--

"Derek Broughton" wrote in message
...
Janet wrote:

You're 100 % correct MC, koi are not goldfish and vice versa. Koi
absolutely do not do well in water under about 40 degrees.

No doubt, they're not the same, but they're very closely related and they
both really do just fine in water between 32 and 40F. Weather was never
my
problem, herons were.
--
derek

Derek, it may be possible that goldfish and wild carp are closely related
but not koi. Most of the vigor has been bred out of koi over the last
couple of thousand years. Koi are raised in mud ponds in Japan but they
don't spend the winters in them. They are brought into heated koi houses
that are greenhouses... Post some of these theories on some of the koi
forums with koikichi's in residence and they will quickly debunk the
theories and myths point by point...
Janet in sunny Niagara Falls

Responses in post...

--

"George" wrote in message
. ..

"Janet" wrote in message
...
You're 100 % correct MC, koi are not goldfish and vice versa. Koi
absolutely do not do well in water under about 40 degrees. They may make
it but it can be a real struggle in the spring as in their weakened state
they are very suseptable to parasites and bacterial infections...
Janet in cloudy Niagara Falls


http://www.aquariumpharm.com/article...-wintering.asp
The metabolism of koi and goldfish is controlled primarily by water
temperature. As the water cools, pond fish require less protein in their
diet. When koi and goldfish are fed high-protein food in cool water, the
excess protein is excreted as ammonia from the gills. The microscopic
organisms that make up the biological filter (and consume ammonia) also
slow down in cooler water. Improper seasonal feeding can lead to a
build-up of toxic ammonia, which stresses fish and reduces their winter
survivability. When the water temperature drops to approximately 65° F,
start feeding with Spring & Autumn Pond Food. This type of fish food is
better suited for the dietary requirements of pond fish in cool water and
won't pollute the water with excess ammonia. Some water gardeners continue
to feed their fish until they no longer come to the surface. I stop
feeding my pond fish when the water falls below 42° F.

There is no need to worry about "frozen fish" if a section of the pond is
at least 18 inches deep. Pond fish will seek the deepest part of the pond
and over-winter there until the water warms in the spring. If your pond is
less than 18 inches deep, the fish may freeze during a harsh winter.

This *may* be true in some areas but definitely not true in zones 4-7
without heating the pond!


Check with your local
pond supplier if you live in an area with harsh winters.

This is almost too funny to actually respond to, most pond stores know
absolutely nothing about actually keeping fish, let alone koi or what it
takes to have a proper koi pond..sigh...


Water gardeners with
shallow ponds can keep their koi and goldfish in kiddie pools or aquariums
set up in a cool basement or garage. All that is required is an aquarium
air pump or small fountain to provide oxygenation.

What about filtration???? There is a reason koi are nicknamed pond pigs.


The fish are fed infrequently, if at all,
depending on the water temperature. pH, ammonia and nitrite should be
monitored weekly, especially if the fish are fed. Small water changes
(20%) each month will keep the water in good shape until spring. Koi are
"jumpers"-so be sure to cover the pool with bird netting!

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/PondSubWe...dmaintwint.htm

Fishes: Koi, goldfish, natives and other cold-water fishes may over-winter
in your system; providing that some of the surface

area does not freeze over completely. If your fishes are fat and healthy
in the fall, their metabolisms will be depressed enough accordingly to
prevent mortality. The rule with dealing with livestock especially during
the winter is the less disturbed the better. Instances of high mortalities
are almost always attributable to poor design, overcrowding or inadequate
cleaning before the cold season; or handling them after.

Livestock should not be fed below a temperature of 50 degrees F.; The fish
may seem interested and eat, but be unableto use the food and consequently
the water will be fouled. Partial water changes should be of small volume,
if any, infrequent and literally dripped refilled.

We know that the term "hibernation" is no longer true in regards to koi...

Prior to cold water hibernation your
fish(es) should have been well fed, checked for disease and disinfected if
necessary.

Here is a link to some folks who overwinter their koi in Ontario:

http://backyardpuddle.aaquaria.com/season.html



This my absolutely favourite part.... I happen to know these folks from a
respectable koi forum. She's actually quite amused that you would try to use
their site to support keeping koi in an unheated pond, especially because
that pond in the pics is a 24 inch watergarden, not a koi pond. They bring
their fish in for the winter. She is now adding information to that site so
that their position on this issue will be clear to all who view that site. I
would suggest though that the Canadian koi keepers check out the link page
on that site for their commercial site, it's one of the best (if not only!)
for some speciality items in Canada.

MC, come over the http://www.koiphen.com and ask your questions about
keeping your koi outside over the winter. Personally I don't think they will
do well if they happen to make it through. 30 inches isn't deep enough for
zone 5. I won't even get into the 6 koi in 500 gallons, I think you already
know that is far from an ideal situation for koi. The folks from the website
George posted above post there as well as several very knowlegable
koikichi's. Most are heading off to Japan shortly for the fall harvest so
talk to them before they go. )

Janet in sunny Niagara Falls

"MC" wrote in message
om...
After much research, I've decided to use solar bubble wrap pool
cover
floated on the top of my pond and a titanium tube-style heater. The
pool cover will have a border of about an inch to allow gases to
escape. My questions a

1) How do you use one of these acquarium-type heaters? I would
imagine
it would burn the pond liner if I just throw it in there. If I
suspend
it, I would be concerned of it getting knocked loose. Do I need a
wire/mesh case to keep the fish from burning themselves?

2) I've read bio filters are useless below 50 degree. So I won't run
it. Is it better to remove it from the pond, or just leave it? I
anticipate the heater will keep my pond around 40. I don't intend on
"heating" it, just keeping it from freezing solid.



FYI: I am in zone 5, 500 gallons, 30" deep, 6 Koi

"2pods" wrote in message
...

"Bill Stock" wrote in message
...

What I need help on is how do I over winter my Water Lettuce, my
Marginal
and Bog plants. I know to put my Lilly's in the deepest part of the
pond.
The others I will bring onto the house but don't know how to go about
doing
this?

I'm going to try my water lettuce in my fish tank, I just wish I'd got
it
before my water hyacynth gave up the ghost

Peter


Where are you located Peter?

I brought my Water Hyacinth inside today and it doesn't look too bad.
Also
brought the Hornwort inside, boy did it do well in the pond. I'm in
Toronto
BTW.

Damn bird netting isn't keeping the leaves out though. Time for Plan B.


Unfortunately I'm in Scotland.
My water hyacinth has long gone :-(

My netting is the same, though I saw really fine netting at the local
garden
centre last weekend which looks as if it might be better.

What's Plan B, and should we be worried ;-) ?

It involves a plasma weapon and the neighbour's small leaved tree.

Or maybe I'll just build a frame (5x9) and cover it with window screen.



Peter

"Bill Stock" wrote in message
...

"2pods" wrote in message
...

What's Plan B, and should we be worried ;-) ?

It involves a plasma weapon and the neighbour's small leaved tree.

Or maybe I'll just build a frame (5x9) and cover it with window screen.

can I have the plasma weapon ?
We already have the neighbour's tree ;-

Peter

Janet wrote:

"Derek Broughton" wrote in message
...
Janet wrote:

You're 100 % correct MC, koi are not goldfish and vice versa. Koi
absolutely do not do well in water under about 40 degrees.

No doubt, they're not the same, but they're very closely related and they
both really do just fine in water between 32 and 40F.**Weather*was*never
my
problem, herons were.

Derek, it may be possible that goldfish and wild carp are closely related
but**not*koi.*

Check your facts. Koi _are_ carp.

Most*of*the*vigor*has*been*bred*out*of*koi*over*th e*last
couple of thousand years. Koi are raised in mud ponds in Japan but they
don't spend the winters in them. They are brought into heated koi houses
that are greenhouses...**Post*some*of*these*theories*on*som e*of*the*koi
forums with koikichi's in residence and they will quickly debunk the
theories and myths point by point...

Which _theories_? I've cited two facts no koikichi could argue with. Koi
are closely related to goldfish (I'd even say those carefully bred Japanese
koi are a lot more hardy than the carefully bred Chinese goldfish, but that
can be safely classed as a theory). They can even interbreed (and produce
sterile offspring - an indication of the closeness of the relationship).
And, Koi _can_ do fine in water under 40F. I kept koi in an unheated pond
in zone 6 for years. Admittedly, it was 5' deep at its deepest and I would
hesitate to suggest an 18" deep pond in zone 5. I also never owned
expensive koi - I wouldn't risk them through an Ontario winter, either.

It's true that you have to be careful with them in the spring as the water
warms up and the fishes immune systems are slow to react - but that problem
exists between 40 & 50F too.
--
derek

Janet wrote:

"Derek Broughton" wrote in message
...
Janet wrote:

You're 100 % correct MC, koi are not goldfish and vice versa. Koi
absolutely do not do well in water under about 40 degrees.

No doubt, they're not the same, but they're very closely related and they
both really do just fine in water between 32 and 40F.**Weather*was*never
my
problem, herons were.

Derek, it may be possible that goldfish and wild carp are closely related
but**not*koi.*

Check your facts. Koi _are_ carp.

Most*of*the*vigor*has*been*bred*out*of*koi*over*th e*last
couple of thousand years. Koi are raised in mud ponds in Japan but they
don't spend the winters in them. They are brought into heated koi houses
that are greenhouses...**Post*some*of*these*theories*on*som e*of*the*koi
forums with koikichi's in residence and they will quickly debunk the
theories and myths point by point...

Which _theories_? I've cited two facts no koikichi could argue with. Koi
are closely related to goldfish (I'd even say those carefully bred Japanese
koi are a lot more hardy than the carefully bred Chinese goldfish, but that
can be safely classed as a theory). They can even interbreed (and produce
sterile offspring - an indication of the closeness of the relationship).
And, Koi _can_ do fine in water under 40F. I kept koi in an unheated pond
in zone 6 for years. Admittedly, it was 5' deep at its deepest and I would
hesitate to suggest an 18" deep pond in zone 5. I also never owned
expensive koi - I wouldn't risk them through an Ontario winter, either.

It's true that you have to be careful with them in the spring as the water
warms up and the fishes immune systems are slow to react - but that problem
exists between 40 & 50F too.
--
derek

YES!!! that is when fish really get into trouble.
I also think 6 months of cold and no food is just too excessive for zone 5 and
colder. Ingrid

"RichToyBox" wrote:
I don't like the cycling up and down.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

YES!!! that is when fish really get into trouble.
I also think 6 months of cold and no food is just too excessive for zone 5 and
colder. Ingrid

"RichToyBox" wrote:
I don't like the cycling up and down.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

--

"Derek Broughton" wrote in message
...
Janet wrote:

"Derek Broughton" wrote in message
...
Janet wrote:

You're 100 % correct MC, koi are not goldfish and vice versa. Koi
absolutely do not do well in water under about 40 degrees.

No doubt, they're not the same, but they're very closely related and
they
both really do just fine in water between 32 and 40F. Weather was never
my
problem, herons were.

Derek, it may be possible that goldfish and wild carp are closely related
but not koi.

Check your facts. Koi _are_ carp.

Yes Derek, koi are carp but they definitely are not wild carp...sigh...

Most of the vigor has been bred out of koi over the last
couple of thousand years. Koi are raised in mud ponds in Japan but they
don't spend the winters in them. They are brought into heated koi houses
that are greenhouses... Post some of these theories on some of the koi
forums with koikichi's in residence and they will quickly debunk the
theories and myths point by point...

Which _theories_? I've cited two facts no koikichi could argue with. Koi
are closely related to goldfish (I'd even say those carefully bred
Japanese
koi are a lot more hardy than the carefully bred Chinese goldfish, but
that
can be safely classed as a theory).

Any self respecting koikichi will tell you that koi are not closely related
to goldfish....

They can even interbreed (and produce
sterile offspring - an indication of the closeness of the relationship).
And, Koi _can_ do fine in water under 40F.

Any koikichi will tell you there is a huge difference between koi making it
though a winter in an unheated pond and koi doing well or even thriving over
the winter... Have you read any of Peter Waddington's work or Steve Childers
or any other of the really superb, well known koikichi's??? I have my copy
of koi2kichi coming, do you?


I kept koi in an unheated pond
in zone 6 for years. Admittedly, it was 5' deep at its deepest and I
would
hesitate to suggest an 18" deep pond in zone 5. I also never owned
expensive koi - I wouldn't risk them through an Ontario winter, either.

It's true that you have to be careful with them in the spring as the water
warms up and the fishes immune systems are slow to react - but that
problem
exists between 40 & 50F too.
--
derek

Janet in Niagara Falls

Thank You Ingrid!!!! I was waiting for you to wade into this one! ;o)
Janet in sunny Niagara Falls

--

wrote in message
...
YES!!! that is when fish really get into trouble.
I also think 6 months of cold and no food is just too excessive for zone 5
and
colder. Ingrid

"RichToyBox" wrote:
I don't like the cycling up and down.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

Janet wrote:

Any self respecting koikichi will tell you that koi are not closely
related to goldfish....

For heavens sake, then they'd be wrong. No amount of breeding changes the
relationship. See
http://www.itis.usda.gov/servlet/Sin...h_value=163342

Koi are "common carp", Cyprinus carpio
Goldfish are Carassius Auratus
Both belong to the family Cyprinidae

Any koikichi will tell you there is a huge difference between koi making
it though a winter in an unheated pond and koi doing well or even thriving
over the winter... Have you read any of Peter Waddington's work

Yes. It would all depend on how well you _want_ them to do. If I'm trying
to raise a show quality meter-long koi, I'd treat it a darn sight better
than if I am trying to keep half-a-dozen mutt koi. They thrived. They
didn't become beauties, and I'll freely admit they might not even have
looked quite as good in the spring as they did in the fall, but by June
they were in fine shape. There are people here who are raising
show-quality koi, and they have different needs, but most of us are just
keeping ponds.
--
derek

wrote:

I also think 6 months of cold and no food is just too excessive for zone 5
and
colder. Ingrid

But six months? I doubt even your climate is that bad. In zone 6, S.
Ontario, I had (usually) three months of real cold - ie, when there was any
amount of ice on the surface. Sometime in December (sometimes not 'til
January) until mid-March.
--
derek

wrote:

I also think 6 months of cold and no food is just too excessive for zone 5
and
colder. Ingrid

But six months? I doubt even your climate is that bad. In zone 6, S.
Ontario, I had (usually) three months of real cold - ie, when there was any
amount of ice on the surface. Sometime in December (sometimes not 'til
January) until mid-March.
--
derek

Water is a better insulater than air. That aside, I have an odd shaped
pond with ground on some sides and raised flower beds on another. This
would make a raised cover much more difficult than throwing a couple
of boards together to make a frame.

"RichToyBox" wrote in message news:2yH6d.47864$He1.25742@attbi_s01...
Having the cover suspended, but fully enclosing the pond area, creates a
dead air space above the pond. Still air is a good insulator. The solar
blanket is a good solar collector and does not have to be in contact with
the water to work. I use the solar blanket with two layers of poly sheeting
stretched over a lean-to of 2X4's and with heaters in the skimmer, I
maintain a temperature of 70 degrees most of the winter with a temperature
of about 62 as the low. Fish are fed every day, at least once. Filters are
functional year round.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html


"MC" wrote in message
om...
I thought the cover floating on the surface would help reatin heat at
night and add a lot of heat during the day as the pond gets almost
full sun. My concern is that if there is a big snow, it could take my
cover down to the bottom of the pond.

wrote in message
...
Yes. put something around the heater to keep it from touching the pond
liner. or,
suspend it from something over the pond.
I wouldnt recommend leaving the bubble wrap floating on the water. find
some way of
suspending it 4-5 inches over the top. and strong enough to hold snow.
you need an air pump and airstones to put oxygen into the water.
If you seal the bubble wrap up and over teh pond, then do use a bucket
filter with a
pump to keep moving the water and cleaning up the water during the
winter.
in your small pond the temp could stay well above 55oF most of the
winter. my 1600
gallon did all but one month. and I fed them a little bit every few days
all winter
too. Ingrid

(MC) wrote:
After much research, I've decided to use solar bubble wrap pool cover
floated on the top of my pond and a titanium tube-style heater. The
pool cover will have a border of about an inch to allow gases to
escape. My questions a

1) How do you use one of these acquarium-type heaters? I would imagine
it would burn the pond liner if I just throw it in there. If I suspend
it, I would be concerned of it getting knocked loose. Do I need a
wire/mesh case to keep the fish from burning themselves?

2) I've read bio filters are useless below 50 degree. So I won't run
it. Is it better to remove it from the pond, or just leave it? I
anticipate the heater will keep my pond around 40. I don't intend on
"heating" it, just keeping it from freezing solid.



FYI: I am in zone 5, 500 gallons, 30" deep, 6 Koi



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

MC wrote:

Water is a better insulater than air.

Er, 'fraid not. Consider - how long do you think you could survive
outdoors, minimally clothed, at 0C/32F? We have it happen often enough
that we know most people will survive overnight. They usually end up in
hospital for hypothermia, but they survive. Now consider how long you will
survive in the ocean at that temperature - 10 to 30 minutes would be about
right. Last week we had somebody die near here who was in the water for
less than that, and it's about 5C right now.

Water's a good conductor, ice less so, and snow is a pretty good insulator
(better than air).
--
derek