Greetings,

I was wondering if some of the Maryland rose folks could chime in...
what has your experience with English roses in MD? I have tried Graham
Thomas, but he died back to the root stock, unfortunately, and he was
pretty spindly before that. Anyway, any suggestions? I love the
English-type roses, especially the "Shakespeare" line.

-Andrea

I was wondering if some of the Maryland rose folks could chime in...
what has your experience with English roses in MD?

Hi Andrea,

I have had no luck with any but Paul Bocuse, if that counts! I am on the
Eastern Shore of MD, and the rain and damp caused balling of anything with
"English" type blooms.

And botrytis seems to pick on them first, possibly due to the tight and
messy nature of the blooms.

I have one more, I forget which one of J&P's Englsih roses, that had better
start putting out this summer, or be yanked out in favor of one of the more
reliable varieties.


Scopata Fuori

Andrea Reed wrote:

Greetings,

I was wondering if some of the Maryland rose folks could chime in...
what has your experience with English roses in MD? I have tried Graham
Thomas, but he died back to the root stock, unfortunately, and he was
pretty spindly before that. Anyway, any suggestions? I love the
English-type roses, especially the "Shakespeare" line.

How long did you grow Graham? These roses apparently take some time to get
established. HOWEVER--even David Austin recommends planting them in threes-
-I suspect because they sort of prop one another up. If you love these
roses--and I do--you have to "take the good with the bad," as one man used
to say. Big blooms often mean nodding heads--especially on young plants.
My oldest Austins are about 4 now, and are much less spindley. I am
growing in NC, but know many folks who grow them in MD. They ought to be
less spindley up there. One other thing--are you growing them in full sun?
And giving them three years to prove themselves? I try to give all my
roses three years, unless they commit the crime of being both prolific and
terribly ugly, bloom wise.



-Andrea

Shiva wrote:
Andrea Reed wrote:

I was wondering if some of the Maryland rose folks could chime in...
what has your experience with English roses in MD? I have tried Graham
Thomas, but he died back to the root stock, unfortunately, and he was
pretty spindly before that. Anyway, any suggestions? I love the
English-type roses, especially the "Shakespeare" line.

How long did you grow Graham? These roses apparently take some time to get
established. HOWEVER--even David Austin recommends planting them in threes-
-I suspect because they sort of prop one another up. If you love these
roses--and I do--you have to "take the good with the bad," as one man used
to say. Big blooms often mean nodding heads--especially on young plants.
My oldest Austins are about 4 now, and are much less spindly. I am
growing in NC, but know many folks who grow them in MD. They ought to be
less spindly up there. One other thing--are you growing them in full sun?
And giving them three years to prove themselves? I try to give all my
roses three years, unless they commit the crime of being both prolific and
terribly ugly, bloom wise.

I have to agree with this. I have Graham Thomas and Mary Rose, both
given to me in 1996 by a neighbor who wanted something else. They both
bloom quite heavily.

Graham Thomas, in particular, needs support and growing this in a group
of three would be a good idea. In his book "Old Roses and English
Roses," David Austin says, "If we look for faults we might say that the
growth is a little too upright and narrow at the base, although it is
quite bushy and, as Graham Thomas himself asks: 'Too upright for what?'"
He goes on to say it grows to four feet but that he has received a
report from South Africa that it grows to 10 feet there but that he has
not received similar reports from other countries. I'm in Gaithersburg,
Maryland and it is easily over 8 feet and closer to 10 here. I would
say, also, that the fragrance is not as strong as some descriptions
have it, particularly as the flowers age and the flowers don't last as
well as some.

Mary Rose, to me, is quite nice although mine suffers badly from
blackspot and would undoubtedly do better in a sunnier location. It
gives a very impressive first flush and then occasional flowers
throughout the rest of the summer. Not much fragrance.

I also have Bibi Maizoon (since 1998). Last year was really the first
great year for this rose. The first two years I had to protect the
plant from something that was eating the new stems (a fence of hardware
cloth) but now it seems able to hold its own. I love the flowers on
this, although they tend to droop because the stems are not up to the
weight of the blooms. They are beautiful and have a wonderful
fragrance. It took some time to get going but was definitely worth the
wait.

All three of these have done well with the winters here. Of course, we
haven't had the most severe cold over the past few years. Today, it's
snowing with an inch and a half on the ground already and the
thermometer at 31 degrees F!

--
Henry Hartley

Henry wrote:

[...]as Graham Thomas himself asks: 'Too upright for what?'"

That's really funny! I had not noticed such wit in my Austin books, I'll
have to revisit!


He goes on to say it grows to four feet but that he has received a
report from South Africa that it grows to 10 feet there but that he has
not received similar reports from other countries. I'm in Gaithersburg,
Maryland and it is easily over 8 feet and closer to 10 here. I would
say, also, that the fragrance is not as strong as some descriptions
have it, particularly as the flowers age and the flowers don't last as
well as some.

Henry, I chose Golden Celebration instead of Graham Thomas, mostly because
it won a fragrance award, or so I hear. Your description of GT's fragrance
makes me think I made the right decision. I really want fragrance in my
roses. Do you grow GC? Someone told me it is smaller than GT, too, but I
have since heard otherwise. Mine are ownroot babies from Muncy's Rose
Emporium, just planted last fall.




Mary Rose, to me, is quite nice although mine suffers badly from
blackspot and would undoubtedly do better in a sunnier location. It
gives a very impressive first flush and then occasional flowers
throughout the rest of the summer. Not much fragrance.


Ken sent me this by mistake then I killed it by mistake. I got to see one
bloom, though, and it was really nice for a pink rose.



I also have Bibi Maizoon (since 1998). [...]I love the flowers on
this, although they tend to droop because the stems are not up to the
weight of the blooms. They are beautiful and have a wonderful
fragrance. It took some time to get going but was definitely worth the
wait.


Oh yes, you are an Austin man! I think the big blooms and the fragrance
are what get those of us who love them. But all roses have some negative
qualities, don't they?

All three of these have done well with the winters here. Of course, we
haven't had the most severe cold over the past few years. Today, it's
snowing with an inch and a half on the ground already and the
thermometer at 31 degrees F!

I am sorry you got a late snow and hope all your roses survive it alright.



--
Henry Hartley

Shiva wrote:
Henry wrote:

Henry, I chose Golden Celebration instead of Graham Thomas, mostly because
it won a fragrance award, or so I hear. Your description of GT's fragrance
makes me think I made the right decision. I really want fragrance in my
roses. Do you grow GC? Someone told me it is smaller than GT, too, but I
have since heard otherwise. Mine are ownroot babies from Muncy's Rose
Emporium, just planted last fall.

Golden Celebration sounds like a good choice. GT was given to me and I
wasn't about to turn it down. The yellow of GT is probably purer than
GC, which seem a little darker and with a hint of apricot, based on
pictures I've seen. It's also nice to have a really tall rose for some
situations. The fragrance of GT is certainly there, particularly when
they first open. It's just not comparable to other roses I have, like
Sombreuil or Blanc Double de Coubert. And although I have some roses
with little or no fragrance (like Linda Campbell), I've decided there
are enough with good fragrance that I'm unlikely to buy roses any more
without it.

I also have Bibi Maizoon (since 1998). [...]I love the flowers on
this, although they tend to droop because the stems are not up to the
weight of the blooms. They are beautiful and have a wonderful
fragrance. It took some time to get going but was definitely worth the
wait.

Oh yes, you are an Austin man! I think the big blooms and the fragrance
are what get those of us who love them. But all roses have some negative
qualities, don't they?

No question.

All three of these have done well with the winters here. Of course, we
haven't had the most severe cold over the past few years. Today, it's
snowing with an inch and a half on the ground already and the
thermometer at 31 degrees F!


I am sorry you got a late snow and hope all your roses survive it alright.

It's back up to 40 and it looks like no damage was done. All new leaves
and leaf buds present and accounted for. Even the Camelia flower buds
look okay. Thanks.

--
Henry

On Mon, 31 Mar 2003 13:27:16 -0500, Henry
wrote:

Golden Celebration sounds like a good choice. GT was given to me and I
wasn't about to turn it down. The yellow of GT is probably purer than
GC, which seem a little darker and with a hint of apricot, based on
pictures I've seen.

Sounds perfect for my taste. I may love yellow blends best of all. One
Austin I can recommend to you with no qualms at all is Jude the
Obscure. Great rose! Very cupped blooms, so you have to like that
form. But wonderful fragrance--citrusy. Apricot in color.


[...]
I've decided there
are enough with good fragrance that I'm unlikely to buy roses any more
without it.

Right with you. I understand that many don't care about fragrance, but
I do and its my garden.--my back getting broken digging the holes and
shoveling the dirt and weeding!

One other recommendation, with the warning that the blooms do shatter
fast--Scentimental. Fragrant and each bloom is different.
Burgundy/wine and white, stripes. Love this rose! It has a floppy old
rose form, too. Henry, I hope you will post some photos of your
gardens and roses!

Henry Hartley wrote:


That's a new one to me but it looks very nice. I do like that form and
color. I kind of like the name, too. Named for a Thomas Hardy novel,
if memory serves.

Yes, it is! This is an interesting rose because it is a color I would call
butterscotch most of the time, but it runs the gamut from that shade back
to pale yellow and up to what is almost a blush color. Really subtle
gradations of color differences day to day. Very vigorous on its own roots.


[about Scentimental]

I've never been crazy about striped roses. Perhaps it's time I tried
one. The pictures I've found of this vary. I've seen white with pure
red, orange-red, violet-purple, and burgundy. How red is the red? Or
does it vary?

I would call it clear cranberry and white--snowy white, no cream or yellow
at all. I love the colors--to me it looks less striped than, perhaps,
brushed with color. It is the first rose I bought three of. It is the
scent and the old fashioned, loose form, PLUS the each-bloom-is-
differentness. But it blows faster than any bloom I've ever seen, so yuo
have to really love it and look hard when blooms first open or you might
miss them!


I've got photos of my garden but need to go back and find them and get
some scanned. On the other hand, I finally got on the bandwagor and
ordered a digital camera. It is supposed to arrive tomorrow. So, this
year I should have lots of photos. Stay tuned.

Whoa! What did you get? I am thinking about a Canon, but am still looking
into it.



--
Henry

Shiva wrote:
Henry Hartley wrote:

I've got photos of my garden but need to go back and find them and get
some scanned. On the other hand, I finally got on the bandwagon and
ordered a digital camera. It is supposed to arrive tomorrow. So, this
year I should have lots of photos. Stay tuned.

Whoa! What did you get? I am thinking about a Canon, but am still looking
into it.

Well, photography is my number one hobby, followed by gardening so I
have been waiting for an appropriately priced digital SLR. I've had
Canon equipment since 1980 and I got into the autofocus world a few
years ago with a used Canon Rebel so I've been watching Canon closely.
When the D60 came out I felt like my time had finally come but at $2,200
it was still a bit too much for me. They have now replaced that with
the D10 which has a few improvements but mainly is priced at $1,500.
Still a lot but I've taken the plunge. It's a complicated piece of
equipment and is fairly heavy but hey... If you are a wide angle fan
(like me) you'll wish you had an image sensor as large as 35mm film but
if you like telephoto, you'll be in heaven (multiply focal length by
1.6). My 24 is now a 38. On the other hand, my 300 is now a 480!

So far there's not much to photograph in the yard. Snow Drops are done,
the bloodroot only bloomed for a day or two. I've got daffodils and
lots of green showing. Zepherine Drouhin is really putting on some
growth and I'm looking forward to having it on an arbor over my front
walk this spring. I've taken pictures but not really worth sharing,
more "before" pictures to pair with the "after" shots taken in a month
or two. Once I have something I'll let you know.

--
Henry

Andrea Reed wrote:
Greetings,

I was wondering if some of the Maryland rose folks could chime in...
what has your experience with English roses in MD? I have tried Graham
Thomas, but he died back to the root stock, unfortunately, and he was
pretty spindly before that. Anyway, any suggestions? I love the
English-type roses, especially the "Shakespeare" line.

-Andrea


Hi, I'm chiming in late. Where in MD are you? I'm in North Potomac,
but I used to live in Calvert County. In CC, I grew LD Braithwaite,
Dark Lady, Katherine Morley and three others whose names I can't
remember. Of all of them I've grown, I'd only consider LD Braithwaite
again. The growth of all but LD Braithwaite was very spindly and
unattractive

I am getting Graham Thomas this year, and I have Tamora on my short
list. These two roses come very well recommended and that's the only
reason I'm considering them. Since I didn't like the growth habit of 5
of the 6 I had, I won't be looking at Austins again for a while.

Kate Kaercher wrote:

I am getting Graham Thomas this year, and I have Tamora on my short
list. These two roses come very well recommended and that's the only
reason I'm considering them. Since I didn't like the growth habit of 5
of the 6 I had, I won't be looking at Austins again for a while.

I'm close by (Gaithersburg). My Graham Thomas is very tall and not
particularly dense. It could do with a bit more sun. If you have a
good bit of space, I'd recommend planting a group of them together,
perhaps two feet apart in a triangle. Then treat it like one large
shrub. The color is wonderful, the fragrance is nice early and then
seems to fade. (I wonder if that's a factor of the amount of sun,
also?) Not a small rose.

Personally, I like Austin's roses. Some take a few years to get really
set but I think they are pretty once established.

--
Henry

Henry wrote:

I'm close by (Gaithersburg). My Graham Thomas is very tall and not
particularly dense. It could do with a bit more sun. If you have a
good bit of space, I'd recommend planting a group of them together,
perhaps two feet apart in a triangle. Then treat it like one large
shrub. The color is wonderful, the fragrance is nice early and then
seems to fade. (I wonder if that's a factor of the amount of sun,
also?) Not a small rose.

Well, hello, to a fellow Marylander. Thanks for the advice re Graham
Thomas, but IMHO, a rose should be able to stand on its own merit. If
I'm buying more than one GT, that's fewer different roses that I'm able
to buy. And it's more $$ in David Austin's pocket so he doesn't have to
breed roses that can stand on their own.

Personally, I like Austin's roses. Some take a few years to get really
set but I think they are pretty once established.

I did like my LD Braithwaite's, and I'm looking forward to GT. David
Austin just needs to have a decent enough rose to grab my atterntion.

BTW - where in G'burg are you?

On Thu, 24 Apr 2003 01:17:59 -0400, Kate Kaercher
wrote:



Well, hello, to a fellow Marylander. Thanks for the advice re Graham
Thomas, but IMHO, a rose should be able to stand on its own merit.

Ms. Kate. David Austin himself recommends that these roses be planted
in threes. I think their floppability factor is an unavoidable
byproduct of their great big beautiful many-petaled blooms. I mean,
the scent alone probly weighs a good six ounces, you know?

Meanwhile, I planted two hybrid tea bare roots in the same big hole.
Ever hear of that?

AND I am about to plant three Distant Drums together, and two Circus.
Why? Quicker gratification. When you come right down to it, many rose
look better faster planted in groups. I might plant them a foot apart.
Hell, I can always move them.


If
I'm buying more than one GT, that's fewer different roses that I'm able
to buy.

Oh puleeeze. You are clearly buying too many superfluous things. Like
food. G



And it's more $$ in David Austin's pocket so he doesn't have to
breed roses that can stand on their own.

Very prissy, Missy.

I have

Tamora--cute, cute, cute! 2 feet tall and wide! Many flowers!
Golden Celebration--young
Jude the Obscure--Suzannes, a monster bloom machine and delicious
Abraham Darby--young
The Squire--young
The Prince--young
Pat Austin--WORLDS apart, a really different Austin, love it!

all on their own roots from Muncy's or Michael's

I want:

Perdita
Evelyn


Nice to see you back.

Shiva wrote:
On Thu, 24 Apr 2003 01:17:59 -0400, Kate Kaercher
wrote:


Ms. Kate. David Austin himself recommends that these roses be planted
in threes. I think their floppability factor is an unavoidable
byproduct of their great big beautiful many-petaled blooms. I mean,
the scent alone probly weighs a good six ounces, you know?

Of course he recommends they be planted in 3s. More $ in his pocket.
The ones I had, except LD Braithwaite, did not really have big beautiful
blooms. One of them, probably Fair Bianca, .consistently got smaller
and smaller flowers as the summer progressed until at the end she was
like a mini

Meanwhile, I planted two hybrid tea bare roots in the same big hole.
Ever hear of that?

Yeah, and?

AND I am about to plant three Distant Drums together, and two Circus.
Why? Quicker gratification. When you come right down to it, many rose
look better faster planted in groups. I might plant them a foot apart.
Hell, I can always move them.

To each her own. BTW, I finally got my Mutabilis!


If
I'm buying more than one GT, that's fewer different roses that I'm able
to buy.


Oh puleeeze. You are clearly buying too many superfluous things. Like
food. G

If you only knew.


And it's more $$ in David Austin's pocket so he doesn't have to
breed roses that can stand on their own.


Very prissy, Missy.

What can I say? There are a lot of roses out there. I can bust my
budget and go bankrupt buying all the roses I want and still not get to
the Austins.

I have

Tamora--cute, cute, cute! 2 feet tall and wide! Many flowers!
want

Golden Celebration--young
not familiar

Jude the Obscure--Suzannes, a monster bloom machine and delicious
heard good things

Abraham Darby--young
ditto

The Squire--young
ditto

The Prince--young
ditto

Pat Austin--WORLDS apart, a really different Austin, love it!
ditto

all on their own roots from Muncy's or Michael's

I want:

Perdita
not familiar

Evelyn
my grandmother in law's name. Won't be getting it!


Nice to see you back.
Thanks.

Kate Kaercher wrote:


Of course he recommends they be planted in 3s. More $ in his pocket.
The ones I had, except LD Braithwaite, did not really have big beautiful
blooms. One of them, probably Fair Bianca, .consistently got smaller
and smaller flowers as the summer progressed until at the end she was
like a mini

I see. So you gave these roses, what, ONE YEAR to prove themselves? Maybe
two? And your cultivation methods were how crappy, since you are so busy
with life outside the garden? Please. As someone who is just now
experiencing what three and four year plants are like, I must say this to
you: horsehooey! Why don't you go get some Madame de Furriers de caca
roses and leave the Austins to those of us who love them. Tradescant just
bloomed for the first time this year, and MY GOD. Truly a deep wine color,
rosy, rosy, "now THAT'S what a rose should smell like!" fragrance, and
that odd, furry sheen the most velvety roses have. A masterpiece. I am
buying more.


Meanwhile, I planted two hybrid tea bare roots in the same big hole.
Ever hear of that?

Yeah, and?

And they look great. Blue Nile. Another Tragic Diva-- times two.



To each her own. BTW, I finally got my Mutabilis!

Oh, man. You are going to love this rose. Or, maybe not. We have different
taste in roses.