On Mon, 26 Feb 2007 18:08:38 -0600, Tristin
wrote:

That may be true, but falling over all these dead horses gets old
fast.

LOL! At least we can't smell them thru the monitor. ;-) ~ jan

~ jan wrote:

----
To clarify, I'm not concerned what an individual FEEDS their koi, only the
ADVICE they give to the masses that is so contrary to what others are
saying.... but then, it does give good room for discussion, I guess. ~ jan

Did I miss something here???? Isn't the whole thing about Usenet about
our ability to discuss issues, reach a concensus of the majority and
give good advice to those looking for it......it matters not a jot what
one person feeds their fish....if they are happy with it then that is up
to them, even if most disagree....if the concensus is that it might not
suit all then that should be the prevailing result of the
discussion....but someone might choose to just see the cheap option and
disregard anyone else but that is their perogative....Now, if we feel or
believe that advice given is wrong then we as equally valid members of
the group have the right to correct this......giving our
opinions.....and these should not or cannot be invalidated by someone
whose experience is different.....but afterall it is up to the one
asking the question to decide what is good or bad advice....

Gill

"Gill Passman" wrote in message
...
~ jan wrote:

----
To clarify, I'm not concerned what an individual FEEDS their koi, only
the
ADVICE they give to the masses that is so contrary to what others are
saying.... but then, it does give good room for discussion, I guess. ~
jan

Did I miss something here???? Isn't the whole thing about Usenet about our
ability to discuss issues, reach a concensus of the majority and give good
advice to those looking for it......

Keeping in mind what may be excellent advice for a ponder in Florida may not
be for someone in Wyoming.

it matters not a jot what
one person feeds their fish....if they are happy with it then that is up
to them, even if most disagree....if the concensus is that it might not
suit all then that should be the prevailing result of the
discussion....but someone might choose to just see the cheap option and
disregard anyone else but that is their perogative....Now, if we feel or
believe that advice given is wrong then we as equally valid members of the
group have the right to correct this......giving our opinions.....

Keeping in mind what may be "correct" for one set-up, may not be for
another. No one seems to be pointing that out but me!

and these should not or cannot be invalidated by someone
whose experience is different.....but afterall it is up to the one asking
the question to decide what is good or bad advice....

Exactly. Plus the fact after all the contraversy here anyone out there
using the cheaper feeds will surely keep silent and who can blame them? ;-)
--
RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~ }(((((o

On Tue, 27 Feb 2007 01:03:28 +0000, Gill Passman
wrote:

~ jan wrote:

----
To clarify, I'm not concerned what an individual FEEDS their koi, only the
ADVICE they give to the masses that is so contrary to what others are
saying.... but then, it does give good room for discussion, I guess. ~ jan

Did I miss something here???? Isn't the whole thing about Usenet about
our ability to discuss issues,

Yes, you're absolutely correct, I miss spoke. Probably due to the nature of
this topic...... ~ jan

"~ jan" wrote in message
...
On 26 Feb 2007 22:57:09 GMT, Nick Cramer wrote:


I failed to DL it. Can you repost the URL for me, please?

From this website:
http://www.nda.agric.za/docs/AAPS/Ar...koi%20husb.pdf

----
To clarify, I'm not concerned what an individual FEEDS their koi, only the
ADVICE they give to the masses

Telling someone what you feed your fish isn't giving advice to the
masses?!?!?!?!

that is so contrary to what others are
saying....

Others may have a totally different set-up.

but then, it does give good room for discussion, I guess. ~ jan

What a boring world if everyone agreed with everyone else and everyone had
the same ponds, the same fish, in the same climate with the same filters and
the same natural resources available to the fish........ there would be no
need to discuss anything. :-O
--
RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~ }(((((o

"Reel McKoi" wrote:
"~ jan" wrote in message
Nick Cramer wrote:

I failed to DL it. Can you repost the URL for me, please?

From this website:
http://www.nda.agric.za/docs/AAPS/Ar...seases%20and%2
0Health/koi%20husb.pdf

----
To clarify, I'm not concerned what an individual FEEDS their koi, only
the ADVICE they give to the masses

Telling someone what you feed your fish isn't giving advice to the
masses?!?!?!?!

that is so contrary to what others are
saying....

Others may have a totally different set-up.

but then, it does give good room for discussion, I guess. ~ jan

What a boring world if everyone agreed with everyone else and everyone
had the same ponds, the same fish, in the same climate with the same
filters and the same natural resources available to the fish........
there would be no need to discuss anything. :-O

With all due respect, I have come to find you a bore.

--
Nick. Support severely wounded and disabled Veterans and their families!

Thank a Veteran and Support Our Troops. You are not forgotten. Thanks ! ! !
~Semper Fi~ www.delphiayachtsusa.com

Twsit it how you want to twist it, mix it how yu want to mix it, what
you say still comes out stating the same thing...your a cheapass who
took a chance on the unethical feeding of thre koi and since they are
still alive and yu have not spent as much $$ as yu normally whould
have to with proper feeds yo theorized its a proper food source now,
so therefore according to your house rules its an acceptable
method.WRONG.....its imorale to feed improper food to the speices.
plain and simple.......being that they are not human and even if they
were there is a point when anything thing will virtually eat anything
just to stay alive.........after all POWs lied on leather from the
soles of shoes as well as bark from tree's....was it good for them,
Nooooooo, did it sustain their life..yes,,,,,,,,,my one dog eats goat
crap, so is that then considered a viable source of food, because if
it is I am gonna save a heap of money as I have lots of goat crap
around.

Your really beyond boring IMNSHO


On Mon, 26 Feb 2007 20:16:48 -0600, "Reel McKoi"
wrote:


"Gill Passman" wrote in message
...
~ jan wrote:

----
To clarify, I'm not concerned what an individual FEEDS their koi, only
the
ADVICE they give to the masses that is so contrary to what others are
saying.... but then, it does give good room for discussion, I guess. ~
jan

Did I miss something here???? Isn't the whole thing about Usenet about our
ability to discuss issues, reach a concensus of the majority and give good
advice to those looking for it......

Keeping in mind what may be excellent advice for a ponder in Florida may not
be for someone in Wyoming.

it matters not a jot what
one person feeds their fish....if they are happy with it then that is up
to them, even if most disagree....if the concensus is that it might not
suit all then that should be the prevailing result of the
discussion....but someone might choose to just see the cheap option and
disregard anyone else but that is their perogative....Now, if we feel or
believe that advice given is wrong then we as equally valid members of the
group have the right to correct this......giving our opinions.....

Keeping in mind what may be "correct" for one set-up, may not be for
another. No one seems to be pointing that out but me!

and these should not or cannot be invalidated by someone
whose experience is different.....but afterall it is up to the one asking
the question to decide what is good or bad advice....

Exactly. Plus the fact after all the contraversy here anyone out there
using the cheaper feeds will surely keep silent and who can blame them? ;-)



-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!

"Nick Cramer" wrote in message
...
"Reel McKoi" wrote:
"~ jan" wrote in message
Nick Cramer wrote:

I failed to DL it. Can you repost the URL for me, please?

From this website:
http://www.nda.agric.za/docs/AAPS/Ar...seases%20and%2
0Health/koi%20husb.pdf

----
To clarify, I'm not concerned what an individual FEEDS their koi, only
the ADVICE they give to the masses

Telling someone what you feed your fish isn't giving advice to the
masses?!?!?!?!

that is so contrary to what others are
saying....

Others may have a totally different set-up.

but then, it does give good room for discussion, I guess. ~ jan

What a boring world if everyone agreed with everyone else and everyone
had the same ponds, the same fish, in the same climate with the same
filters and the same natural resources available to the fish........
there would be no need to discuss anything. :-O

With all due respect, I have come to find you a bore.
=================================
That's ok. That's what killfiles are for. :-)
--
RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~ }(((((o

On Tue, 27 Feb 2007 10:27:42 -0600, "Reel McKoi"
wrote nothing of value to anyone and was
promptly slapped down by a dead koi:

yet she further proves what a total loon she really is!

snip

With all due respect, I have come to find you a bore.
=================================
That's ok. That's what killfiles are for.



-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!

"Tristin" wrote nothing of value to anyone and
was
promptly slapped down by a dead koi:

yet she further proves what a total loon she really is!
========================
Yeah, I bet he really loves reading your personal attacks on me! :-) Ya
think?
--
RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~ }(((((o

"Reel McKoi" wrote:
"Nick Cramer" wrote in message
"Reel McKoi" wrote:
"~ jan" wrote in message
Nick Cramer wrote:

I failed to DL it. Can you repost the URL for me, please?

From this website:
http://www.nda.agric.za/docs/AAPS/Ar...0Diseases%20an
d%2 0Health/koi%20husb.pdf

To clarify, I'm not concerned what an individual FEEDS their koi,
only the ADVICE they give to the masses

Telling someone what you feed your fish isn't giving advice to the
masses?!?!?!?!

that is so contrary to what others are saying....

Others may have a totally different set-up.

but then, it does give good room for discussion, I guess. ~ jan

What a boring world if everyone agreed with everyone else and everyone
had the same ponds, the same fish, in the same climate with the same
filters and the same natural resources available to the fish........
there would be no need to discuss anything. :-O

With all due respect, I have come to find you a bore.
=================================
That's ok. That's what killfiles are for. :-)

I've kf's you under many names. OK, I'll add this one.

--
Nick. Support severely wounded and disabled Veterans and their families!

Thank a Veteran and Support Our Troops. You are not forgotten. Thanks ! ! !
~Semper Fi~ www.delphiayachtsusa.com

"Tristin" wrote in message
...

You miss this one?

That's the best thing to do as my pictures show my fish have not lost color,
become obese nor are they dying after a few years. Quite the contrary.
Colors are excellent, they make it through the zone 6 winters and breed
several times before the heat of summer sets in.

Where is the research information asked for? What brands did they use? What
zone was the test done in? How many years did the test run? What age were
the koi at the start? At the finish? Who financed it? What were the
ingredients in the cheaper feeds used? What natural resources were
available to the fish other than the feed? I spent some time on Google and
Yahoo and came up empty handed. Just "opinions" were all I found.
--
RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Troll free pond and fish Forum:
http://www.karlsforums.com/forums/fo...ay.php?fid=104
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~ }(((((o

This is from one of the KHA's on the KHA board. Unfortunately it came to me
in Adobe, so if anyone would like the whole thing, let me know
and I'll E it to you, as there are a whole bunch of
threaded messages. This was on the NI board in 2004 so hopefully a formal
report will be coming out soon.

Even though it isn't about catfish & trout chow, it does bring up some
interesting points regarding feeding/overfeeding/improper feeding.
~ jan

Fatty Liver /Metabolic Syndrome Disease in Koi -- Research
Posted by thom blischok on 11/26/2004, 6:41 am

Fellow NI'ers,
We have just completed a one year study effort regarding the feeding of koi
and have some rather interesting results.
The hypothesis we were trying to validate is one I've personally felt was
unanswered in all for the literature I've read to date -- and that
hypothesis centered on the idea of "growing koi" at faster metabolically
normal rates -- that is "bulking up" to grow them fast and big. We will be
publishing the study in a couple of months and I thought that I'd provide
some insights that might be interesting for us all to reflect on as we
determine the rate of growth that we create as a result of our feeding
regimen.

First, lets talk about the groups of koi we used in the study. Each group
had twenty five koi randomly selected -- these koi were pulled form my mud
ponds (three year olds) and placed into large 100,000 gallon flow through
cement ponds. Group A was fed amounts based on normal body weights
calculated at the time of placing the koi into the ponds and recalculated
each month. Group B was fed five times normal rates with the idea of
"bulking them up" as fast as possible (they were fed five times per day
versus two times per day for Group A).

Group A was forced to forage for much of their food and Group B seemed to
be satisfied from an appetite perspective almost always.
Water temps were in the 75 degree range and water quality was optimal
throughout the entire test period.

To summarize a couple of results, Group B grew at least 50% more than Group
A -- typically exhibited by a huge underbelly (this if course was supported
by fish deemed to have the proper genetics to grow to large sizes). Group A
was quite active throughout the day foraging for food while group B was
quite sedentary waiting to be fed.

We did quarterly blood tests on all glucose, cholesterol, triglycerides,
amylase, and lipase. We fed a food base that was 45% protein (basically a
high growth diet) with 10% fat, 15% carbohydrates, 10% fiber, 9% ash, 1%
vitamins, and 10% moisture. We calculated the total energy for this diet at
approximately 350 kcal/100 grams of food.

As we began to come to the end of the study we wanted to understand the
effect of "Bulking up" and we learned a lot (of which I'll share some
initial findings that will be published later). First, upon doing
necropsies on several koi from both groups we clearly saw very distinct
differences in blood chemistry (the blood samples were taken before we
euthanized the koi).

The Group B fish had serum glucose levels above 160mg/dl (norms of 30 -
120mg/dl) -- in some cases approaching 180 mg/dl; cholesterol was in Group
B over 490 mg/dl (norms 200mg - 400mg/dl); and Triglycerides -- some over
600 (approaching 700) mg/dl,(norms 100mg - 500mg/dl).

As we got into the body cavity we saw significant and numerous adipose
deposits in the gut areas -- several quite hard -- almost calcified. As we
began to look at the organs we saw fat deposits in the liver as well as
some nephrotoxcicity in the kidneys (also in the liver). We saw a
build up of fat around the heart and a general observation that the
internal organs were not getting quite the same blood supply as the Group A
fish -- the coloration of the Group B fish was slightly more of a dullish
red/brown versus a shiny more red appearance. From my perspective the
coloration differences directly reflects organ optimal health.

As part of the research effort we basically diagnosed the koi in Group B as
having a human disease -- we call it metabolic syndrome -- that is -- the
blood sugars were quite high from overfeeding, cholesterol was elevated,
triglycerides were abnormal, lots of fat deposits especially in the gut
areas, and finally organ function was clearly deteriorated.
The reason we embarked upon this effort was primarily driven by the old age
debate of "should we grow koi as fast as we can (like the food fish farmers
do) or should we be more conservative in our approach.
As many of you know in our ponds we have worked hard to follow the more
conservative approach and have been satisfied with the results to date.
So without releasing all of our findings yet (we still have lots of data to
validate) I thought I'd give some "food for thought" to this board on
feeding habits and the actual result of overfeeding (in THIS STUDY).
Thoughts from a simple koi keeper.....
thom....
----
Posted by Brett on 11/26/2004, 11:57 pm, in reply to " Fatty Liver
/Metabolic Syndrome Disease in Koi -- Research "

Was either group more mature and the females more gravid?
Which group might offer better spawning success? I find these results
interesting. Something seen by local alligator breeders is that "well fed"
and lazy gators tend to have poor reproductive success in semi-captivity
compared to better exercised and less regularly fed gators.
The goals of bringing a koi into show form, that of health and longevity,
and preparing them for reproductive success (not just spawning but also
gamete quality) might require differing approaches, especially with respect
to diet.

In this study, what is the ultimate goal with respect to desired outcome?
Enlightening study.
Brett

effect of two protocols on gonad development?
Posted by thom blischok on 11/27/2004, 1:13 am, in reply to "effect of two
protocols on gonad development?"

Brett,
We had a combination of males and females and did not even consider the
spawning effect.

We simply pulled out of the pond some of our spawn from previous years that
were now three year olds.

Can't answer the question which group might have better spawning success
although from what I saw during necropsy, my guess would be the Group which
was fed a more conservative diet. My guess is that the "fat group" would
not spawned as well. Lots and lots of fat buildup in the stomach cavity.
Interesting on the alligators.

The desired outcome was quite simple. I wanted to know the actual
scientific effect of feeding a long term high growth diet. In my own mind
I've always questioned the rationale of "fattening them up" for the show --
that is growing them big -- fast.

In the case of the koi in my ponds, my feeding regimen has centered on slow
consistent growth with approximately 60% of the daily food content coming
from foraging the walls and bottom of the pond.

From the NI perspective, I thought the study might spark a thought or two
about the massive feeding of food (any type) and its potential long term
effect on koi health.

As I have continued to explore koi shows, one of the awards I'd sure like
to see is an award based on longevity and health. From my perspective far
too much emphasis is on the "beauty queen" part of the show and not enough
on koi that have been grown with great husbandry techniques.
Might be an interesting kind of recognition for a koi keeper -- in my
humble opinion -- probably one of the most important recognitions that a
koi keeper can get is to be recognized as a keeper of the bloodline over
time -- not just the owner of a koi for the moment.

What I personally continue to find ever challenging is keeping great koi
looking great in "CEMENT CLOSED LOOP PONDS". I now know that this goal is
and will continue to be something to strive for on a regular basis.
thom......

"~ jan" wrote in message
...
This is from one of the KHA's on the KHA board. Unfortunately it came to
me
in Adobe, so if anyone would like the whole thing, let me know
and I'll E it to you, as there are a whole bunch of
threaded messages. This was on the NI board in 2004 so hopefully a formal
report will be coming out soon.

Even though it isn't about catfish & trout chow, it does bring up some
interesting points regarding feeding/overfeeding/improper feeding.
~ jan

Interesting study and thanks for posting it. It's a shame that such
studies are still needed, as common wisdom should prevail that over-eating,
eating crap food, and excessively processed or dubious ingredients is bad,
no matter the species.
But, we are still an insane culture that accepts feedlot beef fattened on
its own diseased kind and chicken excrement, and thinks there is an
acceptable level of Bisphenol A leaching in plastic baby bottles.

Fatty Liver /Metabolic Syndrome Disease in Koi -- Research
Posted by thom blischok on 11/26/2004, 6:41 am

Fellow NI'ers,
We have just completed a one year study effort regarding the feeding of
koi
and have some rather interesting results.
The hypothesis we were trying to validate is one I've personally felt was
unanswered in all for the literature I've read to date -- and that
hypothesis centered on the idea of "growing koi" at faster metabolically
normal rates -- that is "bulking up" to grow them fast and big. We will be
publishing the study in a couple of months and I thought that I'd provide
some insights that might be interesting for us all to reflect on as we
determine the rate of growth that we create as a result of our feeding
regimen.


snip

"~ jan" wrote in message
...

Brevity snip

What I personally continue to find ever challenging is keeping great koi
looking great in "CEMENT CLOSED LOOP PONDS". I now know that this goal is
and will continue to be something to strive for on a regular basis.
thom......
=========================
Excellent article on why *overfeeding* is so dangerous. Also, the fish in
the study, aside from being so overfed they were lethargic, didn't have a 4
or 5 month winter fast. Not that that would have done them much good after
being stuffed to the gills (no pun intended) for months.

I don't think many of us have these "Cement closed loop ponds" or the
"cement flow-through ponds" either.
--
RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~ }(((((o