On 06 Dec 2006 00:31:11 GMT, wrote:

Well. you may no longer wish to have a civil discourse with me, as I am a
staunch defender of the 2nd Amendment. I bought my first gun at age 12,
have been shooting since I was 7 and own a shotgun, a couple of pistols and
several rifles, with enough ammo for each to last beyond my death (I'm 71).

I don't know why I wouldn't wish to have a civil discourse with you, in
sight is a little hat I got by being a Charter Founder of the Second
Amendment Task Force. Besides, my brother is a retired Marine mustang, we
could talk about him if nothing else.

One of the main differences between me and the one to whom you responded is
that I am a responsible gun owner, I practice regularly and I respect and
obey the law. And I don't think I'm God!

I had a heron problem about 10 years ago. The buzzard got 2 of my koi and a
goldfish! I put up bird net and have had no problem since.

I had an alligator in my back pond last year. Turns out it ate all the
turtles and fish back there. A net wouldn't have helped at all, in fact, I
don't know what would. Fortunately it just died of natural causes, and I
didn't have to figure out how to deal with it.

Galen Hekhuis NpD, JFR, GWA
Illiterate? Write for FREE help

Galen Hekhuis wrote:
On 06 Dec 2006 00:31:11 GMT, wrote:

Well. you may no longer wish to have a civil discourse with me, as I am
a staunch defender of the 2nd Amendment. I bought my first gun at age
12, have been shooting since I was 7 and own a shotgun, a couple of
pistols and several rifles, with enough ammo for each to last beyond my
death (I'm 71).

I don't know why I wouldn't wish to have a civil discourse with you, in
sight is a little hat I got by being a Charter Founder of the Second
Amendment Task Force. Besides, my brother is a retired Marine mustang,
we could talk about him if nothing else.

I was an acive duty Marine briefly during the Korean War. I greatly admire
mustang officers. Please thank your brother for me. Semper Fi, bro. I owe
ya a drink!

One of the main differences between me and the one to whom you responded
is that I am a responsible gun owner, I practice regularly and I respect
and obey the law. And I don't think I'm God!

I had a heron problem about 10 years ago. The buzzard got 2 of my koi
and a goldfish! I put up bird net and have had no problem since.

I had an alligator in my back pond last year. Turns out it ate all the
turtles and fish back there. A net wouldn't have helped at all, in fact,
I don't know what would. Fortunately it just died of natural causes, and
I didn't have to figure out how to deal with it.

No alligators out here in So Cal. That's where I would consider shooting
it, as they make good eatin', too. Quaranteed recipe on request. ;-)

--
Nick. Support severely wounded and disabled Veterans and their families!

Thank a Veteran and Support Our Troops. You are not forgotten. Thanks ! ! !
~Semper Fi~

On Wed, 06 Dec 2006 00:33:07 +0000, Gill Passman wrote:

[...]
The only point that I see of this post is to try and see what may or
might not get past any moderators on a moderated rec.ponds...not a
legitimate question but a bit of a game.....

And that will be a valid line of questioning, although premature at this
point.

I believe you have your answer...although I haven't done this in the
right order but I'm tired....the question is valid and on-topic.....so
why wouldn't it get posted even though the sentiments expressed are
designed to be imflammatory ......if it went further down the line then
maybe it would get banned....but I'm sure that you are not even slightly
serious in the solutions you are proposing....you are playing a game to
see what would happen....and that is fine.....you got answers on the
unmoderated group....most valid as well....I'm sorry, but I don't see
how moderation should impact this post....apart from thinking (sorry)
that the post was deliberately made to inflame people.....which afterall
is your intention albeit just to test how the moderators would react...

Gill

PS I have no idea whatsoever how this would get through any moderation
process but once the RFD gets published, and we do need to wait for this
rather than speculate, we can then argue about the moderation
policy...rather than trying to preempt this....

Exactly. Once the RFD is published, people will know exactly what
moderation policies and moderators are being proposed. At that time, I
recommend posing hypothetical questions to these moderators about how they
would deal with certain posts. You can either make posts up or find actual
posts. Not only does this help you understand how the proposed moderators
think, it gives them practice in making moderation decisions. The sort of
thing that "Tristan" has been posting will be quite useful for this
process. Thank you, Tristan. And thanks to you, Gill, for drawing
attention to this.

--
Jayne

On 06 Dec 2006 00:56:55 GMT, wrote:

I was an acive duty Marine briefly during the Korean War. I greatly admire
mustang officers. Please thank your brother for me. Semper Fi, bro. I owe
ya a drink!

I never even made NCO in the Air Force. The highest I made was A1C, as
they called it then. My Dad was an officer, my grandfather was an officer.
I kept trying to tell them that it was a little bit different being
enlisted. My brother understood and never forgot. I served under a lot of
different officers, but only a very, very few were enlisted once. I think
it makes a difference. I've got a hell of a lot of respect for that.

No alligators out here in So Cal. That's where I would consider shooting
it, as they make good eatin', too. Quaranteed recipe on request. ;-)

You can't even look at them cross-eyed here. Well, that may be changing.
They had a limited alligator hunt this year, but it was quite expensive and
there were all kinds of hoops to jump through. There's talk about
loosening up the protections they currently have, there are quite a few of
them now. It's really tough to peacefully co-exist with them.

Galen Hekhuis NpD, JFR, GWA
Illiterate? Write for FREE help

Galen Hekhuis wrote:

On Tue, 05 Dec 2006 16:10:49 -0600, Tristan
wrote:

Now just to set the record straight, doyou really think this post
would have ever gotten into a moderated group?

To set the record straight, as you put it, your original post, Kathy's
follow up, your follow up to that follow up, my follow up... you get the
picture, they all would be "allowed" if I were the moderator.

And to set the record even straighter, we've already discussed _exactly_
this sort of advice, specifically because the one illegal recommendation
that comes often on this group is the advice to kill a Heron (killing most
of the other predators is much easier, legally). The consensus is that the
correct way to deal with illegal, or just plain stupid, advice is in the
newsgroup, not the moderation process.
--
derek

On Tue, 05 Dec 2006 22:05:31 -0500, Vorian Atreides
wrote:

wrote:
Galen Hekhuis wrote:
Tristan wrote:
[ . . . ]

Galen, have you looked at to whom you're responding? Why bother? Kf him!


I hope you are not the clown sending e-mail to kill file everyone you
and your Cabal doesn't agree with.

Funny you should mention that, I just bought a clown nose and a clown wig.
But, no, I'm not the one sending email.

Galen Hekhuis NpD, JFR, GWA
Illiterate? Write for FREE help

wrote in message
...
I had a heron problem about 10 years ago. The buzzard got 2 of my koi and
a
goldfish! I put up bird net and have had no problem since.
================
We found the fine black bird netting from ACE Hardware is strong and not all
that visible. After awhile you don't even see it. It's kept everything out
of our ponds. We have all kinds of wildlife here including King Fishers,
herons, cranes and other water birds. I didn't bother with the motion
sprayers because they haven't worked for some of the local ponders I'd
spoken to over the years. King Fishers hit too fast to be effected by a
spray. One said the herons learned to fish in front of the thing out of the
line of spray and snakes and bullfrogs weren't deterred at all. If you're
off at work or away for the weekend and the hose pops, you're in for one
hellacious water bill.
--
KL....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*

Galen Hekhuis wrote:

I'll answer anything I have knowledge of, and that isn't a whole lot of
things so I have to jump at every chance I get. I have some hot buttons
too, and guns is one of them. One of my hottest buttons is caves, but
people rarely press that one, so I have to make do with some of the lesser
ones.


So, if I'm spelunking and see a heron attacking some cave koi, would
you suggest I bag 'em with a .22 or a 12ga?

(sorry, I just had to.)

It was really funny in my head but might not be so now that it's typed.

steve

On 6 Dec 2006 08:06:01 -0800, "default" wrote:

So, if I'm spelunking and see a heron attacking some cave koi, would
you suggest I bag 'em with a .22 or a 12ga?

First off, if you're "spelunking" you don't do it much. I've never heard
another caver refer to "spelunking" except with a bit of a sigh. It's true
that we often are members of the National Speleological Society, but cavers
almost universally refer to themselves as "cavers," not "spelunkers."
Second, almost all cavers adhere to the philosophy of "Take nothing but
pictures, leave nothing but tracks, kill nothing but time." Third, using
any type of gun underground is a very bad idea. You are surrounded by
rock. There is an extremely high possibility of ricochet. Also the sound
would be deafening. You might be able to get away with a .22 but the
report of a 12 ga would probably cause permanent damage. Fourth, it is
quite illegal in many states to remove anything from a cave.

(sorry, I just had to.)

It was really funny in my head but might not be so now that it's typed.

No sweat. I mentioned that caves were one of my "hot buttons." :^)

Galen Hekhuis NpD, JFR, GWA
Illiterate? Write for FREE help

On 6 Dec 2006 08:06:01 -0800, "default"
wrote:


Galen Hekhuis wrote:

I'll answer anything I have knowledge of, and that isn't a whole lot of
things so I have to jump at every chance I get. I have some hot buttons
too, and guns is one of them. One of my hottest buttons is caves, but
people rarely press that one, so I have to make do with some of the lesser
ones.


So, if I'm spelunking and see a heron attacking some cave koi, would
you suggest I bag 'em with a .22 or a 12ga?

(sorry, I just had to.)

It was really funny in my head but might not be so now that it's typed.

steve


Give it up Steve.......your post went right over Galens
head.............most folks here are too narrow minded to know a post
that was meant to be humorous from those making a real statement.
Whats the term....stiff lipped bunch that they are! Hell Galen and
NIck are stil scratching their heads or may be thier butts tryung to
figure out how it can possibly be legal to do things in other states
that is illegal where they live......duh!

On Wed, 06 Dec 2006 11:22:33 -0600, Tristan
wrote:

Give it up Steve.......your post went right over Galens
head.............most folks here are too narrow minded to know a post
that was meant to be humorous from those making a real statement.
Whats the term....stiff lipped bunch that they are! Hell Galen and
NIck are stil scratching their heads or may be thier butts tryung to
figure out how it can possibly be legal to do things in other states
that is illegal where they live......duh!

Yeah, sometimes you wind up being the humorless jerk when you reflect that
somewhere, somehow, some idiot may take the suggestion seriously. Like I
say, caves are a real "hot button" item with me. You can really jerk my
wire by posting questions about caves. It is pretty much like shooting
fish in a barrel, but then you probably like that.

Galen Hekhuis NpD, JFR, GWA
Illiterate? Write for FREE help

Ok...this whole question of dealing with herons got me thinking - of
course in a "back yard" pond using nets and water spray is an option
(and I don't think shooting the things would be an option in a
residential area - in fact I can pretty much imagine what would happen)
but I wondered what would happen if the pond was much larger or even a
lake/loch...and if there was a commercial side to it. Obviously if fish
are being raised on a commercial basis having a heron or any other
predator taking fish becomes an issue if too frequent. Now, I know
nothing of the legality in the US but thought I'd find out what happens
on the trout farm where my Dad lives up in Scotland (herons are as much
of an issue over here as in the US)....apparently the herons are
tolerated as there is little that can be done about them - get rid of
one and another one turns up (bit like bad pennies I guess)....but they
do shoot at the cormorants - mainly to scare rather than kill....

Gill

If you can show y raise fish on a commercial basis (size of business
does not mean anyhting so yu can have 1/2 acre or 100 acres of say,
Catfish or tilapia you raise and "SELL" its not overly hard to get a
permit to shoot them. Arbitrarily shooting just to scare them even
with no intention on killing them or hitting them can get you in
trouble just the same as killing without a permit. Its called
harrassment, (just like what Carol does harrasses without killing) and
the migratory bird law states its illegal to harrass or disturb these
birds......So in all reality propane canons, sicking fido the dog on
them, physically chasing them off whle shouting obscenities at them,
or even use of a scarecrow sprinkler can be conceived as harrassment
and disturbing them. Odds are however no enforcement officer is gonna
do anything if you physically run them off or put your dog on them or
use a sprinkler, but I certainly would not get caught shooting to
scare them with a firearm or a bow and arrow or even a primitive spear
as in most places thats gonna get you in trouble. Fortunately just
talking to lots of wildlife enforcement offiers will tell you really
quick like enforcing certain laws is not on their list of priorities
or they will guide you to a legal way to do it.

For example what is illegal here is shooting coyotes form a elevated
tree stand etc and usuing an electronic predator call. Coyotes are a
big problem in this region, and law enforcement could care less if
you shoot from a tree stand and have a electronic caller.....Same
thing applies to herons in this region as well.They turn a blind eye.



On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 19:23:03 +0000, Gill Passman
wrote:


Ok...this whole question of dealing with herons got me thinking - of
course in a "back yard" pond using nets and water spray is an option
(and I don't think shooting the things would be an option in a
residential area - in fact I can pretty much imagine what would happen)
but I wondered what would happen if the pond was much larger or even a
lake/loch...and if there was a commercial side to it. Obviously if fish
are being raised on a commercial basis having a heron or any other
predator taking fish becomes an issue if too frequent. Now, I know
nothing of the legality in the US but thought I'd find out what happens
on the trout farm where my Dad lives up in Scotland (herons are as much
of an issue over here as in the US)....apparently the herons are
tolerated as there is little that can be done about them - get rid of
one and another one turns up (bit like bad pennies I guess)....but they
do shoot at the cormorants - mainly to scare rather than kill....

Gill

"Gill Passman" wrote in message
...

Ok...this whole question of dealing with herons got me thinking - of
course in a "back yard" pond using nets and water spray is an option (and
I don't think shooting the things would be an option in a residential
area - in fact I can pretty much imagine what would happen) but I wondered
what would happen if the pond was much larger or even a lake/loch...and if
there was a commercial side to it. Obviously if fish are being raised on a
commercial basis having a heron or any other predator taking fish becomes
an issue if too frequent. Now, I know nothing of the legality in the US
but thought I'd find out what happens on the trout farm where my Dad lives
up in Scotland (herons are as much of an issue over here as in the
US)....apparently the herons are tolerated as there is little that can be
done about them - get rid of one and another one turns up (bit like bad
pennies I guess)....but they do shoot at the cormorants - mainly to scare
rather than kill....

Gill

There's a suggestion I've often seen in gardening books and groups: If you
want to deter birds and rabbits from eating your desirable crops, plant
something they really like in another part of your garden and let them have
at it! They will still eat some of your desirable crops, but maybe if you
also have mild deterrence there, most of the damage will be done to the free
meal you offered them.

Anyway, for large backyard ponds and commercial operations, I wonder if that
kind of approach would work, or would you find yourself attracting ever
larger flocks of herons?

Gail
rec.ponder since April 2003

As both herons and comorants eat primarily fish I very much doubt that
approach would work unless you set up a pond of sacrificial fish and
made it a bit more tempting than those you are trying to
preserve.....it's the fish they want....It has to be said when watching
herons around the lake at the place I used to work they tended to be
solo operators but I don't know if this is the norm - but might explain
why placing a fake heron sculpture also seems to work with a smaller
pond....but my guess is you'd need an awful lot of these around a
lake/loch....We're going up there just after christmas...now I can't
wait to interrogate the owner on his policy with this...along with an
estimate of how many fish he loses to herons and what the cost
implications are....and Yep, once I find out I will report back to
rec.ponds even if it isn't moderated....

Gill
rec.pond lurker since Nov 2003 and very occassional poster - don't have
a pond at the moment just a great interest in them