This is to those with water softeners.
When you by pass your machine to add water to your ponds what do you do
about the chlorine thats in the water? Do you buy that stuff for the fish
tanks and add in it?
I checked the salt level in there and it read it didn't have any, but I also
read in the previous thread that it will take out good nutrients as well.

--
Priss
http://priss31.tripod.com/SmallPond.html

water softeners dont remove the chlorine. get a big tub of sodium thiosulfate from
aquatic ecosystems. use the water from the bypass ... you dont know how much sodium
is in the softened water. Ingrid

"Priscilla McCullough" wrote:


This is to those with water softeners.
When you by pass your machine to add water to your ponds what do you do
about the chlorine thats in the water? Do you buy that stuff for the fish
tanks and add in it?
I checked the salt level in there and it read it didn't have any, but I also
read in the previous thread that it will take out good nutrients as well.

I add only softened water.

My unsoftened water GH = 644 ppm, which is insanely high.
Out of the softener it's 40 ppm. After its goes in the pond it
settles around 150 ppm, an acceptable level.

My softener seems to have little effect on the KH. It goes in the
pond around 250 ppm, which is getting on the high side, and settles
out around 180 ppm, another quite acceptable level from everything
I've read.

I wouldn't expect any significant salt in softened water either,
unless the softener is malfunctioning. 0.1% is supposed to be good
for ponds with plants, 0.3% is a popular figure for ponds without
plants anyway. I run around 0.05% as I water fruit trees with water
from the pond. I have to add salt to my softened water to get it up
that high.

I add Crystal Clear Dechlorinator to remove chlorine and chloramine
_only_ if I measure chlorine or chloramine in the water that I'm
adding to the pond. (1 bottle treats 45,000 gallons for $9.) For the
measurement I use the Jungle Chlorine/Chloramine Quick Dip Aquarium
test strips ($7/25 tests.) I prefer not to blindly dump chemicals in
the pond if there's a way to test if they're needed.

Just bear in mind that everyone's water and pond are different.


On Sun, 25 May 2003 08:24:38 -0400, "Priscilla McCullough"
wrote:


This is to those with water softeners.
When you by pass your machine to add water to your ponds what do you do
about the chlorine thats in the water? Do you buy that stuff for the fish
tanks and add in it?
I checked the salt level in there and it read it didn't have any, but I also
read in the previous thread that it will take out good nutrients as well.

--
Priss
http://priss31.tripod.com/SmallPond.html



Steve J. Noll | Ventura California (zone 10)
| Glass Block Pond http://www.kissingfrogs.tv

Hubby corrected me. Its not only a water softener, its a ion exchange resin
bed.
"Priscilla McCullough" wrote in message
...

This is to those with water softeners.
When you by pass your machine to add water to your ponds what do you do
about the chlorine thats in the water? Do you buy that stuff for the fish
tanks and add in it?
I checked the salt level in there and it read it didn't have any, but I
also
read in the previous thread that it will take out good nutrients as well.

--
Priss
http://priss31.tripod.com/SmallPond.html

Hubby agrees with you Steve.
He said the only thing I really need to do is raise my alkalinity with
baking soda.
Priss
"Steve J. Noll" wrote in message
...
I add only softened water.

My unsoftened water GH = 644 ppm, which is insanely high.
Out of the softener it's 40 ppm. After its goes in the pond it
settles around 150 ppm, an acceptable level.

My softener seems to have little effect on the KH. It goes in the
pond around 250 ppm, which is getting on the high side, and settles
out around 180 ppm, another quite acceptable level from everything
I've read.

I wouldn't expect any significant salt in softened water either,
unless the softener is malfunctioning. 0.1% is supposed to be good
for ponds with plants, 0.3% is a popular figure for ponds without
plants anyway. I run around 0.05% as I water fruit trees with water
from the pond. I have to add salt to my softened water to get it up
that high.

I add Crystal Clear Dechlorinator to remove chlorine and chloramine
_only_ if I measure chlorine or chloramine in the water that I'm
adding to the pond. (1 bottle treats 45,000 gallons for $9.) For the
measurement I use the Jungle Chlorine/Chloramine Quick Dip Aquarium
test strips ($7/25 tests.) I prefer not to blindly dump chemicals in
the pond if there's a way to test if they're needed.

Just bear in mind that everyone's water and pond are different.


On Sun, 25 May 2003 08:24:38 -0400, "Priscilla McCullough"
wrote:


This is to those with water softeners.
When you by pass your machine to add water to your ponds what do you do
about the chlorine thats in the water? Do you buy that stuff for the fish
tanks and add in it?
I checked the salt level in there and it read it didn't have any, but I
also
read in the previous thread that it will take out good nutrients as well.

--
Priss
http://priss31.tripod.com/SmallPond.html



Steve J. Noll | Ventura California (zone 10)
| Glass Block Pond http://www.kissingfrogs.tv

0.3% is very hard on Goldfish and koi at those levels for very long. fins begin to
tatter. 0.05- 0.1% is much better. Ingrid

(Steve J. Noll) wrote:
0.3% is a popular figure for ponds without
plants anyway.

How is the resin regenerated? Is it regenerated with salt?

If it is regenerated by salt the output of the bed is going to be high in
sodium (salt). A water softener does not get rid of chlorine, unless there
is carbon in the system and it would need to be replaced on a schedule.

Sounds to me like you would be best to get the tests kits for KH, and salt,
besides the most recommended tests for ammonia, nitrite and pH. Do this
before putting anything in the water.

And yes, my answer is the same as Ingrid for what I do about my chlorine
situation, but you need to find out if it is just chlorine and not
chloramines that are in your water supply. Many cities have website on
their water treatment. ~ jan

On Sun, 25 May 2003 17:35:04 -0400, "Priscilla McCullough"
wrote:

Hubby corrected me. Its not only a water softener, its a ion exchange resin
bed.
"Priscilla McCullough" wrote in message
...

This is to those with water softeners.
When you by pass your machine to add water to your ponds what do you do
about the chlorine thats in the water? Do you buy that stuff for the fish
tanks and add in it?
I checked the salt level in there and it read it didn't have any, but I
also
read in the previous thread that it will take out good nutrients as well.

--
Priss
http://priss31.tripod.com/SmallPond.html





See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

"~ jan JJsPond.us" wrote in message
...
How is the resin regenerated? Is it regenerated with salt?

Yes

If it is regenerated by salt the output of the bed is going to be high in
sodium (salt).

Sodium ions yes, Salt (Sodium Chloride) no.

A water softener does not get rid of chlorine, unless there
is carbon in the system and it would need to be replaced on a schedule.

.....is as I understand it too.

I think that using Softened water for any kind of fish is not a great idea.
Its very much too soft & depleted & then again much too full of Sodium ions
to be good for them (which is why we humans shouldn't drink it either!).

I used softened water for my GF for years with no problem. I added some organic
dolomitic limestone to the water. I drank softened water for years. I have low
blood pressure. Ingrid

I think that using Softened water for any kind of fish is not a great idea.
Its very much too soft & depleted & then again much too full of Sodium ions
to be good for them (which is why we humans shouldn't drink it either!).

I thought from the water resources we site someone quoted earlier in another
thread, there is less sodium in softened water than in the average glass of
milk.
Why a problem?

wrote in message
...
I used softened water for my GF for years with no problem. I added some
organic
dolomitic limestone to the water. I drank softened water for years. I
have low
blood pressure. Ingrid

I think that using Softened water for any kind of fish is not a great
idea.
Its very much too soft & depleted & then again much too full of Sodium
ions
to be good for them (which is why we humans shouldn't drink it either!).

Here are a few points:
1) sodium (salt for practical purposes) is consumed by most people in the US
far beyond the daily recommendation of 2,000 mg (2.4 grams).. in fact many
routinely consume 4 - 6 grams (6,000mg) daily. The vast, vast majority of
that is in food stuffs, not water..
2) only about 18 - 19% of those with high blood pressure are sodium
dependent, meaning that sodium restriction will effect their
diastolic/systolic readings.. for the average hypertensive sodium
restriction will have minimal to no impact, (unless that person is really
taking in major excess sodium routinely) .. if however you are one of those
18 - 19%, then sodium restriction will be an issue.. also if you have other
sodium sensitive problems, ie congestive heart failure, etc, then sodium
restriction will be very important as well
3) blood pressure is genetically determined. If you have high blood
pressure, it is certainly prudent to limit salt intake, at least by stopping
salt additions to food (as most food has abundant sodium to begin with).
It's your genetics.. this is similar to why some can smoke and not get lung
disease, cancer, high blood pressure, peripheral vascular disease, strokes,
heart disease, etc., as quickly/severely as many others will. Trouble is, we
can't genetically predict who will experience the side effects of smoking,
etc.. so it's a roll of the dice, for those that like to gamble that is..
back to topic at hand..
4) older softeners added up to 300 mg/quart (liter) of softened water. So by
simple math, drinking one gallon of water each day would provide 1200mg, or
half of the total recommended daily sodium intake
5) newer (demand regeneration units) softeners are more salt efficient
(thanks to California initiatives that started that back around 1978/79),
cutting sodium exchange by as much as 50% or even more.
6) the amount of sodium added by any softener depends on the water hardness
that is being introduced to the unit.. the harder the water, the more sodium
that is added during the ion exchange process. Most units today add a
maximum of 8mg/liter for each grain of hardness, so for an initial water
hardness of 20 grains they would add a maximum of approx.160mg/liter of
softened water (much less than the older units of 300mg/liter for similar
hardness)
7) recommendations for sodium intake in drinking water is much lower, being
only 20mg/liter, but again, you need to look at "where the $$ is", which
really is in food intake primarily, not the water.
8) there are potassium exchange resins, which add potassium, not salt, which
is great, unless you have/develop potassium sensitive medical problems, ie
renal (kidney) failure, etc... then these can cause major
morbidity/mortality
9) sodium exchanged, BTW, binds to chlorides in the water to make "salt"..
sodium does not exist in the free state (+ charged ion) in water
Happy ponding
Greg


wrote in message
...
I used softened water for my GF for years with no problem. I added some
organic
dolomitic limestone to the water. I drank softened water for years. I
have low
blood pressure. Ingrid

I think that using Softened water for any kind of fish is not a great
idea.
Its very much too soft & depleted & then again much too full of Sodium
ions
to be good for them (which is why we humans shouldn't drink it either!).

So you are saying that when you put table salt into water the sodium, Na+ does not
exist as a free ion? that NaCl does not dissolve into Na+ & Cl- ????
Ingrid

"Gregory Young" wrote:
9) sodium exchanged, BTW, binds to chlorides in the water to make "salt"..
sodium does not exist in the free state (+ charged ion) in water
Happy ponding
Greg

When you add NaCl to water, as it dissolves, it doesn't just disassociate
into Na+ and Cl- and stay that way.
Just like H2o - H+ & OH-. In reality they are equilibrium as follows
(we're simplifying and ignoring other cations and anions) NaCl & H2O -
NaOH & HCl
When you add NaCl to H2O, you will be able to measu
H2O, NaCl, HCl, & NaOH, (plus CaCl2, Na2CO3, CaOH2, etc. with water
containing CaCO3, and other products as well with the Mg etc found in
water.)
The only way either a + or - ion can stay dissociated, is if that charge
(ion) is present in excess of the opposite charge. (ie more + charges than -
available for this discussion)
The easiest example is the hydrogen ion..
Water usually has a neutral pH range (not distilled, which of course is
acidic), unless there is a relative deficit or excess of the H+ ion, which
reflects upon the composition of the salts, minerals, and other compounds
dissolved in the water..
Excess H+ (resulting from base (buffer) deficit most commonly, as seen in
older water, etc), will result in lower pH, due to excess H+ ions present.
Reverse is true with base excess and H+ deficit.
The pH of softened water is (should be) no different than non softened water
as the Na+ and Cl- don't exist as freely charged particles. If they did,
depending on the relative amounts, excess Cl- would combine with H+ from H2O
forming HCl and drop the pH, vs. excess Na+ combining with OH- from H2O
forming NaOH and raising the pH.
That can be easily tested by measuring the pH before and after an in-line
water softener. It will (should) measure the same.
Impurities in the water can certainly cause ionization of charges, that is
quite true, depending on their composition. This are certain metals
(electrodes) placed in salt water that can generate a current essentially
forming a weak battery, but they need to be made of electron donating and
electron receiving material, to allow the imbalance of charges that will
allow ionization to occur and current to flow..
Later,
Greg


wrote in message
...
So you are saying that when you put table salt into water the sodium, Na+
does not
exist as a free ion? that NaCl does not dissolve into Na+ & Cl- ????
Ingrid

"Gregory Young" wrote:
9) sodium exchanged, BTW, binds to chlorides in the water to make
"salt"..
sodium does not exist in the free state (+ charged ion) in water
Happy ponding
Greg

yes. it does dissolve and stay that way unless the water evaporates. Na+ and Cl-
are free ions in water.
http://basd.k12.wi.us/~kreutz/SolutionChemistry.html
"How do we know that ionic solids dissolve in water and form cations and anions that
float around separately? One clue comes from conductivity experiments. Anions and
Cations should act as charge carriers in solution. Therefore a solution with
dissolved ions should conduct electricity. Let's look at a few examples. Pure
(distilled) water contains no dissolved ions. Therefore pure water will not conduct
electricity. In a simple conductivity experiment as shown below we would not expect
the light to be on."

Pure distilled water is neutral pH 7.0
http://www.epa.gov/airmarkt/acidrain...ents/exp1.html

Neutral salts, like NaCl have no effect on pH.
http://chemweb.calpoly.edu/chem/tani...ses/sld039.htm
Ingrid

"Gregory Young" wrote:
When you add NaCl to water, as it dissolves, it doesn't just disassociate
into Na+ and Cl- and stay that way.
Just like H2o - H+ & OH-. In reality they are equilibrium as follows
(we're simplifying and ignoring other cations and anions) NaCl & H2O -
NaOH & HCl
When you add NaCl to H2O, you will be able to measu
H2O, NaCl, HCl, & NaOH, (plus CaCl2, Na2CO3, CaOH2, etc. with water
containing CaCO3, and other products as well with the Mg etc found in
water.)
The only way either a + or - ion can stay dissociated, is if that charge
(ion) is present in excess of the opposite charge. (ie more + charges than -
available for this discussion)
The easiest example is the hydrogen ion..
Water usually has a neutral pH range (not distilled, which of course is
acidic), unless there is a relative deficit or excess of the H+ ion, which
reflects upon the composition of the salts, minerals, and other compounds
dissolved in the water..
Excess H+ (resulting from base (buffer) deficit most commonly, as seen in
older water, etc), will result in lower pH, due to excess H+ ions present.
Reverse is true with base excess and H+ deficit.
The pH of softened water is (should be) no different than non softened water
as the Na+ and Cl- don't exist as freely charged particles. If they did,
depending on the relative amounts, excess Cl- would combine with H+ from H2O
forming HCl and drop the pH, vs. excess Na+ combining with OH- from H2O
forming NaOH and raising the pH.
That can be easily tested by measuring the pH before and after an in-line
water softener. It will (should) measure the same.
Impurities in the water can certainly cause ionization of charges, that is
quite true, depending on their composition. This are certain metals
(electrodes) placed in salt water that can generate a current essentially
forming a weak battery, but they need to be made of electron donating and
electron receiving material, to allow the imbalance of charges that will
allow ionization to occur and current to flow..
Later,
Greg


wrote in message
...
So you are saying that when you put table salt into water the sodium, Na+
does not
exist as a free ion? that NaCl does not dissolve into Na+ & Cl- ????
Ingrid

"Gregory Young" wrote:
9) sodium exchanged, BTW, binds to chlorides in the water to make
"salt"..
sodium does not exist in the free state (+ charged ion) in water
Happy ponding
Greg

wrote in message
...
yes. it does dissolve and stay that way unless the water evaporates. Na+
and Cl-
are free ions in water.
http://basd.k12.wi.us/~kreutz/SolutionChemistry.html
"How do we know that ionic solids dissolve in water and form cations and
anions that
float around separately? One clue comes from conductivity experiments.
Anions and
Cations should act as charge carriers in solution. Therefore a solution
with
dissolved ions should conduct electricity.

They do, but ONLY if a charge is applied (electron donor/acceptor). The +
and - ions will combine to form products (soluble if they dissolve), unless
separated by a semipermeable membrane. Nature doesn't allow opposite charges
to exist adjacent to each other, as the - ion will give its electron to the
+ ion. Water is polar, which we were taught in high school chemistry (too
many years ago for some of us), but only weakly so (as its charges are
balanced with H+, 2 of these to one O, with its -2 charge).
Conductors simply pass electrons from one atom to the next. They don't have
to exist as in a charged (ionic) form. They give up electrons freely, vs
insulators that don't. As freely as they give them up however, they take an
electron from the next, to neutralize their then + charge (which they got
following electron donation)

Let's look at a few examples. Pure
(distilled) water contains no dissolved ions. Therefore pure water will
not conduct
electricity. In a simple conductivity experiment as shown below we would
not expect
the light to be on."

Agreed, but don't try it on yourself, as skin salts will allow you to be
electrocuted just as easily as in "regular" water!


Pure distilled water is neutral pH 7.0

I disagree.. you can test this yourself by running a pH check on a sample of
distilled water. It runs about 5.7 or a bit higher. The reason for this is
the presence of dissolved atmospheric CO2, that can not be buffered back to
7 as there are no dissolved buffers/other compunds in pure distilled water
to do that). It is acidic. Try it!

http://www.epa.gov/airmarkt/acidrain...ents/exp1.html

Neutral salts, like NaCl have no effect on pH.

Yes, I said that. There have balanced + and - charges, with products of HCl
, balanced by NaOH


http://chemweb.calpoly.edu/chem/tani...ses/sld039.htm
Ingrid

"Gregory Young" wrote:
When you add NaCl to water, as it dissolves, it doesn't just disassociate
into Na+ and Cl- and stay that way.
Just like H2o - H+ & OH-. In reality they are equilibrium as follows
(we're simplifying and ignoring other cations and anions) NaCl & H2O -
NaOH & HCl
When you add NaCl to H2O, you will be able to measu
H2O, NaCl, HCl, & NaOH, (plus CaCl2, Na2CO3, CaOH2, etc. with water
containing CaCO3, and other products as well with the Mg etc found in
water.)
The only way either a + or - ion can stay dissociated, is if that charge
(ion) is present in excess of the opposite charge. (ie more + charges
than -
available for this discussion)
The easiest example is the hydrogen ion..
Water usually has a neutral pH range (not distilled, which of course is
acidic), unless there is a relative deficit or excess of the H+ ion,
which
reflects upon the composition of the salts, minerals, and other compounds
dissolved in the water..
Excess H+ (resulting from base (buffer) deficit most commonly, as seen in
older water, etc), will result in lower pH, due to excess H+ ions
present.
Reverse is true with base excess and H+ deficit.
The pH of softened water is (should be) no different than non softened
water
as the Na+ and Cl- don't exist as freely charged particles. If they did,
depending on the relative amounts, excess Cl- would combine with H+ from
H2O
forming HCl and drop the pH, vs. excess Na+ combining with OH- from H2O
forming NaOH and raising the pH.
That can be easily tested by measuring the pH before and after an in-line
water softener. It will (should) measure the same.
Impurities in the water can certainly cause ionization of charges, that
is
quite true, depending on their composition. This are certain metals
(electrodes) placed in salt water that can generate a current essentially
forming a weak battery, but they need to be made of electron donating and
electron receiving material, to allow the imbalance of charges that will
allow ionization to occur and current to flow..
Later,
Greg


wrote in message
...
So you are saying that when you put table salt into water the sodium,
Na+
does not
exist as a free ion? that NaCl does not dissolve into Na+ & Cl- ????
Ingrid

"Gregory Young" wrote:
9) sodium exchanged, BTW, binds to chlorides in the water to make
"salt"..
sodium does not exist in the free state (+ charged ion) in water
Happy ponding
Greg