"Priscilla McCullough" wrote in message
news
Humm, my pond kit don't have a nitrate test.
Its just the 3 I mentioned plus salt, I don't use salt unless fish look
sick.
Priss

You need to get a nitrate kit. Nitrates are responsible for algae blooms
in garden pondsmore often than anything else.

" George" wrote in message
news:c59Ge.217981$xm3.162990@attbi_s21...

"Priscilla McCullough" wrote in message
...
Nitrite is 0.

What is your nitrate level, not your nitrite level?

PH is 7.5
I just cleaned my settlement and filters out 2 weeks ago.
I've cleaned them twice since March.
I can't find Aquazyme here.
I have rode all over looking for it.
I know the guy at the pond store said my holds about 9,000 gals of
water.

You can order it online. Twelve ounces treats 10,000 gallons:

http://doityourself.com/store/u388850.htm

" George" wrote in message
news:1l5Ge.190014$x96.43037@attbi_s72...

"Priscilla McCullough" wrote in message
...
I bought some calcium bentonite yesterday.
I have green water in my pond and it won't clear.
Its been up and running since March.
15x15 4ft deep.
About 9 Koi of various sizes, none bigger than 13 inchs.
It has 3 bottomdrains witch goes into a 4x10 4ft settlement/filter
pond.
My pump is a Sequence External Self Priming Series 1500 - 5400 G.P.H
1/3 HP
The out take is a Venturi into the pond. I do have a small pipe also
that leads into a small veggie filter.
Water test shows.
Nitrite 0
Ammonia is 0
PH is between 7.0 and 7.5
I have a good bit of water lettuce and hyancits but no lillies.
I don't think lillies will grow that deep in water.
I live on the coast of Ga. and bird predators are many here.
My previous pond even with netting on the predator birds would stand
on plant shelves and pick out my fish.
So with this pond I didn't make shelves and haven't had any problems
with predators. But now its green water.
It gets really hot here also. My set up is just like a friend of
mine and his pond is crystal clear and he has a lot more Koi. Alot
bigger also.
The only difference is he has no trees in his yard and I do.
Should I let the pond be and wait it out? Seems like water would
clear by now though.
Or use the calcium bentonite and if I do, how do I use it?
Thanks,
Priss

Others have said that bentonite works. I only use it for planting
water plants, so I couldn't tell you if it works for that purpose.
Perhaps you need to have a large veggie filter. How often do you
clean out your settlement filter? What are your nitrate levels? You
could add Aquazyme according to directions and see if it solves your
problem. It works wonders for me. If you use Aquazyme, give it about
a month to work. And remembers, these things do take time, so have
patience.

I bought a new kit.
My readings are Amonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 0
Total hardness 10
Total alkalinity about 60
PH is between 6.5

Priss





"~ jan JJsPond.us" wrote in message
...
Jan, my water is very soft. We have a water softener/purification outside
that all our liners goes through.
I will go into town tomorrow and see about getting a KH test.
I have two rolls of washable filter media in the settlement pond. Its
Coarse, 1.5" thickness, 28" x 7 yds.
I feed twice a day, once in morning once in evening.
Usually at evening I give them frozen watermelon and peas/shrimp. Its been
really hot here.
The hyacinths hasn't done well this year, but the lettuce is. Albeit they
have brunt edges since its been near 100 or 100 the past month.
I haven't done any water changes except when I drained the settlement
chamber twice since March.
We have afternoon showers about once a week, then I add some water if pond
starts getting low from evaporation.
Thanks for trying to help.
Priss

That KH number will help a lot.

I do know when others have posted, in the past, that they have hose water
that goes thru a water softener, they've been told to by-pass it if
possible. Those doing the telling were more expert in water chemistry than
I.

Do you know why your outside water goes thru this purification/softener
system? I'm really thinking this may be your problem. Because otherwise,
it
sure sounds like you're doing everything right (except water changes which
doesn't matter currently considering the water source). If there is no way
to by-pass you will need a KH test and we can tell you how much BS to add,
etc. ~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

"Priscilla McCullough" wrote in message
...
I bought a new kit.
My readings are Amonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 0
Total hardness 10
Total alkalinity about 60
PH is between 6.5

Priss

Hmm. Total hardness indicates that the water is very soft. It should be
in the range of 60-100 ppm. Alkalinity is low, and would indicate low pH.
Your pH measurement (6.5) bears this out. You need to slowly raise the pH
and alkalinity over time (severla days to a week) to get it up to
acceptable levels. Ideally, your alkalinity should be between 80-100 ppm
for optimum buffering capacity. There are several ways you can do this.
The best/easiest way is to slowly add sodium bicarbonate over a period of
days to slowly raise the alkalinity, which should also help raise the pH.
In addition, you should add epsom salts to keep the magnesium/calcium
levels balanced, and raise total hardness. And finally, if you can get it
in your area, I would add some limestone rocks to any waterfall (or other
area of strong water flow) you might have. The limestone will help with
the buffering capacity, and slowly add calcium and trace elements to the
water.

This will help balance the water in your pond, but it may not have a direct
or immediate affect on your algae. Frankly, I'm a little surprised that
your nitrate reading is so low. Another possible culprit for your algae
problem would be high phosphorus (phosphorus can cause algae blooms), but
considering your other readings, this may not be an issue. The only advice
I can give you is to try to get these parameters balanced out and keep them
within acceptable levels. That is not as hard as it sounds if you execise
a little diligence and patience. I have found that having limestone in my
water flow helps maintain the alkalinity, general hardness and
calcium/magnesium levels over a long period of time, which will also help
maintain a stable pH. I believe you were the one who was using water from
your water softner to use as make up water in the pond. You should bypass
this softner and use straight city water (add de-chlor), which should have
more balanced buffering capacity, have a higher general hardness, and, one
would hope, a higher pH. Test your city water before it goes into your
softner to see if this is the case. I hope this helps.

On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 02:46:53 GMT, " George" wrote:
I have no idea what makes you say that you can't get a reading
with a regular nitrate kit, Jan. They've been standardized for many years.

American Pharmaceuticals, and the reason I say that is because the other
KHA in the club said his Nitrate kit wasn't working (his pond was green). I
asked if I could have it to test on my aquariums (which always have a
reading nitrate). Kit worked on those just fine.

It's a 9,000 gallon pond. She should rarely, if ever, have to do water
changes. Additions, yes. Changes, only if there is something dreadfully
wrong.

Sorry George, you're dreadfully wrong. Go read Norm Meck's article:
http://www.vcnet.com/koi_net/finalnet.html#waterchange regarding that. If
you don't believe him, then we'll agree to disagree, but I've taken the Koi
Health Advisor training thru AKCA, have you? ~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

I bought a new kit.
My readings are Amonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 0
Total hardness 10
Total alkalinity about 60
PH is between 6.5
Priss

Hi Priss,

You need to get your KH/alkalinity up, else your bacteria isn't going to be
working well and your pH is going to be swinging, bad for both critters and
filter. I think this is why you're have the algae problem.

Use 1 cup/1000 gallons of Baking Soda (mix in water, add slowing to pump
chamber (or at the end of filter) or add to water fall, or around the edges
of the pond). Wait 12 hours and measure KH again. You want to get it up to
at least 100. Unless you have a pressurized filter, then you want to go up
to 150.

Do get some koi clay. Between it and the BS you should be able to
counteract the affects of the purification system.

Do start doing, at least, 10% water changes 2-3 X month. I think with the
above, your pond will "pop" (clear) real quick. Once that happens you won't
be cleaning the filter like you currently are.

Baking Soda and Clay will have to be added on a regular basis as your
purification system is taking out vital minerals & other things koi need.
You might want to do a KH measurement on a sample of it, to see what the
buffering is after it has gone thru the treatment system. ~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

"~ jan JJsPond.us" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 02:46:53 GMT, " George"
wrote:
I have no idea what makes you say that you can't get a reading
with a regular nitrate kit, Jan. They've been standardized for many
years.

American Pharmaceuticals, and the reason I say that is because the other
KHA in the club said his Nitrate kit wasn't working (his pond was green).
I
asked if I could have it to test on my aquariums (which always have a
reading nitrate). Kit worked on those just fine.

Ok, so the kit worked fine. Then the problem isn't with the kit. Operator
error? Who knows?

It's a 9,000 gallon pond. She should rarely, if ever, have to do water
changes. Additions, yes. Changes, only if there is something dreadfully
wrong.

Sorry George, you're dreadfully wrong. Go read Norm Meck's article:
http://www.vcnet.com/koi_net/finalnet.html#waterchange regarding that. If
you don't believe him, then we'll agree to disagree, but I've taken the
Koi
Health Advisor training thru AKCA, have you? ~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

No, I haven't taken the Koi Health Advisor training thru AKCA. Don't need
to. I've been raising fish (fresh water and salt water) since I was 11
years old (about 35 years). My current pond is three years old, and I've
done at most, four partial water changes No more than 10% at any one time),
and have not lost a single fish to disease or water problems. I have had a
couple of sick fish (my catfish appears to be most vulnerable, but that is
not uncommon since it is an albino), but the problems have always been due
to either accidentaly introduced paracites on a plant (on one ocassion),
or, in the case of the catfish, apparent bacterial infection due to feeding
it shrimp (since I've stopped feeding it shrimp, it has not gotten sick
again. I now only feed it catfish pellets). My current water parameters
a

pH - 7.5
Ammonia - 0
Nitrites - 0
Nitrates - 0
KH - 90
GH - 120
Temp - 78

I have made no water changes this year. I do add water, about 100-150
gallons/week, almost entirely due to evaporation. In fact, I've never even
done a complete clean out of the pond in the three years since it has been
up and running. The bottom is clean, no grunge build up. I clean my
prefilter about once every 2 weeks (it takes about 5 minutes to do this).
I backflush the main filter about once every three months, and then add
aquazyme once a week for a month, then once a month afterwards. I have 14
goldfish (6 of which were born in the pond, five koi, 2 shubukins, and one
large albino channel cat, all happy and healthy as can be. Three of my
females have spawned twice each this year. My waterfall is made up of
limestone slabs, which help buffer the water.

No offense intended, but I suspect someone at your training class must work
for the local water company if they are recommending such frequent water
changes in large ponds. It can certainly get expensive to make so many
changes in a large pond. The fact of the matter is that the more you mess
with your water, the more unstable it can become, and the greater risk
there will be that the fish get sick. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
You do the tests, inspect the pond and the filters regularly, and well as
the fish and plants. If there are no problems or indication of possible
problems, either with the water, filtration system or the fish and plants,
there is no reason to change the water.

Tell me if you think these fish look healthy to you (note, one female looks
a little ragged, but then, she just spawned about three weeks before these
pictures were taken. And note the water clarity:

http://home.insightbb.com/~jryates/fish/fish.htm

Here is a page that shows the filtrations sytem and the pond itself (when
it was first set up):

http://home.insightbb.com/~jryates/filter.htm

My Pond is 4'x12'x45" (1346.5 gallons max.). Admittedly, this is a much
smaller pond than the person posting these questions has (I think hers is
9,000 gallons). The more water, the more stable the pond, so the fewer
changes need to be made. This is a rule of thumb that I've used for many
years with success regardless of whether I am dealing with fresh or salt
water systems.

Cheers,

George

Ok, so the kit worked fine. Then the problem isn't with the kit. Operator
error? Who knows?

I highly doubt that, considering the source. Knowing him he repeated the
test several times to make sure and he had reef tanks prior to going into
ponding.

No, I haven't taken the Koi Health Advisor training thru AKCA. Don't need
to. I've been raising fish (fresh water and salt water) since I was 11
years old (about 35 years).

And I've had fish since I was 18, so 33 years total, doesn't mean squat. I
learned so much from the KHA program, more than I ever did in those first
28 years. In fact, the other KHA mentioned above, has only been doing ponds
for 5 years. He taken more time to research and get even more involved and
take more extensive classes. I go to when I've got a question. Personal
experience doesn't always cover all aspects.

My current pond is three years old,

Not very old really. Things tend to bite us in the backside around years 5
to 8.

pH - 7.5
Ammonia - 0
Nitrites - 0
Nitrates - 0
KH - 90
GH - 120
Temp - 78

Doesn't mean much, because the things that water changes remove we don't
test for, such as heavy metals and fish pheromone, to name a couple. Clear
water doesn't always mean clean unfortunately.

No offense intended, but I suspect someone at your training class must work
for the local water company if they are recommending such frequent water
changes in large ponds.

The class was taught by people not even in my area, and water is the
cheapest thing a person puts in their pond. The teachers were fish vets and
teacher/hobbyists had backgrounds in everything from biochemistry to
construction. Thus they taught the course that was their background
specialty. The course was via internet and took 9 months, and we were
tested tough, then we attended a full weekend wet lab class.

You want to find out the hard way, continue on, but it isn't the
recommended way by those who have far, far, more experience and expertise
than you or I combined. ~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

"~ jan JJsPond.us" wrote in message
...
Ok, so the kit worked fine. Then the problem isn't with the kit.
Operator
error? Who knows?

I highly doubt that, considering the source. Knowing him he repeated the
test several times to make sure and he had reef tanks prior to going into
ponding.

No, I haven't taken the Koi Health Advisor training thru AKCA. Don't
need
to. I've been raising fish (fresh water and salt water) since I was 11
years old (about 35 years).

And I've had fish since I was 18, so 33 years total, doesn't mean squat.
I
learned so much from the KHA program, more than I ever did in those first
28 years. In fact, the other KHA mentioned above, has only been doing
ponds
for 5 years. He taken more time to research and get even more involved
and
take more extensive classes. I go to when I've got a question. Personal
experience doesn't always cover all aspects.

My current pond is three years old,

Not very old really. Things tend to bite us in the backside around years
5
to 8.

My last pond was up and running for 10 years.

pH - 7.5
Ammonia - 0
Nitrites - 0
Nitrates - 0
KH - 90
GH - 120
Temp - 78

Doesn't mean much, because the things that water changes remove we don't
test for, such as heavy metals and fish pheromone, to name a couple.
Clear
water doesn't always mean clean unfortunately.

Heavy metals aren't a problem if the water you are adding has less than
allowable levels, and are nothing that activated carbon and regular
maintenance can't take care of. As for fish pheromone, why is that a
problem? It certainly isn't a problem for fish in the wild. Of course
clear water doesn't always mean clean. We are, after all talking about a
pond, not an aquarium. If you want 'clean' water, a pond is not for you.

No offense intended, but I suspect someone at your training class must
work
for the local water company if they are recommending such frequent water
changes in large ponds.

The class was taught by people not even in my area, and water is the
cheapest thing a person puts in their pond. The teachers were fish vets
and
teacher/hobbyists had backgrounds in everything from biochemistry to
construction. Thus they taught the course that was their background
specialty. The course was via internet and took 9 months, and we were
tested tough, then we attended a full weekend wet lab class.

You want to find out the hard way, continue on, but it isn't the
recommended way by those who have far, far, more experience and expertise
than you or I combined. ~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

I've already found out the hard way. You don't have to turn your pond into
an expensive lab experiment to have successful results. Common sense will
do in most cases. It's not like Koi and goldfish are the hardest animals
in the world to raise. They most certainly are not. Try maintaining a
reef tank and keeping those critters alive for any length of time.

Well George, my training or the websites of the experts I suggested aren't
going to change your mind, obviously, so you tell people what you want and
I'll do same. You don't attack my opinion/position, I won't attack yours.
How's that? ~ jan



On Sun, 31 Jul 2005 02:34:21 GMT, " George" wrote:


"~ jan JJsPond.us" wrote in message
.. .
Ok, so the kit worked fine. Then the problem isn't with the kit.
Operator
error? Who knows?

I highly doubt that, considering the source. Knowing him he repeated the
test several times to make sure and he had reef tanks prior to going into
ponding.

No, I haven't taken the Koi Health Advisor training thru AKCA. Don't
need
to. I've been raising fish (fresh water and salt water) since I was 11
years old (about 35 years).

And I've had fish since I was 18, so 33 years total, doesn't mean squat.
I
learned so much from the KHA program, more than I ever did in those first
28 years. In fact, the other KHA mentioned above, has only been doing
ponds
for 5 years. He taken more time to research and get even more involved
and
take more extensive classes. I go to when I've got a question. Personal
experience doesn't always cover all aspects.

My current pond is three years old,

Not very old really. Things tend to bite us in the backside around years
5
to 8.

My last pond was up and running for 10 years.

pH - 7.5
Ammonia - 0
Nitrites - 0
Nitrates - 0
KH - 90
GH - 120
Temp - 78

Doesn't mean much, because the things that water changes remove we don't
test for, such as heavy metals and fish pheromone, to name a couple.
Clear
water doesn't always mean clean unfortunately.

Heavy metals aren't a problem if the water you are adding has less than
allowable levels, and are nothing that activated carbon and regular
maintenance can't take care of. As for fish pheromone, why is that a
problem? It certainly isn't a problem for fish in the wild. Of course
clear water doesn't always mean clean. We are, after all talking about a
pond, not an aquarium. If you want 'clean' water, a pond is not for you.

No offense intended, but I suspect someone at your training class must
work
for the local water company if they are recommending such frequent water
changes in large ponds.

The class was taught by people not even in my area, and water is the
cheapest thing a person puts in their pond. The teachers were fish vets
and
teacher/hobbyists had backgrounds in everything from biochemistry to
construction. Thus they taught the course that was their background
specialty. The course was via internet and took 9 months, and we were
tested tough, then we attended a full weekend wet lab class.

You want to find out the hard way, continue on, but it isn't the
recommended way by those who have far, far, more experience and expertise
than you or I combined. ~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

I've already found out the hard way. You don't have to turn your pond into
an expensive lab experiment to have successful results. Common sense will
do in most cases. It's not like Koi and goldfish are the hardest animals
in the world to raise. They most certainly are not. Try maintaining a
reef tank and keeping those critters alive for any length of time.


~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

"~ jan JJsPond.us" wrote in message
news
Well George, my training or the websites of the experts I suggested
aren't
going to change your mind, obviously, so you tell people what you want
and
I'll do same. You don't attack my opinion/position, I won't attack yours.
How's that? ~ jan


Why you think I am attacking you is a mystery, indeed. I don't think I
have, and that was never my intent.

I'll do same. You don't attack my opinion/position, I won't attack yours.
How's that? ~ jan

Why you think I am attacking you is a mystery, indeed. I don't think I
have, and that was never my intent. George

True, it is apparent (if one goes back and reads this thread) we're just
having a discussion here... where we're not in agreement.

You have tossed in a few minor put downs, not directed at me per se, but
the other KHA in my club (must not have done the Nitrate test right) or the
KHA teachers (must work for the water company). LOL!

Even the most experience in this hobby who are involved with the KHA
program, AKCA and/or KOI USA will agree that much has changed in how we do
ponding in just the last 5-10 years. I was sort of hoping you'd read some
of the info. I don't expect you to just fall over and believe me.

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it" doesn't exclude maintenance. ~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

"~ jan JJsPond.us" wrote in message
...
I'll do same. You don't attack my opinion/position, I won't attack
yours.
How's that? ~ jan

Why you think I am attacking you is a mystery, indeed. I don't think I
have, and that was never my intent. George

True, it is apparent (if one goes back and reads this thread) we're just
having a discussion here... where we're not in agreement.

You have tossed in a few minor put downs, not directed at me per se, but
the other KHA in my club (must not have done the Nitrate test right) or
the
KHA teachers (must work for the water company). LOL!

Even the most experience in this hobby who are involved with the KHA
program, AKCA and/or KOI USA will agree that much has changed in how we
do
ponding in just the last 5-10 years. I was sort of hoping you'd read some
of the info. I don't expect you to just fall over and believe me.

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it" doesn't exclude maintenance. ~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

Of course it doesn't exclude maintenance. If you look back at my posts, I
think you will find that I did, in fact, stress maintenance. It has simply
been my experience that in most situations, there is no need to do frequent
water changes in a pond.

It has simply been my experience that in most situations, there is no need to do frequent
water changes in a pond.

And that obviously works for you (so far). You have mentioned some
problems, but seem convince from whence they came.

Since we know very little about people coming in here, it is best, imo, to
hold firm to the advice given by the experts at AKCA/KOI USA and those that
taught the KHA course (PhD Fish Vets). That mantra being: "Frequent Partial
Water Changes" of 10%/week.

There are exception to every rule. Such as, if you have ammonia showing,
before you do a water change, detox the ammonia, then you can
proceed. ~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

"~ jan JJsPond.us" wrote in message
...
It has simply been my experience that in most situations, there is no
need to do frequent
water changes in a pond.

And that obviously works for you (so far). You have mentioned some
problems, but seem convince from whence they came.

Since we know very little about people coming in here, it is best, imo,
to
hold firm to the advice given by the experts at AKCA/KOI USA and those
that
taught the KHA course (PhD Fish Vets). That mantra being: "Frequent
Partial
Water Changes" of 10%/week.

There are exception to every rule. Such as, if you have ammonia showing,
before you do a water change, detox the ammonia, then you can
proceed. ~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

Actually, what that web page you gave me a link to says is this:

"It is considered appropriate to change out from 5 to 10 percent of a
pond's water per week. A small pond (500 gallons or less) should receive
the 10% weekly change out. The 5% change out is appropriate for a large
pond (5000 gallons or more). Any water replaced after a weekly backflush of
a filter system or other maintenance actions should be included as being
part of the weekly change out amount." That page also says "Partial water
change outs can reduce the amount of anything dissolved in the water but
not totally remove it." That, of course, assumes that there is something
undesirable in the water that needs removing/diluting in the first place.

"Considered appropriate". It doesn't say that it is necessary or even
desirable in all cases. And do note also that the 10% rule is recommended
for smaller ponds (500 gallons), not larger ponds. For larger ponds, a 5%
change is recommended. The problems I've had in the past had nothing to do
with the water. The problem I had with the catfish was mitigated by not
feeding it raw food (store-bought shrimp often contains unacceptable levels
of bacteria), and only feeding it dry pellets. Once I switched to dry
catfish pellets (which it eats voraciously), the problem went away. The
paracite problem occurred because I had introduced a plant without first
cleaning it and quarantining/treating it (call it carelessness, if you
want). Oh, and I too have degrees, so I'm not without an academic
background. But enough of the degree waving, ok? It really is a little
silly, if you don't mind me saying so.

I'll repeat:
Since we know very little about people coming in here, it is best, imo,
to hold firm to the advice given by the experts at AKCA/KOI USA and those
that taught the KHA course (actual Fish Vets). That mantra being: "Frequent
Partial Water Changes" of 10%/week. (Very few in here have ponds over 5,000
gallons, so I'll add YMMV, read the info.)

And since the OP, Priss, was having troubles, she should read the wise
words on the AKCA.org site. And the info site written by Norm Meck, who was
one of the instructors, his spaciality, Water Chemistry. No one has to
take my interpretation of it as fact. ~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~