The 5 lionhead goldfish in the 150g outdoor kiddy-pool pond came through the
first killing frost in excellent condition. The ice melted and there they
swam. Proof once again fancy goldfish are as hardy as Shubunkins and
comets. The water-bubble eyed GF are also fine in Tank #3 (650g). These
tanks get sun in the afternoon in winter. Water in both have always
remained crystal clear.
--
ZB....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*

Somewere my news server must be missing posts like your server is so
famous for, as I do not recally anyone asking about hose lionhead fish
Carol. Or do you just seem to have a penchant to start a conversation
/ topic now that your fixing to be history and trying to worm your way
into the hearts of those in charge?



On Fri, 15 Dec 2006 23:20:23 -0600, Zëbulon
wrote:

The 5 lionhead goldfish in the 150g outdoor kiddy-pool pond came through the
first killing frost in excellent condition. The ice melted and there they
swam. Proof once again fancy goldfish are as hardy as Shubunkins and
comets. The water-bubble eyed GF are also fine in Tank #3 (650g). These
tanks get sun in the afternoon in winter. Water in both have always
remained crystal clear.



-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!

Sheesh, yet more assinine scioentifc data spewed from an idiot without
any basis or control top abck it up. I seriously doubt the water in
those kiddie pools froze to any substantial depth with a heavy frost.
A skim coat at most......send those fancy guinea pigs to a person who
lives up in the cold mid west or northcountry CArola nd see if the
results are the same come April or May of next year. Your assinine
posts as such do nothing to help folks try and make a decision to leat
their goldies inor out during the cold months, and what little y may
find works or does not work for you is far from being sufficient to
sway folks on what they need to do espeically when its proven the
fancy types do not far well overall in frozen ponds..........

On Fri, 15 Dec 2006 23:20:23 -0600, Zëbulon
wrote:

The 5 lionhead goldfish in the 150g outdoor kiddy-pool pond came through the
first killing frost in excellent condition. The ice melted and there they
swam. Proof once again fancy goldfish are as hardy as Shubunkins and
comets. The water-bubble eyed GF are also fine in Tank #3 (650g). These
tanks get sun in the afternoon in winter. Water in both have always
remained crystal clear.



-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!

What the heck JAn..how dare you find fault in our resident CArol
Gulleys scientific house of fish research. I am sure she has
sufficiently researched thjis issue and did not want to bore tha
masses with her found data, and only presented the main facts that
wold benefit most. How dare you find fault with her. Its that secret
forumula of mixed dog and cat food with a special touch of catfish or
trout chow that makes those puny incapable fish into
survivors.......with all that extra body fat.....




On Sat, 16 Dec 2006 17:27:03 GMT, ~ janj wrote:

On Sat, 16 Dec 2006 10:39:07 -0600, Tristan
wrote:

Removed personal attack, keeping main idea:

I seriously doubt the water in
those kiddie pools froze to any substantial depth with a heavy frost.
A skim coat at most......send those fancy guinea pigs to a person who
lives up in the cold mid west or northcountry and see if the
results are the same come April or May of next year. Your
posts as such do nothing to help folks try and make a decision to leat
their goldies inor out during the cold months, and what little y may
find works or does not work for you is far from being sufficient to
sway folks on what they need to do espeically when its proven the
fancy types do not far well overall in frozen ponds..........

Regarding fancy goldfish, though some will winter over.... the proof is if
they make it through to next summer. Surviving a mild freeze or even most
of the winter is not proof of hardiness, imo, as it is usually the
fluctuating temperatures in spring, when their immune system is down and
they're weak from not feeding, that can do them in. ~ jan



-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!

On Sat, 16 Dec 2006 10:39:07 -0600, Tristan
wrote:

Removed personal attack, keeping main idea:

I seriously doubt the water in
those kiddie pools froze to any substantial depth with a heavy frost.
A skim coat at most......send those fancy guinea pigs to a person who
lives up in the cold mid west or northcountry and see if the
results are the same come April or May of next year. Your
posts as such do nothing to help folks try and make a decision to leat
their goldies inor out during the cold months, and what little y may
find works or does not work for you is far from being sufficient to
sway folks on what they need to do espeically when its proven the
fancy types do not far well overall in frozen ponds..........

Regarding fancy goldfish, though some will winter over.... the proof is if
they make it through to next summer. Surviving a mild freeze or even most
of the winter is not proof of hardiness, imo, as it is usually the
fluctuating temperatures in spring, when their immune system is down and
they're weak from not feeding, that can do them in. ~ jan

Come on Jan admit it......you want a piece of carols ass so bad you
can taste it all the way out there where your at.


Ladies and gentlemen and fellow ponders.........in this corner we have
Jan......a koi person and moderator, and her competition, Carol aka
Koi Lo Gulley hailing form where ever her last husband dropped her off
at but currently Tennessee. This will be a 10 round title match with
the winner being crowned "Miss Rec.ponds" and the loser complelled
to post in alt.wackos



On Sat, 16 Dec 2006 17:27:03 GMT, in rec.ponds you wrote:

On Sat, 16 Dec 2006 10:39:07 -0600, Tristan
wrote:

Removed personal attack, keeping main idea:

I seriously doubt the water in
those kiddie pools froze to any substantial depth with a heavy frost.
A skim coat at most......send those fancy guinea pigs to a person who
lives up in the cold mid west or northcountry and see if the
results are the same come April or May of next year. Your
posts as such do nothing to help folks try and make a decision to leat
their goldies inor out during the cold months, and what little y may
find works or does not work for you is far from being sufficient to
sway folks on what they need to do espeically when its proven the
fancy types do not far well overall in frozen ponds..........

Regarding fancy goldfish, though some will winter over.... the proof is if
they make it through to next summer. Surviving a mild freeze or even most
of the winter is not proof of hardiness, imo, as it is usually the
fluctuating temperatures in spring, when their immune system is down and
they're weak from not feeding, that can do them in. ~ jan
On Sat, 16 Dec 2006 17:27:03 GMT, ~ janj wrote:

On Sat, 16 Dec 2006 10:39:07 -0600, Tristan
wrote:

Removed personal attack, keeping main idea:

I seriously doubt the water in
those kiddie pools froze to any substantial depth with a heavy frost.
A skim coat at most......send those fancy guinea pigs to a person who
lives up in the cold mid west or northcountry and see if the
results are the same come April or May of next year. Your
posts as such do nothing to help folks try and make a decision to leat
their goldies inor out during the cold months, and what little y may
find works or does not work for you is far from being sufficient to
sway folks on what they need to do espeically when its proven the
fancy types do not far well overall in frozen ponds..........

Regarding fancy goldfish, though some will winter over.... the proof is if
they make it through to next summer. Surviving a mild freeze or even most
of the winter is not proof of hardiness, imo, as it is usually the
fluctuating temperatures in spring, when their immune system is down and
they're weak from not feeding, that can do them in. ~ jan



-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!

"~ janj" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 16 Dec 2006 10:39:07 -0600, Tristan
wrote:

Removed personal attack, keeping main idea:

I seriously doubt the water in
those kiddie pools froze to any substantial depth with a heavy frost.
A skim coat at most......send those fancy guinea pigs to a person who
lives up in the cold mid west or northcountry and see if the
results are the same come April or May of next year. Your
posts as such do nothing to help folks try and make a decision to leat
their goldies inor out during the cold months, and what little y may
find works or does not work for you is far from being sufficient to
sway folks on what they need to do espeically when its proven the
fancy types do not far well overall in frozen ponds..........

Regarding fancy goldfish, though some will winter over.... the proof is if
they make it through to next summer.
==========================
Jan, they've been out there since early fall. The bubble eyes have been out
there since last summer and it was a hot one. We shade the ponds if the
water goes over 90F and add extra aeration. We have some pretty hot summers
here. The water is also partly shaded with water lily leaves. We had a
good freeze here with an inch of ice on all the smaller tanks and pools.
The inground ponds (800 and 2000g) had only a coating of ice. The last few
days have been in the 60s. I'm in zone 6.

Surviving a mild freeze or even most
of the winter is not proof of hardiness, imo,

What would be then? What would you consider hardy? I think healthy fancy
GF are no less hardy then the common pond GF. That's been *my experience*
in zone 6 since 1995. It was in the teens at night and there was an inch or
so of ice on the tubs for days. Bubblers kept an opening. I lost the
original Orandas and fantails to predators if you remember. I had Moors and
Orandas and one Pearlscale out there for several years in a 150g kiddy-pool
pond. At that time the problem was parasites if you recall. Gill
mites/flukes. With the help of Dr. Johnson and Rick Hess parasites are a
thing of the past here. :-)) I will always be grateful to them.

as it is usually the
fluctuating temperatures in spring, when their immune system is down and
they're weak from not feeding, that can do them in. ~ jan

I'll keep everyone posted on that. :-) The inground ponds don't have the
same fluctuating temps as these above ground tubs. Due to an occasional
frog getting through the nets, I wouldn't keep really *valuable* fish
outside anyway. These are real nice lionheads and bubble eyes but all were
under $20 locally. Another thing I've noticed. The water-bubble-eye
compete for food just fine with their faster brothers, the Shubunkins.

If any die I'll let the group know - just as I did with the little koi who
was gill-netted and killed by the net over the water lily's pot.
--
ZB....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*

"Zëbulon" wrote in message
...

"~ janj" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 16 Dec 2006 10:39:07 -0600, Tristan
wrote:

Removed personal attack, keeping main idea:

I seriously doubt the water in
those kiddie pools froze to any substantial depth with a heavy frost.
A skim coat at most......send those fancy guinea pigs to a person who
lives up in the cold mid west or northcountry and see if the
results are the same come April or May of next year. Your
posts as such do nothing to help folks try and make a decision to leat
their goldies inor out during the cold months, and what little y may
find works or does not work for you is far from being sufficient to
sway folks on what they need to do espeically when its proven the
fancy types do not far well overall in frozen ponds..........

Regarding fancy goldfish, though some will winter over.... the proof is
if
they make it through to next summer.
==========================
Jan, they've been out there since early fall. The bubble eyes have been
out there since last summer and it was a hot one. We shade the ponds if
the water goes over 90F and add extra aeration. We have some pretty hot
summers here. The water is also partly shaded with water lily leaves. We
had a good freeze here with an inch of ice on all the smaller tanks and
pools. The inground ponds (800 and 2000g) had only a coating of ice. The
last few days have been in the 60s. I'm in zone 6.

Surviving a mild freeze or even most
of the winter is not proof of hardiness, imo,

What would be then? What would you consider hardy? I think healthy fancy
GF are no less hardy then the common pond GF. That's been *my experience*
in zone 6 since 1995. It was in the teens at night and there was an inch
or so of ice on the tubs for days. Bubblers kept an opening. I lost the
original Orandas and fantails to predators if you remember. I had Moors
and Orandas and one Pearlscale out there for several years in a 150g
kiddy-pool pond. At that time the problem was parasites if you recall.
Gill mites/flukes. With the help of Dr. Johnson and Rick Hess parasites
are a thing of the past here. :-)) I will always be grateful to them.

as it is usually the
fluctuating temperatures in spring, when their immune system is down and
they're weak from not feeding, that can do them in. ~ jan

I'll keep everyone posted on that. :-) The inground ponds don't have
the same fluctuating temps as these above ground tubs. Due to an
occasional frog getting through the nets, I wouldn't keep really
*valuable* fish outside anyway. These are real nice lionheads and bubble
eyes but all were under $20 locally. Another thing I've noticed. The
water-bubble-eye compete for food just fine with their faster brothers,
the Shubunkins.

If any die I'll let the group know - just as I did with the little koi who
was gill-netted and killed by the net over the water lily's pot.
--
ZB....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*

My pond fish are strictly common goldies, shubunkin,
comets, and minnows - the usual hardy species. But
I enjoyed reading about ZB's experiences with the
species generally considered less hardy, as well as
Jan's cautions.

Many of the posts I've read on rec.ponds have been
about fish (like koi) or structures (like waterfalls) that
I have no intention of adding to my ponds. But I
think that's the attraction of hobby-specific
newsgroups, that we can read and discuss a wide
range of interests, not just our own personal narrow
interests/experiences/beliefs.

The exchange above is a good example. I don't
know who's "right" about goldfish hardiness; the
point is the exchange of information is interesting
and potentially useful.

Gail

"Gail Futoran" wrote in message
...
"Zëbulon" wrote in message
...
I'll keep everyone posted on that. :-) The inground ponds don't have
the same fluctuating temps as these above ground tubs. Due to an
occasional frog getting through the nets, I wouldn't keep really
*valuable* fish outside anyway. These are real nice lionheads and bubble
eyes but all were under $20 locally. Another thing I've noticed. The
water-bubble-eye compete for food just fine with their faster brothers,
the Shubunkins.

If any die I'll let the group know - just as I did with the little koi
who was gill-netted and killed by the net over the water lily's pot.
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*

My pond fish are strictly common goldies, shubunkin,
comets, and minnows - the usual hardy species. But
I enjoyed reading about ZB's experiences with the
species generally considered less hardy, as well as
Jan's cautions.

Because of predators I wouldn't keep really expensive GF outdoors no matter
the climate. I also believe (speaking only for myself) they have more
chance of being parasitized out doors. Even the nets don't keep out bird
droppings, newts, small frogs and small snakes. Can they carry parasites
from one pond to another? I don't know.... I can't see why not.


Many of the posts I've read on rec.ponds have been
about fish (like koi) or structures (like waterfalls) that
I have no intention of adding to my ponds. But I
think that's the attraction of hobby-specific
newsgroups, that we can read and discuss a wide
range of interests, not just our own personal narrow
interests/experiences/beliefs.

The exchange above is a good example. I don't
know who's "right" about goldfish hardiness; the
point is the exchange of information is interesting
and potentially useful.

Gail

I've learned a lot on this NG over the years. You can always try a few
inexpensive fancy GF and see how they do in your own area, under your
conditions. Although my comets and Shubunkins always made it through the
winter here in the ponds, they didn't always survive in the barrels.
--
ZB....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*

how about that......

On Sat, 16 Dec 2006 16:29:00 -0600, Zëbulon
wrote:

snip a bunch of carols lies and crap

Even the nets don't keep out bird
droppings, newts, small frogs and small snakes. Can they carry parasites
from one pond to another? I don't know.... I can't see why not.
tsj
snip some more.

After many many posts with folks telling you that nets will not keep a
snake big or smallouyt whats this a lie or is my eyes deceiving
me......Carol Gulley saying a net and keeping snakes out.......why all
of a sudden are yu chaning yur mind carol.....trying to be on your
best behavior and show you actually do know right from wrong or did
Randy knock the heck out of you again?




-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!

"Zëbulon" wrote in message
...
[big snip]
I've learned a lot on this NG over the years. You can always try a few
inexpensive fancy GF and see how they do in your own area, under your
conditions. Although my comets and Shubunkins always made it through the
winter here in the ponds, they didn't always survive in the barrels.

The problem I have is my goldfish tend to breed, then
what do I do? My tropical fish (indoors, in aquariums)
are the species that are difficult to breed, so I don't have
to worry about overpopulation.

The first goldfish in my inground pond was "accidental".
I had moved some minnows over from another pond
and didn't realize I was also moving a baby goldfish.
I've since added a few more goldfish, which of course
will compound my population problem...

I think the wildlife keeps the minnow population in
check; at least, I don't seem to have an
overabundance of minnows, and they do breed
like rabbits.

ZB....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*

Gail

"Gail Futoran" wrote in message
...
"Zëbulon" wrote in message
...
[big snip]
I've learned a lot on this NG over the years. You can always try a few
inexpensive fancy GF and see how they do in your own area, under your
conditions. Although my comets and Shubunkins always made it through
the winter here in the ponds, they didn't always survive in the barrels.

The problem I have is my goldfish tend to breed, then
what do I do? My tropical fish (indoors, in aquariums)
are the species that are difficult to breed, so I don't have
to worry about overpopulation.

There's only one way I know to keep that from happening and that's to sex
them before you turn them lose in your pond or whatever. Select all males!
They get those white bumps or stars in their gill covers. A dead giveaway.
:-) My indoor Orandas are already showing these stars so they're easy to
sex now.

The first goldfish in my inground pond was "accidental".
I had moved some minnows over from another pond
and didn't realize I was also moving a baby goldfish.
I've since added a few more goldfish, which of course
will compound my population problem...

That's for sure. They're extremely prolific and can quickly overpopulate a
pond.

I think the wildlife keeps the minnow population in
check; at least, I don't seem to have an
overabundance of minnows, and they do breed
like rabbits.

I assume you mean rosy-red minnows? Their numbers are slowly dwindling here
for some reason. I have a few dark ones left but all the gold ones are
gone. I've not found any dead ones so think some predator is picking them
off.
--
ZB....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*

"Zëbulon" wrote in message
...

"Gail Futoran" wrote in message
...
[snip]
I think the wildlife keeps the minnow population in
check; at least, I don't seem to have an
overabundance of minnows, and they do breed
like rabbits.

I assume you mean rosy-red minnows?

Yep. Sorry, I should have specified. I recall when
I bought the first batch the salesperson asking what
I was going to feed them to, and I replied they were
going into my pond. I got an odd look. Ok, so
feeder fish probably aren't the best stock for ponds,
but I'm a minimalist ponder, and the minnows have
done great, despite their dubious beginnings. I have
few rosy reds left; most are now the steelhead color
(if that's the right word).

Their numbers are slowly dwindling here for some reason. I have a few dark
ones left but all the gold ones are gone. I've not found any dead ones so
think some predator is picking them off.
--
ZB....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*

Gail

"Gail Futoran" wrote in message
...
"Zëbulon" wrote in message
I assume you mean rosy-red minnows?

Yep. Sorry, I should have specified. I recall when
I bought the first batch the salesperson asking what
I was going to feed them to, and I replied they were
going into my pond. I got an odd look. Ok, so
feeder fish probably aren't the best stock for ponds,
but I'm a minimalist ponder, and the minnows have
done great, despite their dubious beginnings. I have
few rosy reds left; most are now the steelhead color
(if that's the right word).
=====================
These minnows are great little fish for keeping the mosquito population in
control for those who don't want goldfish or koi, or who have small ponds.
There were two conditions where they didn't do well for me. One was a pool
out in the full sun that became too warm in summer. It was too far from the
house to aerate and I think the heat killed them as they did die off one at
a time. The other is the 3 barrels beside the iris bed. The only thing I
can think of there is the lack of aeration as the water doesn't get all that
warm in summer. It may have been lack of aeration alone in both cases.

They did fine in a partially shaded, aerated and filtered in-ground 150g
pool closer to the house. I haven't found a dead one in there yet, but
their population is dwindling. It's the only pond that's not netted so
anything can get in there. One day I found a box turtle on the filter. :-)
--
ZB....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*

Who gives a shit about your minnows, Predation is part and parcel of
nature so get used to it.
On Sun, 17 Dec 2006 14:56:22 GMT, "Gail Futoran"
wrote:

"Zëbulon" wrote in message
...

"Gail Futoran" wrote in message
...
[snip]
I think the wildlife keeps the minnow population in
check; at least, I don't seem to have an
overabundance of minnows, and they do breed
like rabbits.

I assume you mean rosy-red minnows?

Yep. Sorry, I should have specified. I recall when
I bought the first batch the salesperson asking what
I was going to feed them to, and I replied they were
going into my pond. I got an odd look. Ok, so
feeder fish probably aren't the best stock for ponds,
but I'm a minimalist ponder, and the minnows have
done great, despite their dubious beginnings. I have
few rosy reds left; most are now the steelhead color
(if that's the right word).

Their numbers are slowly dwindling here for some reason. I have a few dark
ones left but all the gold ones are gone. I've not found any dead ones so
think some predator is picking them off.
--
ZB....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*

Gail




-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!