RR cotton and beans there was no such thing as no till cotton or
beans.

On Tue, 29 Apr 2003 06:24:39 -0500, "Gordon Couger"
wrote:
How many times do I have to tell you I am talking about no till farming not
no till crops

Bwahahahahahahaha

Tillage Survey News Release 1995-1996, and still no RR beans in sight:
"Farmers planted an additional 2.2 million acres of no-till soybeans
this year, compared to 1994. No-till soybean acres now account for 30
percent of all soybean acres planted in the U.S."

Another major concern from farmers that I have spoken to is the fact that
another major crop with RR technology will interfer with weed control
strategies. They already hve RR soybeans and corn so why add aother major
crop? I for one hope RR wheat is not commercialized.

Dave

"Gordon Couger" wrote in message
news:3ea9f233$1_3@newsfeed...
The only major concern by farmers about RR wheat is it's marketability.
There is no point in growing something that we can't sell.

The green lobby has wandered off coarse and are trying to block the most
positive technology we have ever found for the environment and
ill-informed
believers like Torsten have swallowed their story hook line and sinker.

So called green groups that try to block GM crops and promote organic
farming methods as the answer to the world food problems simple don't
understand the basics of agriculture.

Gordon
"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
...
TITLE: The Heartland Wrestles With Biotechnology
SOURCE: The Washington Post, USA, by Justin Gillis

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2003Apr21.html
DATE: Apr 22, 2003

The Heartland Wrestles With Biotechnology

By no means does the opposition movement command unanimous allegiance
in farm country -- the issue has split farmers, farm organizations and
legislatures in at least four states and two Canadian provinces, with
the pro-biotech side plausibly claiming majority support among farmers
in most of those places.

But the strength of the opposition has provoked a rollicking debate.
Roundup Ready wheat is emerging as a key test of whether the
biotechnology industry can take charge of the destiny of a major crop
used primarily as food, something it has yet to accomplish despite
successes in other crops.

On Tue, 29 Apr 2003 19:05:57 GMT, "David Kendra"
wrote:

Another major concern from farmers that I have spoken to is the fact that
another major crop with RR technology will interfer with weed control
strategies. They already hve RR soybeans and corn so why add aother major
crop? I for one hope RR wheat is not commercialized.

Assuming RR wheat were commercialised, and a farmer found it to
interfering with his weed control strategy, couldn't it be held
against him, that he was misusing the technology? I mean, for this
concern to truly hold water, it would have to be the case that RR
technology in wheat necessarily would interfere with weed control
strategies, that there is no room for it to be used as just another
tool.

"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 29 Apr 2003 19:05:57 GMT, "David Kendra"
wrote:

Another major concern from farmers that I have spoken to is the fact that
another major crop with RR technology will interfer with weed control
strategies. They already hve RR soybeans and corn so why add aother
major
crop? I for one hope RR wheat is not commercialized.

Assuming RR wheat were commercialised, and a farmer found it to
interfering with his weed control strategy, couldn't it be held
against him, that he was misusing the technology? I mean, for this
concern to truly hold water, it would have to be the case that RR
technology in wheat necessarily would interfere with weed control
strategies, that there is no room for it to be used as just another
tool.

Rememeber there is no what to keep seed truely seprate. Combines will get in
the wrong feild, fail to be cleaned out properly or some one at the seed
cleaning plant will get the seed mixed up. There are people involed in every
step of the system that can and do make mistakes. Combines will scatter if
from feild to feild.

It is not by any means uncommon to see where a bag of the wrong kind of
wheat seed got planted in a feild at harvest.

We use wheat as a cover crop for no till Round Up Ready cotton. Some stray
RR wheat would cause an extra spraying or mixing another herbicide in the
mix. unless it was major mix up such as a bag of RR wheat it should not be
an economic probelm the first year if it was just left alone It would use
mositure in the spots it still lived but unless they were thick they
wouldn't be an economic problem. Any number of cheimcals other than round up
will kill wheat.

Most of those problems can be over come by using somtheing other than round
up to kill the wheat except where you are trying to kill in in a RR crop. In
cotton we could add several things that should kill wheat and not hurt
cotton.

I don't think RR wheat has the market RR cotton an beans have. It has a
market where cheat grass, wild oats and a few other weed that can't be
killed in wheat by today's herbicides. But the tech fee will limit it to
those situation. That is still a good market because there are a large
number of acres of wheat and cheat and wild oats are a big problems. But 2
or 3 years of RR wheat should clean up a cheat problem. I don't know how
long it takes to clean up wild oats. I never got it done.

I may be wrong at there be a bigger market than I think there is for RR
wheat. While I see it as necessary for no till wheat I don't see necessary
every year as it is with row crops because you don't have the same kinds of
weed problems. There are many less weed that herbicides can't sort out
between the crop and weed in wheat. In wheat you know what kind of chronic
weed problems you are going to have and have 2-4-D to use for broad leaf
problems that crop up in the spring.

Gordon

"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 28 Apr 2003 00:34:05 -0500, "Gordon Couger"
wrote:
Before RR cotton and beans there was no such thing as no till cotton or
beans.

On Tue, 29 Apr 2003 06:24:39 -0500, "Gordon Couger"
wrote:
How many times do I have to tell you I am talking about no till farming
not
no till crops

Bwahahahahahahaha

Tillage Survey News Release 1995-1996, and still no RR beans in sight:
"Farmers planted an additional 2.2 million acres of no-till soybeans
this year, compared to 1994. No-till soybean acres now account for 30
percent of all soybean acres planted in the U.S."

That's a no till crop not no till farming on a long term basis over a period
of years if you can't see the difference you don't have any business
discussing agriculture.

Gordon

On Tue, 29 Apr 2003 15:46:09 -0500, "Gordon Couger"
wrote:
"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
Tillage Survey News Release 1995-1996, and still no RR beans in sight:
No-till soybean acres now account for 30 percent of all soybean acres
planted in the U.S."

That's a no till crop not no till farming on a long term basis over a period
of years

Right on! No till beans is a crop, not a farming system:

On Mon, 28 Apr 2003 00:34:05 -0500, "Gordon Couger":
Before RR cotton and beans there was no such thing as no till
cotton or beans.

:-)

On Tue, 29 Apr 2003 15:43:52 -0500, "Gordon Couger"
wrote:


"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 29 Apr 2003 19:05:57 GMT, "David Kendra"
wrote:

Another major concern from farmers that I have spoken to is the fact that
another major crop with RR technology will interfer with weed control
strategies. They already hve RR soybeans and corn so why add aother
major crop? I for one hope RR wheat is not commercialized.

Assuming RR wheat were commercialised, and a farmer found it to
interfering with his weed control strategy, couldn't it be held
against him, that he was misusing the technology? I mean, for this
concern to truly hold water, it would have to be the case that RR
technology in wheat necessarily would interfere with weed control
strategies, that there is no room for it to be used as just another
tool.

Rememeber there is no what to keep seed truely seprate. Combines will get in
the wrong feild, fail to be cleaned out properly or some one at the seed
cleaning plant will get the seed mixed up. There are people involed in every
step of the system that can and do make mistakes. Combines will scatter if
from feild to feild.

And vice versa, with other RR crops. I guess in a perverse way, each
extra RR crop could be said to limit the utility of the existing.

It is not by any means uncommon to see where a bag of the wrong kind of
wheat seed got planted in a feild at harvest.

We use wheat as a cover crop for no till Round Up Ready cotton. Some stray
RR wheat would cause an extra spraying or mixing another herbicide in the
mix. unless it was major mix up such as a bag of RR wheat it should not be
an economic probelm the first year if it was just left alone It would use
mositure in the spots it still lived but unless they were thick they
wouldn't be an economic problem. Any number of cheimcals other than round up
will kill wheat.

I think the RR wheat that is kinda stuck in your pipeline would be
S.wheat, as you know we do not do that very much over here. It would
be a certain sales flop :-)

Speaking our W.wheat, Roundup has already found a huge niche in the
stubble field. RR W.wheat would seem a bit misplaced, it would mean
Roundup should shift to being used during the growth season when it
could act out to the utmost its potential for environmental damage to
non target plants and trees -- and that some other herbicide, maybe
not as benign would need to take it's place in the stubbles. Perhaps
not a very good idea.

Most of those problems can be over come by using somtheing other than round
up to kill the wheat except where you are trying to kill in in a RR crop. In
cotton we could add several things that should kill wheat and not hurt
cotton.

I don't think RR wheat has the market RR cotton an beans have. It has a
market where cheat grass, wild oats and a few other weed that can't be
killed in wheat by today's herbicides. But the tech fee will limit it to
those situation. That is still a good market because there are a large
number of acres of wheat and cheat and wild oats are a big problems. But 2
or 3 years of RR wheat should clean up a cheat problem. I don't know how
long it takes to clean up wild oats. I never got it done.

I may be wrong at there be a bigger market than I think there is for RR
wheat. While I see it as necessary for no till wheat I don't see necessary
every year as it is with row crops because you don't have the same kinds of
weed problems. There are many less weed that herbicides can't sort out
between the crop and weed in wheat. In wheat you know what kind of chronic
weed problems you are going to have and have 2-4-D to use for broad leaf
problems that crop up in the spring.

Well, 2,4-D is long banned over here, but there are of course other
options for broad leaf control. True, it would likely be the ease of
grass weed control, which might give some attraction to RR wheat.