A few years back I had posted about the vast differences in
temperatures in my 1+ acre pond, which is approx 21/22 feet deep.

Even with a good fountian putting out 6,000 + GPH of water and pulling
the water from 6 feet under the surface, it really did not effect the
water below that level to any degree......Granted water that is deep
has little to no oxygen level so its irrevalent in regards to holding
fish, but it still plays an important part of contributingto turbid /
alge laden waters.

Our outside temps are in the upper 30's to lower 40's for the most
part. My ponds water temp is as follows....

surface to 4 feet---53 deg
7 feet to 4 feet-----54 deg
15 feet to 7 feet---57 deg
bottom to 15 feet--63 deg.

Now in the new pond which is approx 13-15 feet deep with no fountain
but using aeration from submerged aeration pads on the ponds bottom
the temps a

surface to 4 feet 56 deg
7 feet to 4 foot...56 deg
10 feet to 7 feet--58 deg
bottom to 10 feet....58 deg
The water with aeratin is much more uniform, so there fore its being
circulated a lot better. I wuld imagine fish are better abole to
utilize water that is deeper inthis aerated pond as compared to the
other pond with a fountain a its only source of aeration. The aerated
pond has water temps without as much variation, so evidently there is
more of a mix or turnover of the water with aeration as compared to a
fountain.

In summer these numbers reverse with the warmer water on top, so its
safe to say thje pond with submerged aeration will remain cooler even
though its shallower, and provide much more useable water depth for
the fish to use.

The submerged aeration cost a bait more to buy, but its easy to
install and clean.......I do not think its any mor expensive to
operate as both draw amperage that is very close. Over time, however
the submerged aeration is more than likely to produce much morew
satisfactory results and better water quality than a fountain will.
Now if yu have to buy a factory made fountain then your in the same
ballpark price wise with either device. Unfortunately most folks go
with a fountain over submerged aeration purely for
aesthetics.......certainly nothing nice about apond with bubbles
riseing up as compared to a illuminated fountain shooting water 30
feet into the air....but that lowly aerator is so much more
beneficial overall even if no fish is kept. With an aerator you can
always add a cheaper lesser output fountain for your viewing pleasure
if you just have to have a fountain.

Up unti lI checked the numebers with the fountain / vrs / aerator, I
was going to but one of those propeller aerators, which also pull up
water form deeper sections, but they are limited to how deep they can
pull from so I am glad I ran some numbers on temps for now, and more
than likely will just add more submerged mats to the other ponds and
forego any additional fountain or propeller devices. HOpefully last
year wa smy last at battling any algae blooms, as my water was great.
I may even be able to reduce my potassium Permangante treatments to
one dose instead of the customary two per year. No reason the info I
gained here in regards to aeration / vers fountains etc would not
apply to a liner type pond. Sure would like to hear others opinions on
it though before I make any definate conclusions.

Another thing I may fool with this year is taking actual water samples
and seeing exactly what propponents rise and when they rise...spring,
summer fall , etc.....Ponds are much to large to adjust parameters,
but I can reduce nitrates and phosphorus with Potassium Permanganate.
Also oging to be interesting comparing two older established ponds
with a new pond in regards to water parameters. All are in same soil,
filled from same sources, same exposure to sun......only differences
is depth and age.







-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!

On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 11:32:55 -0600, Tristan
wrote:

A few years back I had posted about the vast differences in
temperatures in my 1+ acre pond, which is approx 21/22 feet deep.

Even with a good fountian putting out 6,000 + GPH of water and pulling
the water from 6 feet under the surface, it really did not effect the
water below that level to any degree......Granted water that is deep
has little to no oxygen level so its irrevalent in regards to holding
fish, but it still plays an important part of contributingto turbid /
alge laden waters.

Our outside temps are in the upper 30's to lower 40's for the most
part. My ponds water temp is as follows....

surface to 4 feet---53 deg
7 feet to 4 feet-----54 deg
15 feet to 7 feet---57 deg
bottom to 15 feet--63 deg.

Now in the new pond which is approx 13-15 feet deep with no fountain
but using aeration from submerged aeration pads on the ponds bottom
the temps a

surface to 4 feet 56 deg
7 feet to 4 foot...56 deg
10 feet to 7 feet--58 deg
bottom to 10 feet....58 deg
The water with aeratin is much more uniform, so there fore its being
circulated a lot better. I wuld imagine fish are better abole to
utilize water that is deeper inthis aerated pond as compared to the
other pond with a fountain a its only source of aeration. The aerated
pond has water temps without as much variation, so evidently there is
more of a mix or turnover of the water with aeration as compared to a
fountain.

In summer these numbers reverse with the warmer water on top, so its
safe to say thje pond with submerged aeration will remain cooler even
though its shallower, and provide much more useable water depth for
the fish to use.

I hope you do report back on this come summer, very interesting what you've
gotten so far in winter. I guess this is why koi grow big fast down south.
:-)

The submerged aeration cost a bait more to buy, but its easy to
install and clean.......I do not think its any mor expensive to
operate as both draw amperage that is very close. Over time, however
the submerged aeration is more than likely to produce much morew
satisfactory results and better water quality than a fountain will.
Now if yu have to buy a factory made fountain then your in the same
ballpark price wise with either device. Unfortunately most folks go
with a fountain over submerged aeration purely for
aesthetics.......certainly nothing nice about apond with bubbles
riseing up as compared to a illuminated fountain shooting water 30
feet into the air....but that lowly aerator is so much more
beneficial overall even if no fish is kept. With an aerator you can
always add a cheaper lesser output fountain for your viewing pleasure
if you just have to have a fountain.

Up unti lI checked the numebers with the fountain / vrs / aerator, I
was going to but one of those propeller aerators, which also pull up
water form deeper sections, but they are limited to how deep they can
pull from so I am glad I ran some numbers on temps for now, and more
than likely will just add more submerged mats to the other ponds and
forego any additional fountain or propeller devices. HOpefully last
year wa smy last at battling any algae blooms, as my water was great.
I may even be able to reduce my potassium Permangante treatments to
one dose instead of the customary two per year. No reason the info I
gained here in regards to aeration / vers fountains etc would not
apply to a liner type pond. Sure would like to hear others opinions on
it though before I make any definate conclusions.

Another thing I may fool with this year is taking actual water samples
and seeing exactly what propponents rise and when they rise...spring,
summer fall , etc.....Ponds are much to large to adjust parameters,
but I can reduce nitrates and phosphorus with Potassium Permanganate.
Also oging to be interesting comparing two older established ponds
with a new pond in regards to water parameters. All are in same soil,
filled from same sources, same exposure to sun......only differences
is depth and age.

When you do your pp treatments, what ppm do you shoot for? I heard 2 ppm is
good for removing organics. ~ jan

On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 18:51:23 GMT, ~ jan
wrote:
snip

I hope you do report back on this come summer, very interesting what you've
gotten so far in winter. I guess this is why koi grow big fast down south.
:-)

I am going to try and keep a very concise set of records on all ponds
to include a few of the wifes smaller preforms just so I can bump
data back and forth to see how they all vary and what takes place due
to what and when......I have time so may as well make the most of it.


snip

When you do your pp treatments, what ppm do you shoot for? I heard 2 ppm is
good for removing organics. ~ jan

I do not go by any set PPM rate. I go by what a demand test indicates
is needed to obtain good water. It can have a good degree of variation
depending on actual organic load. 2ppm is however a safe starting
point, which is not usually harmfull for fish but on the wame hand it
may not oxidize all that needs oxidizing either. Thats why I use a
demand test, and do it one time hopefully, and not have to go more
than one treatment back to back. I have had treatments of 4 and 5 PPM
already and the fish did fine...however, thats my experieince, and I
can only say if your not sure go with a lower level, and repeat until
you get good water and obtain what yuor looking for.....

To do a demand test gather up 4 or 5 samples of water, in say 1 quart
mason jars......

You need a stock solution that equates to 2ppm of PP. Easy to make and
handy to have......and can be made up in a 1 gal jug and kept in adark
cool place for easy use. It lasts about a year or so, evendown here in
the hot south.

To each sample of water, add the amount of drops needed for 2ppm, 3
ppm, 4 ppm etc etc Look for samples to retaina the pink/purple color
for the lenfgth of time needed.(6-8 hoursis recomended target range).

If it comes out say with 3 ppm that retained the color for the time
frame, then dosing at 2ppm is not going to be sufficieint, and dosing
at 4ppm is too high, but 3ppm rate wuld be whats needed to do the job.

I can give a better detailed method of making a stock solution and
doing these demand tests if i nterested. Just arbitrarily adding in
say 2ppm of PP is sort of like shotgun method of dosing.......why put
th efish through 2ppm if 1 will do or why put fish throght 2 does of
2ppm when one of 3 ppm will work, and still be relatively (my
observations) safe for the fish. The doses listed by various sources
for using PP is a guide, and is well within the "safe" range.......but
they do have limitations and risks as well as a good probability of
not getting 100% of the job done.

The use of PP is not dangerous or hard to do if a few simple rules are
followed and a demand test is followed. Its probbaly as safe as
adding dechorinator to water. If a fish does show signs of stress or
dies, the odds are that fish was destined to expire with or without
PP. Its not uncommon for fish to sort of go crazy with the first few
minutes of exposure to PP, but its a short term thing, and soon they
think its sun down or lights out and settle down thinking its night
time due to the brown oxidized water.......In a preform or liner pond
its not hard to reverse th edose of PP, but in a large pond it woud
be a very expensive proposition. I know if I can safely dose large
ponds in excess of 1.6 million gallons correctly, y'all can easily do
a smaller liner or preform type pond and have a lot more saftey
devices built into the process than possible with a natural pond. PP
doseing is not hard to do and ponds, fish and plants can actually
benefit from it if done as a sort of preventative measure.....like
early spring, or late fall..

Regards




-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!

On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 13:23:10 -0600, Tristan
wrote:

When you do your pp treatments, what ppm do you shoot for? I heard 2 ppm is
good for removing organics. ~ jan

I do not go by any set PPM rate. I go by what a demand test indicates
is needed to obtain good water. It can have a good degree of variation
depending on actual organic load. 2ppm is however a safe starting
point, which is not usually harmfull for fish but on the wame hand it
may not oxidize all that needs oxidizing either.

This is my situation, at the Demo Pond there is a 1-2 inch fluffy mulm
layer. You step on it and it goes poof away from your foot. Because of
thieves we can't grow the fish large enough to help move it to the bottom
drain. I'd like to add it dry to the 55 gallon barrel (pump chamber) so am
wondering how much for 2 ppm for 2000 gallons. (And I'm being very lazy, as
I could figure it out, but if someone already knows, why tax my brain?) ;-)
~ jan

Only way to know is a demand test. I have heard that water need to be
mixed well for a proper reading, however other than my ponds aeration
I just grab 5 samples of water and go. It may take a considerably
larger amount than the 10ppm that is usually recomended, and going
with that strong a dose is in itself quite a chance. But since it
takes 1.9 grams to treat 250 gal, so for 2000 gal its gonna need a
total of 15.2 grams of PP or approx 2 1/4 teaspoons of PP per 2000
gal.

Formula is:

Grams of PP needed = GAL to treat x 0.0038 x 2 mg/L
Regards


On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 00:41:02 GMT, ~ jan
wrote:

On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 13:23:10 -0600, Tristan
wrote:

When you do your pp treatments, what ppm do you shoot for? I heard 2 ppm is
good for removing organics. ~ jan

I do not go by any set PPM rate. I go by what a demand test indicates
is needed to obtain good water. It can have a good degree of variation
depending on actual organic load. 2ppm is however a safe starting
point, which is not usually harmfull for fish but on the wame hand it
may not oxidize all that needs oxidizing either.

This is my situation, at the Demo Pond there is a 1-2 inch fluffy mulm
layer. You step on it and it goes poof away from your foot. Because of
thieves we can't grow the fish large enough to help move it to the bottom
drain. I'd like to add it dry to the 55 gallon barrel (pump chamber) so am
wondering how much for 2 ppm for 2000 gallons. (And I'm being very lazy, as
I could figure it out, but if someone already knows, why tax my brain?) ;-)
~ jan



-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!

Tristan wrote:

I am going to try and keep a very concise set of records on all ponds
to include a few of the wifes smaller preforms just so I can bump
data back and forth to see how they all vary and what takes place due
to what and when......I have time so may as well make the most of it.

Not being able to aspire to such large ponds as you have, I'd be very
interested in the results from your wife's preforms - as these are more
likely going to be comparable to anything that I end up with.

My assumption on the pre-forms is that the temperature variation will be
less but that the temperature at the bottom will also be lower - so it
would be interesting to see if this theory is confirmed by your
measurements. I also might try and take some temperature readings on the
reservoir of my water feature, which is dug around 18-24" into the soil
- but need to go out and buy another thermometer first as I broke my
last digital one that had a sensor.

Just one other question on the water movement/aeration - if you did this
(ie. aerated from the bottom rather than a fountain on top) in a smaller
pond, such as most of us have/will have, wouldn't it have the effect of
chilling all the water and losing the low level haven that
fish/creatures use to over-winter?

Gill

On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 13:19:36 +0000, Gill Passman
wrote:

Just one other question on the water movement/aeration - if you did this
(ie. aerated from the bottom rather than a fountain on top) in a smaller
pond, such as most of us have/will have, wouldn't it have the effect of
chilling all the water and losing the low level haven that
fish/creatures use to over-winter?
Gill

It's been found that in shallow ponds, under 4-5 feet there isn't much
stratification going on. I know in my 3 footers, it would be pretty darn
cold.... thus why I chose to keep a heater in it and use as needed. ~ jan

On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 19:49:27 GMT, ~ jan
wrote:

On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 13:19:36 +0000, Gill Passman
wrote:

Just one other question on the water movement/aeration - if you did this
(ie. aerated from the bottom rather than a fountain on top) in a smaller
pond, such as most of us have/will have, wouldn't it have the effect of
chilling all the water and losing the low level haven that
fish/creatures use to over-winter?
Gill

It's been found that in shallow ponds, under 4-5 feet there isn't much
stratification going on. I know in my 3 footers, it would be pretty darn
cold.... thus why I chose to keep a heater in it and use as needed. ~ jan


This is true. Less water to turn over so differences usually are
less. I know sopme of my wifes preforms are the same temps from top
to bottom and IIRC the deepest preform is about 20" The preforms that
are inground" however stay a bit warmer overall (up to a certain
point) than those water features of comparable depth that set totally
out of the ground (half whiskey barrels, Stock tanks etc)

I stil need to check that 100 watt heater setup out. Its still hard
to belive its gonna raise up the water temp in extreme cold weather
and a large volume of water......

I knew a fellow who used to pull water up and circulate it in winter
to keep his pond from freezing. It was large enough to have a l;arge
impact from ground temps on the bottom which were above freezing. His
pond was the only one that was around that never had any ice on it.
This was when I lived a bit further north. Its the same principal that
they use in the freshwater boat slips to keep ice from freezing and
damaging the hulls..........they submerge a propeller type device to
pull up warmer water from the depths and mix it in and around the
surface water..... I guess just 1 deg or so is sufficient to make a
difference

I still can not get over a 100 watt heater though! ;-)


-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!

On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 14:11:02 -0600, Tristan
wrote:

I stil need to check that 100 watt heater setup out. Its still hard
to belive its gonna raise up the water temp in extreme cold weather
and a large volume of water......

It only keeps a hole open in the middle of it, and from the sounds of the
person on TFA, either her's died or it doesn't do extreme weather. I have
heard that a Laguna 200 watt is notorious for dying (they look very much
the same). Since it has a nice little hole at the top, I put an airstone
down it, so I have double coverage. The koi ponds get 1000 watts though.

I still can not get over a 100 watt heater though! ;-)

Do you remember Greg Bickal? He used to build these little floating houses
and inside would be two 25 watt light bulb. http://bickal.home.mchsi.com/

And if you haven't visited his website lately, he's done some more really
cool stuff. Lots of pictures, and the koi breeding is very
interesting, plus check out his koi house (I want one)! ~ jan

ahhh ha. Yes I know Greg Very well......
Bickals DIY Koi out of Iowa.....

I seem to recall those little houses that used the heat off a light
bulb. Iowa does get some extreme weather too. I may see Greg in
Orlando this year, as I am hoping to get to the Orlando show......

I do not have any faith in Laguna anything. I tend to view their
stuff as entry level aimed at folks that just happen to be in a big
box or water garden store and see the "Complete Kit for watergarden"
setup on the shelf and hubby and wifey just can not resist the pretty
pictures and buy it. I am not saying its junk, but I never had any
good luck with it. Another infamous brand is CAL pump.....dunno if
they changed any, but they were pityfull in terms of reliability.

I tend to lean to Hozelock Titans or Danner Mag Drives (pondmasters)
myself for a submersible pump. I'm just glad I do not have to deal
with weather extremes like freezing weather......

I came across a super deal on pumps a few months back. We had some
super big rainfalls and the numerous creeks and river flooded lots of
areas out. The areas that got inundated were the high rent district of
town, and most all those high dollar houses have koi ponds.......well
at least ponds with plants anyhow....Well needless to say a lot of
external pump vaults got wet.The local pond maintenance company here
who also owns the only pond and fish and aquatic plants as well as
being a huge nursery supply, merely pulled the pumps and replaced
them with new pumps. I happened to be up at the nursery picking up 2
cypress trees and other plants and noticed a pile of pumps etc at the
dumpster. I inquired and they said have at it, so I loaded them all up
and drug them home. I viewed that pile of pumps as, it was highly
unlikely a pump and motor would be bad at the same time, so I was
bound to be able to put something together out of them all. I had a
total of 11 Sequence pumps.......IIRC. I pulled em all apart and all
had water in the motors. I cleaned and dried them all, replaced
bearings in most, which I happend to have in my scrounge, and I got
all l pumps back in operating condition. I ran and checked each pump,
and left them run pumping water up a 2" pipe to create head pressure
etc out of my pond for 72 hours and they all ran nice and quiet and no
leaks.......I sold a few and used the rest on my replumbing project on
my quarantine tanks by my one pond. I used to have one pump providing
water into the QT tanks now each ha its o wn pump so I can now isolate
each tank and still maintain filtering capability. My quarantine tanks
are concrete burial vaults I picked up a few years back that were
chipped or cracked......and were destined to be busted up and dumped
ina landfill...I got em for the hauling away.....and patched the
cracks up and drilled holes as needed and turned em into QT
tanks.......


One nice thing about a Danner is they can be run dry or submerged.



On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 21:39:53 GMT, ~ jan
wrote:

On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 14:11:02 -0600, Tristan
wrote:

I stil need to check that 100 watt heater setup out. Its still hard
to belive its gonna raise up the water temp in extreme cold weather
and a large volume of water......

It only keeps a hole open in the middle of it, and from the sounds of the
person on TFA, either her's died or it doesn't do extreme weather. I have
heard that a Laguna 200 watt is notorious for dying (they look very much
the same). Since it has a nice little hole at the top, I put an airstone
down it, so I have double coverage. The koi ponds get 1000 watts though.

I still can not get over a 100 watt heater though! ;-)

Do you remember Greg Bickal? He used to build these little floating houses
and inside would be two 25 watt light bulb. http://bickal.home.mchsi.com/

And if you haven't visited his website lately, he's done some more really
cool stuff. Lots of pictures, and the koi breeding is very
interesting, plus check out his koi house (I want one)! ~ jan



-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!

On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 16:02:19 -0600, Tristan wrote:

the pump and vault story.

Ahmazing!!! ~ jan