have you called Jo Ann and talked it over with her? Ingrid

~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:
Update: 2nd fish was put down after found floating on side still breathing,
it would have been a major miracle if it had lived anyway. Another victim,
with small ulcers, has been pulled from pond, hopefully at an earlier stage
to rescue.

This one was also scraped for a microscope slide, behind gill, vent and
just before the tail, nothing found.

If anyone is thinking of using Tricide Neo, talk to me. I've tried several
methods as described on Dr.J's website, so I'm somewhat experienced on the
good, ugly & scaley of the methods listed. ~ jan

Koi Ponds total size: 1,500 gallons 1995
Koi: 17 this spring, sold 2 early on,but not soon enough, 2 sick and out of
pond one of which is now deceased. 1st case of illness I've every had, as I
failed to lower the stocking rate soon enough as koi grew. (

Lilypond: 1,000 gallons
Fancy Goldfish: 5 only (that may all be female) w/a few tadpoles left.
~ jan

See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website


See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

Jan,

There are other causes of ulcers besides parasites. Scrapes and scratches
gotten during spawning can become very bad ulcers. Do you use KoiZyme. I
have not had to use injectables on but two fish in the last 4 or 5 years
since I started with the KoiZyme. It doesn't do anything for the parasites,
but it sure keeps the fish from having the bacterial infections.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html


"~ jan JJsPond.us" wrote in message
...
Update: 2nd fish was put down after found floating on side still
breathing,
it would have been a major miracle if it had lived anyway. Another victim,
with small ulcers, has been pulled from pond, hopefully at an earlier
stage
to rescue.

This one was also scraped for a microscope slide, behind gill, vent and
just before the tail, nothing found.

If anyone is thinking of using Tricide Neo, talk to me. I've tried several
methods as described on Dr.J's website, so I'm somewhat experienced on the
good, ugly & scaley of the methods listed. ~ jan

Koi Ponds total size: 1,500 gallons 1995
Koi: 17 this spring, sold 2 early on,but not soon enough, 2 sick and out
of
pond one of which is now deceased. 1st case of illness I've every had, as
I
failed to lower the stocking rate soon enough as koi grew. (

Lilypond: 1,000 gallons
Fancy Goldfish: 5 only (that may all be female) w/a few tadpoles left.
~ jan

See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website


See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

have you called Jo Ann and talked it over with her? Ingrid

~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:
Update: 2nd fish was put down after found floating on side still breathing,
it would have been a major miracle if it had lived anyway. Another victim,
with small ulcers, has been pulled from pond, hopefully at an earlier stage
to rescue.

This one was also scraped for a microscope slide, behind gill, vent and
just before the tail, nothing found.

If anyone is thinking of using Tricide Neo, talk to me. I've tried several
methods as described on Dr.J's website, so I'm somewhat experienced on the
good, ugly & scaley of the methods listed. ~ jan

Koi Ponds total size: 1,500 gallons 1995
Koi: 17 this spring, sold 2 early on,but not soon enough, 2 sick and out of
pond one of which is now deceased. 1st case of illness I've every had, as I
failed to lower the stocking rate soon enough as koi grew. (

Lilypond: 1,000 gallons
Fancy Goldfish: 5 only (that may all be female) w/a few tadpoles left.
~ jan

See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website


See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

Jan,

There are other causes of ulcers besides parasites. Scrapes and scratches
gotten during spawning can become very bad ulcers. Do you use KoiZyme. I
have not had to use injectables on but two fish in the last 4 or 5 years
since I started with the KoiZyme. It doesn't do anything for the parasites,
but it sure keeps the fish from having the bacterial infections.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html


"~ jan JJsPond.us" wrote in message
...
Update: 2nd fish was put down after found floating on side still
breathing,
it would have been a major miracle if it had lived anyway. Another victim,
with small ulcers, has been pulled from pond, hopefully at an earlier
stage
to rescue.

This one was also scraped for a microscope slide, behind gill, vent and
just before the tail, nothing found.

If anyone is thinking of using Tricide Neo, talk to me. I've tried several
methods as described on Dr.J's website, so I'm somewhat experienced on the
good, ugly & scaley of the methods listed. ~ jan

Koi Ponds total size: 1,500 gallons 1995
Koi: 17 this spring, sold 2 early on,but not soon enough, 2 sick and out
of
pond one of which is now deceased. 1st case of illness I've every had, as
I
failed to lower the stocking rate soon enough as koi grew. (

Lilypond: 1,000 gallons
Fancy Goldfish: 5 only (that may all be female) w/a few tadpoles left.
~ jan

See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website


See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

Jan, sorry to hear that your fish are having problems. I remember my first
year, and the panic when they started to die. You're much more experienced
than I was, so it must be doubly frustrating.

Would you please share your Tricide Neo experience? I have some to keep on
hand as a "just in case", for use in my "First Aid" kit. I have a diabetic
friend who gave me some needles (which are hard to get around here!), but I
don't keep injectibles on hand - their shelf life is too short. For folks
who are afraid of injectibles or just don't have access, Tricide Neo
*should* be a good alternative. Yes? No?

I agree with RTB on the Koizyme: it's one of the easiest ways to prevent
ulcers.

Lee

"~ jan JJsPond.us" wrote in message
...
Update: 2nd fish was put down after found floating on side still
breathing,
it would have been a major miracle if it had lived anyway. Another victim,
with small ulcers, has been pulled from pond, hopefully at an earlier
stage
to rescue.

This one was also scraped for a microscope slide, behind gill, vent and
just before the tail, nothing found.

If anyone is thinking of using Tricide Neo, talk to me. I've tried several
methods as described on Dr.J's website, so I'm somewhat experienced on the
good, ugly & scaley of the methods listed. ~ jan

Koi Ponds total size: 1,500 gallons 1995
Koi: 17 this spring, sold 2 early on,but not soon enough, 2 sick and out
of
pond one of which is now deceased. 1st case of illness I've every had, as
I
failed to lower the stocking rate soon enough as koi grew. (

Lilypond: 1,000 gallons
Fancy Goldfish: 5 only (that may all be female) w/a few tadpoles left.
~ jan

See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website


See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

On Sun, 20 Jul 2003 08:11:57 -0500, "Tom La Bron" wrote:

Since you were disposing of the fish anyway you should have done a gill
scraping.

We did that when it was alive. One fluke was found, sick tank and pond were
treated with malathion. Just for the experience though, I should have
anyway. Dang. ~ jan

See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

Jan,
The illness of your fish has me rather worried. Our ponds are
the same age and I've never had a sickness either.... (fingers and toes are
crossed). I know you closely watch the quality of
the water - But, isn't your filter supposed to take care of things like
this? How could fish get ulcers without something showing in the
tests? Nedra

Actually I had some water quality issues in the spring. Problem was I was
adjusting to my full life and trying to work a JOB in there too. So I
wasn't out there as much watching the fish as I normally would have been
otherwise. ( Plus, I knew I was over crowded as of last summer and
should have done something about it then and not waited. Live & learn.
~ jan

See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

Thanks for the explantion. Sorry for your loss .....

I wash my filter bags Every Day ... no other way around
that. I really need to put in more filtration. Think I'll do
the whiskey barrels (3) and the 125 gallon preform..
That should hold them (the Koi) for this year.

Nedra
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118

"~ jan JJsPond.us" wrote in message
...
Jan,
The illness of your fish has me rather worried. Our ponds are
the same age and I've never had a sickness either.... (fingers and toes
are
crossed). I know you closely watch the quality of
the water - But, isn't your filter supposed to take care of things like
this? How could fish get ulcers without something showing in the
tests? Nedra

Actually I had some water quality issues in the spring. Problem was I was
adjusting to my full life and trying to work a JOB in there too. So I
wasn't out there as much watching the fish as I normally would have been
otherwise. ( Plus, I knew I was over crowded as of last summer and
should have done something about it then and not waited. Live & learn.
~ jan

See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

Thanks for the explantion. Sorry for your loss .....

I wash my filter bags Every Day ... no other way around
that. I really need to put in more filtration. Think I'll do
the whiskey barrels (3) and the 125 gallon preform..
That should hold them (the Koi) for this year.

Nedra
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118

"~ jan JJsPond.us" wrote in message
...
Jan,
The illness of your fish has me rather worried. Our ponds are
the same age and I've never had a sickness either.... (fingers and toes
are
crossed). I know you closely watch the quality of
the water - But, isn't your filter supposed to take care of things like
this? How could fish get ulcers without something showing in the
tests? Nedra

Actually I had some water quality issues in the spring. Problem was I was
adjusting to my full life and trying to work a JOB in there too. So I
wasn't out there as much watching the fish as I normally would have been
otherwise. ( Plus, I knew I was over crowded as of last summer and
should have done something about it then and not waited. Live & learn.
~ jan

See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

I hadn't thought of separating it -- duh! BTW, if you don't have one, a
digital postal scale is a cheap way to get around the expensive gram scales.
Mine does ounces or grams, including tare (so you don't include the weight
of your container when you're measuring), and goes up to 5 lbs. I think it
cost about $30.00 or so. FYG, if you didn't see it anywhere, Doc J says you
can strain the mix through a coffee filter to remove excess slime and fish
poo, etc. and refrigerate the mix to get about a month out of it. Of course,
you have to bring it back to room temp before you use it, but it extends the
life. I thought the gallon mix would be the easiest way to do it, but the
spray method will allow the mixture to go further, for those on a budget.

Lee

"~ jan JJsPond.us" wrote in message
...
On 21 Jul 2003 08:27:13 -0500, "Lee Brouillet" wrote:

Would you please share your Tricide Neo experience?

IME, the ideal way to do it, is put a gallon of the mixture in a bag. Do
not sedate fish, using a koi sock net, catch fish, rinse with pond water,
put in bag, hold bag up so liquid covers fish. A gallon will be enough.
Set
timer as directed on package. Fish did not get all frantic in the less
than
5 minutes we had it in there. Net out with koi sock, rinse and put in sick
tank, very little human handling. The meds will last thru the 3 times
easy,
if the fish doesn't poop in bag, so don't feed the day you're gonna do it.
It needs to be aerated and stored in a dark container (think rubbermaid)
with an airstone in the bag.

Economically, if you have a chemist or someone with accurate gram scales
buy the 5 gallon amount and then divide the meds by 5 portions store dry
in
a dark container, I'm using a decorator tin. ~ jan

See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

On 22 Jul 2003 07:53:04 -0500, "Lee Brouillet" wrote:

I hadn't thought of separating it -- duh! BTW, if you don't have one, a
digital postal scale is a cheap way to get around the expensive gram scales.
Mine does ounces or grams, including tare (so you don't include the weight
of your container when you're measuring), and goes up to 5 lbs. I think it
cost about $30.00 or so. FYG, if you didn't see it anywhere, Doc J says you
can strain the mix through a coffee filter to remove excess slime and fish
poo, etc. and refrigerate the mix to get about a month out of it.

Course if you're still having trouble after a month...... ;o) The dip seems
to stay fairly clean and doesn't make the fish shed its slime coat that I
can tell. I really wonder if Doc J came up with these ideas, but hasn't
experienced them, because.....

the spray method will allow the mixture to go further, for those on a budget.

just forget this. To use the spray method you must sedate the fish and
Finquel isn't cheap either, in liquid form has a storage of up to a week at
room temp, so you can get thru a treatment on the same container.... again,
if the fish doesn't contaminate it with feces.

I did this method first, pulled weakest fish out, sedated, sprayed and kept
moist for 2-3 minutes, put into wake up water, dead as a door nail. I
worked on it for 15 minutes with airstone all but stuck in its mouth.

Next fish, sedated, sprayed it and 1 minute into treatment it wakes up. It
flipping and a flopping all over the hot tub cover. Meds & slime going all
over me, the hot tub cover, the house & window. It's one thing to hold a
fish that is wet & slimy, but when covered with this medication, there is
no holding it. I was lucky just to get a grip as it flipped off the edge of
the hot tub and stopped struggling. Had it continued it would have gone
behind the hot tub, on to the dusty cement and I would have had the devil
of a time getting it out from behind there. Gives me shivers just to think
about it. If you chose this method, sprayed it inside a tub.

Personally though, it just not worth going thru the sedating procedure,
imo. Not to mention all those containers need to be very close in temp &
pH, or one just adds more stress.

There is another couple in the club who feel that there might be counter
indications (is that the correct term?) using Finquel & Tricide-Neo. That
they cause an adverse reaction. Their theory is only based on a leather koi
that went thru the Finquel into the dip and came out filleted.... the wife
said he left it in the dip 10 minutes and the directions say no longer than
5. So I have to verify that. Then there is my experience, but both fish
were pretty far along in their problems by the time I got set up and the
meds in the mail. Thus, if anyone else results are different, I'd like to
hear about it. ~ jan

See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

On Mon, 21 Jul 2003 21:43:29 GMT, "Theo van Daele" wrote:

FWIW, you are one of the jewels of these NG, and I hope you don't blame
yourself.

Ah, shucks, thanks Theo. ;o) Actually this is the first time I've had
trouble and there is an old saying that, "You're not a true cowboy till you
fall off a horse." I think doctoring a few koi is making me a better KHA
(Koi Health Advisor). If nothing else, I have more empathy for my fellow
true koi people. ;o)

Yup, ugly stuff like having a job (!?) can make us a bit less vigilant
(d'uh).

Especially with trying to keep on top of making sure my middle son
graduated and youngest son did reasonably well himself. Way too many hats
for me to wear this spring, and then have this too.

I think we can scrap "ignorance" in your case

LOL, yea, it's that dang denial that gets me in trouble. "Did that fish
flash? Naa, I'm imaging things." ~ jan

See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

Jan... a single fluke is not an infestation. Most fish got a fluke or two. we arent
talking dacs, right? Ingrid

~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:

On Sun, 20 Jul 2003 08:11:57 -0500, "Tom La Bron" wrote:

Since you were disposing of the fish anyway you should have done a gill
scraping.

We did that when it was alive. One fluke was found, sick tank and pond were
treated with malathion. Just for the experience though, I should have
anyway. Dang. ~ jan

See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 22:19:58 GMT, wrote:

Jan... a single fluke is not an infestation.

Exactly my point for not nuking the pond, one fluke on a stressed fish is
like one aphid on a rose petal, you don't get out the DDT and nuke the
yard.

Most fish got a fluke or two. we arent
talking dacs, right? Ingrid

Yes, it was a gill fluke. ~ jan

See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

I saw your posting on another board regarding this subject. Finquel is the
"vet" stuff, and much more potent. Folks I know that have done the
"anesthesia" route and the TriCide Neo have used Oil of Cloves, much more
passive and forgiving regarding dosing. Finquel dosing is, well, finicky! A
little too much, and oops! - which may be the cause of the problems. Oil of
Cloves is a LOT cheaper, too. And smells better! Finquel is fine for actual
surgical procedures, to put the fish "under". It's also the only anesthesia
allowed for food fish. But being as I'm not planning on eating my koi, the
Oil of Cloves is kinda like (to draw an analogy!) the laughing gas at the
dentist's office: They just don't care! Both have their place: it's just
that I only keep Oil of Cloves on hand because I'm not planning on
performing surgery. It's better suited for fish that you just want to
handle, IMHO. I'm lucky if I can bowl any of my koi; forget about handling
them without a struggle.

Lee

"~ jan JJsPond.us" wrote in message
...
On 22 Jul 2003 07:53:04 -0500, "Lee Brouillet" wrote:

I hadn't thought of separating it -- duh! BTW, if you don't have one, a
digital postal scale is a cheap way to get around the expensive gram
scales.
Mine does ounces or grams, including tare (so you don't include the
weight
of your container when you're measuring), and goes up to 5 lbs. I think
it
cost about $30.00 or so. FYG, if you didn't see it anywhere, Doc J says
you
can strain the mix through a coffee filter to remove excess slime and
fish
poo, etc. and refrigerate the mix to get about a month out of it.

Course if you're still having trouble after a month...... ;o) The dip
seems
to stay fairly clean and doesn't make the fish shed its slime coat that I
can tell. I really wonder if Doc J came up with these ideas, but hasn't
experienced them, because.....

the spray method will allow the mixture to go further, for those on a
budget.

just forget this. To use the spray method you must sedate the fish and
Finquel isn't cheap either, in liquid form has a storage of up to a week
at
room temp, so you can get thru a treatment on the same container....
again,
if the fish doesn't contaminate it with feces.

I did this method first, pulled weakest fish out, sedated, sprayed and
kept
moist for 2-3 minutes, put into wake up water, dead as a door nail. I
worked on it for 15 minutes with airstone all but stuck in its mouth.

Next fish, sedated, sprayed it and 1 minute into treatment it wakes up. It
flipping and a flopping all over the hot tub cover. Meds & slime going all
over me, the hot tub cover, the house & window. It's one thing to hold a
fish that is wet & slimy, but when covered with this medication, there is
no holding it. I was lucky just to get a grip as it flipped off the edge
of
the hot tub and stopped struggling. Had it continued it would have gone
behind the hot tub, on to the dusty cement and I would have had the devil
of a time getting it out from behind there. Gives me shivers just to think
about it. If you chose this method, sprayed it inside a tub.

Personally though, it just not worth going thru the sedating procedure,
imo. Not to mention all those containers need to be very close in temp &
pH, or one just adds more stress.

There is another couple in the club who feel that there might be counter
indications (is that the correct term?) using Finquel & Tricide-Neo. That
they cause an adverse reaction. Their theory is only based on a leather
koi
that went thru the Finquel into the dip and came out filleted.... the wife
said he left it in the dip 10 minutes and the directions say no longer
than
5. So I have to verify that. Then there is my experience, but both fish
were pretty far along in their problems by the time I got set up and the
meds in the mail. Thus, if anyone else results are different, I'd like to
hear about it. ~ jan

See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website