"Killjoy" wrote in message
ink.net...
Trout and catfish chows are formulated to grow trout and catfish as large
as possible as quickly as possible in order to get them to your table as
cheaply as possible.

What's the difference in the protein levels to accomplish that? The feed
I'm using is 36% animal protein and 5.00% fat.

These fish are collected for consumption when they are no more than 2
years old.

I sell my fish at 1 year of age.

The feeds are formulated for fast growth, NOT the longterm (meaning many
years) health and well being of said fish.

Can you give me the ingredients that cause the abnormally fast and dangerous
growth? What do they add to cause the abnormal growth rate?

Healthy KOI will live for 40+ years.
--
RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~ }(((((o

"Reel McKoi" wrote in message
...

"~ jan" wrote in message
...

Brevity snip

What I personally continue to find ever challenging is keeping great koi
looking great in "CEMENT CLOSED LOOP PONDS". I now know that this goal
is
and will continue to be something to strive for on a regular basis.
thom......
=========================
Excellent article on why *overfeeding* is so dangerous.

Or by extrapolation, feeding inapropriate foods meant to fatten fish for
the platter to sell to unsuspecting Tennesee rubes. It's unhealthy.

Also, the fish in
the study, aside from being so overfed they were lethargic, didn't have a
4
or 5 month winter fast. Not that that would have done them much good
after
being stuffed to the gills (no pun intended) for months.

I don't think many of us have these "Cement closed loop ponds" or the
"cement flow-through ponds" either.

"cat daddy" wrote in message
...

"Reel McKoi" wrote in message
...

"~ jan" wrote in message
...

Brevity snip

What I personally continue to find ever challenging is keeping great
koi
looking great in "CEMENT CLOSED LOOP PONDS". I now know that this goal
is
and will continue to be something to strive for on a regular basis.
thom......
=========================
Excellent article on why *overfeeding* is so dangerous.

Or by extrapolation, feeding inapropriate foods meant to fatten fish for
the platter to sell to unsuspecting Tennesee rubes. It's unhealthy.
========================
It's not inappropriate to horribly overfeed fish if it's meant to grow them
fast for food.

BTW, I'm not a Tennessee so the idiotic childish insult means nothing to me.
I'm sure any Tennesseans here will appreciate your rude and inappropriate
remark. ;-)
--
RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~ }(((((o

"Reel McKoi" wrote in message
...

"cat daddy" wrote in message
...

"Reel McKoi" wrote in message
...

"~ jan" wrote in message
...

Brevity snip

What I personally continue to find ever challenging is keeping great
koi
looking great in "CEMENT CLOSED LOOP PONDS". I now know that this
goal
is
and will continue to be something to strive for on a regular basis.
thom......
=========================
Excellent article on why *overfeeding* is so dangerous.

Or by extrapolation, feeding inapropriate foods meant to fatten fish
for
the platter to sell to unsuspecting Tennesee rubes. It's unhealthy.
========================
It's not inappropriate to horribly overfeed fish if it's meant to grow
them
fast for food.

But, you're not growing koi for food. Neither was the study. Your comment
is irrelevant. See the articles below for the relevant issues of your
feeding the wrong diet and your selling diseased fish.

http://www.koivet.com/html/articles/...p?article_id=8
from Dr. Erik Johnson's Koi Health and Disease
"Catfish chows are for short term use, even in Catfish! And they
eventually cause fatty liver syndrome in Koi."

http://www.avianandexotic.com/csfishes/csf001.pdf.
Practical Koi and Goldfish Medicine
Avian and Exotic Animal Care, PA
Raleigh, North Carolina 919-844-9166
Nutritional Diseases
Fatty liver: Koi raised on a diet that is high in fat, or contains corn and
other low quality, plant-based proteins (e.g. catfish chow) may develop
hepatic lipidosis.

BTW, I'm not a Tennessee so the idiotic childish insult means nothing to
me.
I'm sure any Tennesseans here will appreciate your rude and inappropriate
remark. ;-)

"Ocean Breeze" wrote in message
...

"Tristin" wrote in message
...

You miss this one?

That's the best thing to do as my pictures show my fish have not lost
color,
become obese nor are they dying after a few years. Quite the contrary.
Colors are excellent, they make it through the zone 6 winters and breed
several times before the heat of summer sets in.

Where is the research information asked for? What brands did they use?
What
zone was the test done in? How many years did the test run? What age were
the koi at the start? At the finish? Who financed it? What were the
ingredients in the cheaper feeds used? What natural resources were
available to the fish other than the feed? I spent some time on Google
and
Yahoo and came up empty handed. Just "opinions" were all I found.
--
RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Troll free pond and fish Forum:
http://www.karlsforums.com/forums/fo...ay.php?fid=104
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~ }(((((o

Screwed up and put your sig on the wrong sock again, Carol.

"cat daddy" wrote in message
...

"Reel McKoi" wrote in message
...
It's not inappropriate to horribly overfeed fish if it's meant to grow
them
fast for food.

But, you're not growing koi for food.

Nor an I overfeeding to the point they're inactive and lethargic as the
pictures of my fish make quite clear.

Neither was the study. Your comment
is irrelevant.

So are your endless insults, not to mention they're a waste of time to read.

See the articles below for the relevant issues of your
feeding the wrong diet and your selling diseased fish.

If I were selling DISEASED fish I would have been put out of business by
now. Feed don't cause disease unless it's rancid or stale.

http://www.koivet.com/html/articles/...p?article_id=8
from Dr. Erik Johnson's Koi Health and Disease
"Catfish chows are for short term use, even in Catfish! And they
eventually cause fatty liver syndrome in Koi."

"Which" Catfish chows? My koi are all healthy and for some reason that
upsets a few of you on this group. Maybe you tried the "wrong" catfish/trout
chow if it diseased and killed your fish. Johnson keeps his koi under very
different conditions than we keep ours and I have no idea what brands he
used that sickened his fish.

http://www.avianandexotic.com/csfishes/csf001.pdf.
Practical Koi and Goldfish Medicine
Avian and Exotic Animal Care, PA
Raleigh, North Carolina 919-844-9166
Nutritional Diseases
Fatty liver: Koi raised on a diet that is high in fat, or contains corn
and
other low quality, plant-based proteins (e.g. catfish chow) may develop
hepatic lipidosis.

I'm not using a diet high in fats nor is the protein plant based. I've
posted that before. In fact everyone on this group knows what I've been
feeding for years now - why all of a sudden is it a big deal?

The protein in the feed I'm using is porcine and fish meals. The fat
content is 5.00%. It contains stabilized Vitamin C and I don't overfeed
them.
--
RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~ }(((((o

"cat daddy" wrote in message
...

"Ocean Breeze" wrote in message
...

"Tristin" wrote in message
...

You miss this one?

That's the best thing to do as my pictures show my fish have not lost
color,
become obese nor are they dying after a few years. Quite the contrary.
Colors are excellent, they make it through the zone 6 winters and breed
several times before the heat of summer sets in.

Where is the research information asked for? What brands did they use?
What
zone was the test done in? How many years did the test run? What age
were
the koi at the start? At the finish? Who financed it? What were the
ingredients in the cheaper feeds used? What natural resources were
available to the fish other than the feed? I spent some time on Google
and
Yahoo and came up empty handed. Just "opinions" were all I found.
--
RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Troll free pond and fish Forum:
http://www.karlsforums.com/forums/fo...ay.php?fid=104
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~ }(((((o

Screwed up and put your sig on the wrong sock again, Carol.
=============================
Nope........ that's my other account.
--
RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~ }(((((o

"cat daddy" wrote in message
...

"Ocean Breeze" wrote in message
...
Screwed up and put your sig on the wrong sock again, Carol.
=====================
Why are you only interested in my NYMs when we have several people
NYM-shifting on this group?
--
RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~ }(((((o

"cat daddy" wrote in message
...

The below, from the reef group isn't one of your socks is it? Could it be
your friend Roy "Tristan" Hauer's newest sock? He forgot to change his email
address again, a dead give-away. :-) Odd you only notice when I change
NYMs. Selective vision? Sniffing too many cat litter pans? :-D

"Carols Pain in the Ass" wrote in message
ups.com.../snip sos.

I just wanted to point it out before you inappropriately accused me of being
the above NYM-shifter. :-) After all, what's good for the goose is good
for the gander as I'm sure you agree.

Now, do everyone a favor and killfile me. You're harassment and insulting
the people of TN isn't going to get you what you want.
--
RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~ }(((((o

"Reel McKoi" wrote in message
...

"cat daddy" wrote in message
...

"Reel McKoi" wrote in message
...
It's not inappropriate to horribly overfeed fish if it's meant to grow
them
fast for food.

But, you're not growing koi for food.

Nor an I overfeeding to the point they're inactive and lethargic as the
pictures of my fish make quite clear.

Without a necropsy on your fish, you really don't know if you're damaging
their livers.

Neither was the study. Your comment
is irrelevant.

So are your endless insults, not to mention they're a waste of time to
read.

See the articles below for the relevant issues of your
feeding the wrong diet and your selling diseased fish.

If I were selling DISEASED fish I would have been put out of business by
now. Feed don't cause disease unless it's rancid or stale.

I see. You have no ability to understand the literature.

http://www.koivet.com/html/articles/...p?article_id=8
from Dr. Erik Johnson's Koi Health and Disease
"Catfish chows are for short term use, even in Catfish! And they
eventually cause fatty liver syndrome in Koi."

"Which" Catfish chows? My koi are all healthy and for some reason that
upsets a few of you on this group. Maybe you tried the "wrong"
catfish/trout
chow if it diseased and killed your fish. Johnson keeps his koi under
very
different conditions than we keep ours and I have no idea what brands he
used that sickened his fish.

All of them, Gulley. You already stated yours is high fat at 5%, contains
pork, and curiously haven't identified the brand you use for analysis. You
continuously question all research by DVMs, yet supply nothing but photos as
proof of your own assertions.

http://www.avianandexotic.com/csfishes/csf001.pdf.
Practical Koi and Goldfish Medicine
Avian and Exotic Animal Care, PA
Raleigh, North Carolina 919-844-9166
Nutritional Diseases
Fatty liver: Koi raised on a diet that is high in fat, or contains corn
and
other low quality, plant-based proteins (e.g. catfish chow) may develop
hepatic lipidosis.

I'm not using a diet high in fats nor is the protein plant based. I've
posted that before. In fact everyone on this group knows what I've been
feeding for years now - why all of a sudden is it a big deal?

I don't know the brand you are feeding, so "everyone" does not know. And,
your unsubstantiated claims have been cause for debate for quite some time.
Hardly, "all of a sudden."

The protein in the feed I'm using is porcine and fish meals. The fat
content is 5.00%. It contains stabilized Vitamin C and I don't overfeed
them.

A sampling of koi food shows fat content at 3%, so yours is indeed high
fat. Do koi naturally eat pork? What brand are you feeding?

"Reel McKoi" wrote in message
...

"cat daddy" wrote in message
...

"Ocean Breeze" wrote in message
...

"Tristin" wrote in message
...

You miss this one?

That's the best thing to do as my pictures show my fish have not lost
color,
become obese nor are they dying after a few years. Quite the contrary.
Colors are excellent, they make it through the zone 6 winters and breed
several times before the heat of summer sets in.

Where is the research information asked for? What brands did they use?
What
zone was the test done in? How many years did the test run? What age
were
the koi at the start? At the finish? Who financed it? What were the
ingredients in the cheaper feeds used? What natural resources were
available to the fish other than the feed? I spent some time on Google
and
Yahoo and came up empty handed. Just "opinions" were all I found.
--
RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Troll free pond and fish Forum:
http://www.karlsforums.com/forums/fo...ay.php?fid=104
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~ }(((((o

Screwed up and put your sig on the wrong sock again, Carol.
=============================
Nope........ that's my other account.

Admission noted.

--
RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~ }(((((o

"Reel McKoi" wrote in message
...

"cat daddy" wrote in message
...

"Ocean Breeze" wrote in message
...
Screwed up and put your sig on the wrong sock again, Carol.
=====================
Why are you only interested in my NYMs when we have several people
NYM-shifting on this group?

Because only you have repeatedly lied about doing it. What others do does
not absolve you of guilt.

STFU Stupid

On Tue, 27 Feb 2007 22:36:56 -0600, "Reel McKoi"
wrote:


Excellent article on why *overfeeding* is so dangerous. Also, the fish in
the study, aside from being so overfed they were lethargic, didn't have a 4
or 5 month winter fast. Not that that would have done them much good after
being stuffed to the gills (no pun intended) for months.

I don't think many of us have these "Cement closed loop ponds" or the
"cement flow-through ponds" either.



-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!

More info, apparently it isn't just the label, but are the ingredients
digestible by koi. Pasted by permission: ~ jan

Message from: KHA Tech Chris Neaves
Subject: necropsies - fatty livers
Response: Hi Jan,

I will look around for you for pictures - but off the top of my head:
Catfish food - high in carbohydrates : you will not need a picture for this
as koi (carp) loose their body shape with high carbohydrates.

Trout chow : although I am a great believer in feeding koi a high protein
diet the trout food is very high in protein (to high for koi) at around
45%. Too high in oils - around 12- 14%. This will manifest its self in poor
skin quality. Although studies have demonstrated that carp can utilise this
amount of oil. The source of oil is important. Should be marine oil. This
is rich in omega 3 and omega 6 fatty acids. Trout food is mostly sinking.

Dog food : low in protein and high in carbohydrates. Protein sources in dog
food are things like meat and bone meal, blood meal, etc These raw material
may be high in protein but they do not contain the correct balance and
quantities of amino acids that koi must have.

Cat Food : slightly higher than dog food in the protein but cat food use
chicken meal as a protein source. The oils in chicken meal are not easily
digested by koi. Also carbohydrate levels too high for koi.

It is critical to get a koi food with the right amino acid levels and
balance not only a certain percentage of protein. It is also imperative to
get foods which have high levels of vitamin C, E and A. Higher than found
in cat and dog food. Vitamin C is excellent for healing and the immune
system it is also a very good natural anit-oxidant. High levels of vitamin
C is an essential component of collagen and thus vital to the connective
tissues as well as the bone matrix and scar tissue healing. Remember the
bone structure of our koi is vital to body shape. Deficiency in vitamin C
leads to a marked reduction in wound healing capacity, skeleton
malformations etc and a tendency to haemorrhage and secondary infections.

Vitamin E is a very good natural anti-oxidant inside the body. Deficiency
in vitamin E results in a wide range of problems. These are mostly
associated with muscle and fat tissue and include muscular dropsy. Again
bear in mind that not only the skeleton but the muscles are an important
factor in body shape of our koi.

Vitamin A shortages produce reduced growth. Vitamin A is essential in
maintaining epithelial cells. The skin of our koi is important for lustre,
it houses the colour patterns etc.

The carbohydrate sources in cat and dog food as well as cat fish food use
cheap raw materials such as yellow maize meal - I believe you called it
corn. The yellow maize meal has pigments that will affect the whites on our
koi. More expensive white, finely ground maize meal is far better.

These are some of the things I can think of regarding the differences
between different food sources.

There is one overall consideration. Placing two koi ponds back to back and
feeding a good koi food to one pond and a dog food to another will result
in very different results. This will occur over time. By the time you have
realised that the koi in the first pond are out growing the second pond and
by the time you realise there is a massive difference in colour, skin
lustre and body shape it is almost too late. The damage has been done.

There was a case in this country some years ago where a manufacture of
trout pellets accidently produce a batch with out adding a vitamin /
mineral pre mix. By the end of the growing season the trout farmers who
used this food noticed significantly less growth than in previous seasons.
Tests were done and the cause found. There were legal repercussions but *
the damage had been done.

"cat daddy" wrote in message
...

"Reel McKoi" wrote in message
...

"cat daddy" wrote in message
...

"Reel McKoi" wrote in message
...
It's not inappropriate to horribly overfeed fish if it's meant to grow
them
fast for food.

But, you're not growing koi for food.

Nor an I overfeeding to the point they're inactive and lethargic as the
pictures of my fish make quite clear.

Without a necropsy on your fish, you really don't know if you're
damaging
their livers.

Why would their livers be damaged? I'm not feeding a high fat, veggie based
protein food. They range in age from several to 8 years old and breed like
rabbits every spring. They're active and not obese.

If I were selling DISEASED fish I would have been put out of business by
now. Feed don't cause disease unless it's rancid or stale.

I see. You have no ability to understand the literature.

And apparently you have no ability to understand what I wrote about the feed
I'm using.


http://www.koivet.com/html/articles/...p?article_id=8
from Dr. Erik Johnson's Koi Health and Disease
"Catfish chows are for short term use, even in Catfish! And they
eventually cause fatty liver syndrome in Koi."

"Which" Catfish chows? My koi are all healthy and for some reason that
upsets a few of you on this group. Maybe you tried the "wrong"
catfish/trout
chow if it diseased and killed your fish. Johnson keeps his koi under
very
different conditions than we keep ours and I have no idea what brands he
used that sickened his fish.

All of them, Gulley. You already stated yours is high fat at 5%,
contains
pork, and curiously haven't identified the brand you use for analysis. You
continuously question all research by DVMs, yet supply nothing but photos
as
proof of your own assertions.

5% is high for fish facing a 4 month fast? Now I see why people's koi die
during the winter fast. They have no reserves to survive the winter fast.
The brand I use Nutri Source Farm Pond Diet. Why are you suddenly so
concerned about what I feed since you've known this information for 8 years
and never said a word before?


http://www.avianandexotic.com/csfishes/csf001.pdf.
Practical Koi and Goldfish Medicine
Avian and Exotic Animal Care, PA
Raleigh, North Carolina 919-844-9166
Nutritional Diseases
Fatty liver: Koi raised on a diet that is high in fat, or contains corn
and
other low quality, plant-based proteins (e.g. catfish chow) may develop
hepatic lipidosis.

I'm not using a diet high in fats nor is the protein plant based. I've
posted that before. In fact everyone on this group knows what I've been
feeding for years now - why all of a sudden is it a big deal?

I don't know the brand you are feeding, so "everyone" does not know. And,
your unsubstantiated claims have been cause for debate for quite some
time.
Hardly, "all of a sudden."

Quite some time? This came up just recently and you've all known I use
catfish/trout chow for 8 years at least.

The protein in the feed I'm using is porcine and fish meals. The fat
content is 5.00%. It contains stabilized Vitamin C and I don't overfeed
them.

A sampling of koi food shows fat content at 3%, so yours is indeed high
fat. Do koi naturally eat pork? What brand are you feeding?

See above. The fish in the research were not in ponds and the temps were at
75F throughout. I don't live in the tropics. No matter what I fed them I
believe you would have something to say about it. Yet someone else can
recommend people illegally shoot and kill protected birds and you say
nothing. Koi are not endangered, many of our birds are.
--
RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~ }(((((o