Are apple and peach genetically related (and how)?

As I am not a biologist, I tried to simply google this. People say
apple, peach and quince are closely related, they show this result by
similarity tables, but no web site I found made any statements on the
genetical affinity of apple and peach.

Thanks in advance,

Claudio

Are apple and peach genetically related (and how)?

As I am not a biologist, I tried to simply google this. People say apple, peach
and quince are closely related,

Apples, peaches, & quince are all members of the rose family, Rosaceae. You
don't really need a table for this. In the spring, go out & look at apple &
peach trees. If there are no peach trees around, look at cherry trees & compare
them to apples. Look at some other members of the rose family, like single
flowered roses, hawthorns, shadbush, flowering quince, whatever grows in your
area. You will soon see the traits they have in common. Next fall, look at rose
hips and compare them with apples.
Apples, quince, and pears are closely related. Some authorities place them all
in the genus Malus. They are known as pome fruits because the fruits all have
the same structure, five small seeds enclosed in a hard fibrous container
inside an edible fruit. Peaches nowadays are placed in the genus Prunus, along
with cherries, almonds, plums, apricots, & all the other stone fruits. They all
have an edible fruit with one hard seed in the middle, except the almond, which
has a thin rudimentary fruit and a hard-coated edible seed. They have many
traits in common with apples: five petals, five stamens, alternate leaves, etc.

Iris,
Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40
"If we see light at the end of the tunnel, It's the light of the oncoming
train."
Robert Lowell (1917-1977)

Are apple and peach genetically related (and how)?

As I am not a biologist, I tried to simply google this. People say apple,
peach and quince are closely related,

Iris Cohen schreef
Apples, peaches, & quince are all members of the rose family, Rosaceae.
You don't really need a table for this. In the spring, go out & look at
apple & peach trees. If there are no peach trees around, look at cherry
trees & compare them to apples. Look at some other members of the rose
family, like single flowered roses, hawthorns, shadbush, flowering quince,
whatever grows in your area. You will soon see the traits they have in
common. Next fall, look at rose hips and compare them with apples.
Apples, quince, and pears are closely related. Some authorities place them
all in the genus Malus. They are known as pome fruits because the fruits all
have the same structure, five small seeds enclosed in a hard fibrous
container inside an edible fruit.
+ + +
Anyway they are in the same subfamily, Maloideae, a coherent unit with
somewhat uncertain generic delimitation
+ + +
Peaches nowadays are placed in the genus Prunus, along
with cherries, almonds, plums, apricots, & all the other stone fruits. They
all have an edible fruit with one hard seed in the middle, except the
almond, which has a thin rudimentary fruit and a hard-coated edible seed.
They have many traits in common with apples: five petals, five stamens,
alternate leaves, etc.
Iris,
+ + +
Technically the hard stuff is part of the fruit, and the actual seed is
inside the hard stuff in all cases. Just nitpicking. ;-)
PvR

"P van Rijckevorsel" wrote in
...
Are apple and peach genetically related (and how)?

[snip]

Iris Cohen schreef
Apples, peaches, & quince are all members of the rose family, Rosaceae.

[snip]

Apples, quince, and pears are closely related. Some authorities place
them
all in the genus Malus. They are known as pome fruits ...

[snip]

Anyway they are in the same subfamily, Maloideae, a coherent unit with
somewhat uncertain generic delimitation
+ + +
Peaches nowadays are placed in the genus Prunus, along
with cherries, almonds, plums, apricots, & all the other stone fruits.
They

cereoid+10 wrote in reply to my post:

| If by genetic affinity, you mean, can they be crossed to produce hybrids?
| The answer is no. They are in separate genera that are not interfertile.

thank you all.

family Rosaceae
subfamily Maloideae: Apples, quince, pears
genus [Malus: Apples, quince, pears]
- this is contested.
really, apples and pears belong to different genera

genus Prunus: Peaches, cherries, almonds, plums, apricots,
& all the other stone fruits

How does this taxonomy relate to the genomes of pear and apple?
I may have used the term "genetic affinity" incorrectly.

I wonder whether the genome of apple and pear tells us anything
about their evolutionary relationship? Is their striking ressemblance
due to fundamental genetic similarities?

do they perhaps share whole chromosomes, or a significant number of genes,
are there certain types of mutation which could explain that one is a
descendant of the other etc.? for example, colza combines the genomes of
two other plants which belong to different genera. (which resulted in the
fact that the chromosomes didn't pair out, and so the original genomes
where preserved in the colza genome.) is there any sort of genetic relation-
ship like this between pear and apple?

hm... hope I don't bother you ( too much :-) ).

Technically the hard stuff is part of the fruit, and the actual seed is
inside the hard stuff

Remember, this is a layman who did not know how to do a Google search to get
that far.

Iris,
Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40
"If we see light at the end of the tunnel, It's the light of the oncoming
train."
Robert Lowell (1917-1977)

In article , Claudio
Jolowicz writes
Are apple and peach genetically related (and how)?

As I am not a biologist, I tried to simply google this. People say
apple, peach and quince are closely related, they show this result by
similarity tables, but no web site I found made any statements on the
genetical affinity of apple and peach.

Thanks in advance,

Claudio

All three plants are classified in the same plant family - the Rose
family, Rosaceae. Whether this counts as closely related depends on what
one means by closely related. However they are not more closely related
to each other than each is to other plants within the family.

The Rosaceae is divided into subfamilies. The peach belongs to one
subfamily, Amygdaloideae. Within this family it belongs to the genus
Prunus - it being Prunus persica. The most closely related fruit to the
peach is the nectarine, which is a variety (i.e. within the same
species) of peach without the surface fuzz. I'd guess the most closely
related species is the apricot, Prunus armeniaca, but as there's several
hundred species of Prunus there's ample opportunity for me to be wrong
on this point.

The apple and quince belong to another subfamily, Maloideae. Apples
(there's many species) are classified in genus Malus. Quince is
classified in genus Cydonia, which is monospecific, quince being Cydonia
oblonga. There are many other genera in Maloideae, and it seems unlikely
that Cydonia is the most closely related genus to Malus. However, the
phylogeny of Maloideae appears to be confused; many intergeneric hybrids
occur, and genus boundaries are disputed. (I see that the taxonomists
have been chopping Sorbus into pieces.) The pears, genus Pyrus, are
often thought of as the more closely related genus to Malus. I'd guess
at Chamaemeles as the genus most closely related to Cydonia.

There are papers on the phylogeny of Maloideae out there, but the two
promising PDF files I found were restricted access, so I don't know
what's been said, beyond a few abstracts. There's also a pile of
sequences in GenBank/EMBL should anyone wish to draw their own tree.

Most of the subfamily Maloideae shares the same genomic structure, with
17 chromosomes in the haploid set. (A few basal genera differ). They are
descended from an ancient polyploid. (It's disputed whether it was an
amphiploid, or an aneuploid derivative of an autopolyploid.) The wide
range of intergeneric hybrids suggests little modification of the
structure of the chromosomes by duplications, deletions and inversions.
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley

Claudio Jolowicz writes
Are apple and peach genetically related (and how)?

As I am not a biologist, I tried to simply google this. People say
apple, peach and quince are closely related, they show this result by
similarity tables, but no web site I found made any statements on the
genetical affinity of apple and peach.

Thanks in advance,

Claudio
=========
Stewart Robert Hinsley schreef
All three plants are classified in the same plant family - the Rose
family, Rosaceae. Whether this counts as closely related depends on what
one means by closely related. However they are not more closely related
to each other than each is to other plants within the family.

The Rosaceae is divided into subfamilies. The peach belongs to one
subfamily, Amygdaloideae. Within this family it belongs to the genus
Prunus - it being Prunus persica. The most closely related fruit to the
peach is the nectarine, which is a variety (i.e. within the same
species) of peach without the surface fuzz. I'd guess the most closely
related species is the apricot, Prunus armeniaca, but as there's several
hundred species of Prunus there's ample opportunity for me to be wrong
on this point.

The apple and quince belong to another subfamily, Maloideae. Apples
(there's many species) are classified in genus Malus. Quince is
classified in genus Cydonia, which is monospecific, quince being Cydonia
oblonga. There are many other genera in Maloideae, and it seems unlikely
that Cydonia is the most closely related genus to Malus. However, the
phylogeny of Maloideae appears to be confused; many intergeneric hybrids
occur, and genus boundaries are disputed. (I see that the taxonomists
have been chopping Sorbus into pieces.) The pears, genus Pyrus, are
often thought of as the more closely related genus to Malus. I'd guess
at Chamaemeles as the genus most closely related to Cydonia.

There are papers on the phylogeny of Maloideae out there, but the two
promising PDF files I found were restricted access, so I don't know
what's been said, beyond a few abstracts. There's also a pile of
sequences in GenBank/EMBL should anyone wish to draw their own tree.

Most of the subfamily Maloideae shares the same genomic structure, with
17 chromosomes in the haploid set. (A few basal genera differ). They are
descended from an ancient polyploid. (It's disputed whether it was an
amphiploid, or an aneuploid derivative of an autopolyploid.) The wide
range of intergeneric hybrids suggests little modification of the
structure of the chromosomes by duplications, deletions and inversions.
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley

+ + +
You are braver than I am.
I first took down Judd &al. and decided it was not safe to speak in general
terms about subfamilies in the Rosaceae, except Maloideae, which apparently
is a close natural unit.
PvR

PS: Really nitpicking, it is best not to mix Greek and Latin in one term, so
preferably it is either "monotypic" or "unispecific" ...

Technically the hard stuff is part of the fruit, and the actual seed is
inside the hard stuff

Iris Cohen schreef
Remember, this is a layman who did not know how to do a Google search to
get that far.

Iris,

+ + +
I did keep that in mind. Do note that this is someone who happily throws
about terms such as "chromosome" and "gene". A little knowledge is a
dangerous thing. I still feel it is wisest to aim at accuracy (without going
into boring detail)even when using a word such as "seed". Who knows what
your innocuous remark might have led too ...
PvR

"Stewart Robert Hinsley" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...
In article , Claudio
Jolowicz writes
Are apple and peach genetically related (and how)?

As I am not a biologist, I tried to simply google this. People say
apple, peach and quince are closely related, they show this result by
similarity tables, but no web site I found made any statements on the
genetical affinity of apple and peach.

Thanks in advance,

Claudio

All three plants are classified in the same plant family - the Rose
family, Rosaceae. Whether this counts as closely related depends on what
one means by closely related. However they are not more closely related
to each other than each is to other plants within the family.

The Rosaceae is divided into subfamilies.
The peach ...

damn I have made a stupid typo. I meant pear and I typed peach. Sorry !!!
However, my question on pears has been answered by the other paragraphs of
your post. If I understood correctly, then:

Pear and apple are both haploids with 17 chromosomes, probably descending
from an ancient polyploid. The structure of their chromosomes seems to be
very similar, as you said that little modification has occurred in it,
caused by duplications, deletions or inversions, during their evolution
from that polyploid, and (I guess) little enough to cross them.

Thanks a lot, that's exactly the sort of answer I was looking for.



The apple and quince belong to another subfamily, Maloideae. Apples
(there's many species) are classified in genus Malus. Quince is
classified in genus Cydonia, which is monospecific, quince being Cydonia
oblonga. There are many other genera in Maloideae, and it seems unlikely
that Cydonia is the most closely related genus to Malus. However, the
phylogeny of Maloideae appears to be confused; many intergeneric hybrids
occur, and genus boundaries are disputed. (I see that the taxonomists
have been chopping Sorbus into pieces.) The pears, genus Pyrus, are
often thought of as the more closely related genus to Malus. I'd guess
at Chamaemeles as the genus most closely related to Cydonia.

There are papers on the phylogeny of Maloideae out there, but the two
promising PDF files I found were restricted access, so I don't know
what's been said, beyond a few abstracts. There's also a pile of
sequences in GenBank/EMBL should anyone wish to draw their own tree.

Most of the subfamily Maloideae shares the same genomic structure, with
17 chromosomes in the haploid set. (A few basal genera differ). They are
descended from an ancient polyploid. (It's disputed whether it was an
amphiploid, or an aneuploid derivative of an autopolyploid.) The wide
range of intergeneric hybrids suggests little modification of the
structure of the chromosomes by duplications, deletions and inversions.
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley

"P van Rijckevorsel" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...
Technically the hard stuff is part of the fruit, and the actual seed
is
inside the hard stuff

Iris Cohen schreef
Remember, this is a layman who did not know how to do a Google search to
get that far.

Iris,

+ + +
I did keep that in mind. Do note that this is someone who happily throws
about terms such as "chromosome" and "gene". A little knowledge is a
dangerous thing. I still feel it is wisest to aim at accuracy (without
going
into boring detail)even when using a word such as "seed". Who knows what
your innocuous remark might have led too ...
PvR


I am not a person who throws about terms without knowing what they mean.
Although I am not a biologist, I have tried to understand some concepts
of genetics. It enabled me to understand the last paragraph in Steward
Robert Hinsley's post. Still I wouldn't throw about the terms he used,
without
rereading their exact definitions.

In article , Claudio Jolowicz
writes

Pear and apple are both haploids with 17 chromosomes, probably descending
from an ancient polyploid. The structure of their chromosomes seems to be
very similar, as you said that little modification has occurred in it,
caused by duplications, deletions or inversions, during their evolution
from that polyploid, and (I guess) little enough to cross them.


Conservation of the structure of the chromosomes is an inference (hence
the use of the word 'suggests' in my prior post); it may not be a
correct inference. The inference is perhaps testable by examination of
chromatin banding patterns. Also by sequencing of genomes, but this
would be a very expensive test to perform, and can't be expected for
some decades.
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley

In article , P van
Rijckevorsel writes
You are braver than I am.
I first took down Judd &al. and decided it was not safe to speak in general
terms about subfamilies in the Rosaceae, except Maloideae, which apparently
is a close natural unit.
PvR

From the 1st edition it seems to me that Rosoideae, Amygdaloideae and
Maloideae are all sensible groups; it's Spiraeoideae which is the
problem area. (Then again, not all the cladograms in Judd et al are
correct.) Perhaps Spiraeoideae will get chopped into pieces in the next
revision, with maybe a little extension to the others.

PS: Really nitpicking, it is best not to mix Greek and Latin in one term, so
preferably it is either "monotypic" or "unispecific" ...

Google: 67 hits for unispecific; 8420 for monospecific. (And 9880 for
monotypic.)
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley

In article , P van
Rijckevorsel writes
I first took down Judd &al. and decided it was not safe to speak in general
terms about subfamilies in the Rosaceae, except Maloideae, which apparently
is a close natural unit.

I'd seen the following before, but I'd missed it in Google earlier
today: URL:http://www.botany.utoronto.ca/facult...n/rosaceaeevol
ution/phylogeny.html (a collection of rosaceous cladograms).
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley

In article ,
P van Rijckevorsel wrote:

Iris Cohen schreef
Apples, quince, and pears are closely related. Some authorities place them
all in the genus Malus. They are known as pome fruits because the fruits all
have the same structure, five small seeds enclosed in a hard fibrous
container inside an edible fruit.
+ + +
[regarding 'pit' fruits]
Technically the hard stuff is part of the fruit, and the actual seed is
inside the hard stuff in all cases. Just nitpicking. ;-)

Hey! I wanna nitpick too!

begin nitpick
Each of those five compartments in a cultivated apple usually has two
seeds, sometimes three, often one.
end nitpick

begin folk thing
Cut an apple horizontally to charm little kids by showing them the "star"
in the apple.
end folk thing

begin pompous handwaving
I would not be surprised if apples and pears are complicated hybrids, like
roses. People who only see the cultivated ones and think they are very
different aren't aware of the many Malus/Pyrus species tht look as much
like pears as apples. The pear domesticated in the orient is not the
same species as teh one domesticated in Europe. There are a few other
'pyrus' spp that have been crossed into one or the other of the domesticated
species to introduce cold hardiness, too. Ditto, various 'crabapples'
have been crossed into cultivated apples to make more edible crabapples,
and 'apple-crabs' for cold areas like the Canadian prairies.
end pompous handwaving

begin slightly offtopic
Hawthorns (Craetagus (sp?)) are an incredibly tar pit for taxonomists. They
clone themselves like crazy and have great variation in leaf shape and fruit
character. A friend has been trying to sort all this out for her Ph.D.
thesis. She says that hawthorn taxonomists have been know to tear their
hair out screaming "either every clone is a species or none of them are!".
end slightly offtopic

In article ,
Claudio Jolowicz wrote:

"Stewart Robert Hinsley" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...

Pear and apple are both haploids with 17 chromosomes, probably descending
from an ancient polyploid. The structure of their chromosomes seems to be
very similar, as you said that little modification has occurred in it,
caused by duplications, deletions or inversions, during their evolution
from that polyploid, and (I guess) little enough to cross them.

What Stewart said is that apple and pear are both *diploid*, with *haploid
number* of 17 (i.e. diploid number 34).

As another unnatural effect of domestication, some apple cultivars are
triploid, and produce nonfunctional pollen. I've occasionally wondered
whether there are triploids with nonfunctional ova, but good pollen, but
we never hear about them because nobody wants an apple tree that doesn't
produce apples, no matter how good the pollen is. Come to think of it,
people do seem to want fruitless fruit trees as ornamentals. Maybe there'd
be big bucks in a fruitless ornamental crabapple. No squashed rotten
crabs tracked into the house, or people slipping on them and suing you.

The apple and quince belong to another subfamily, Maloideae. Apples
(there's many species) are classified in genus Malus. Quince is
classified in genus Cydonia, which is monospecific, quince being Cydonia
oblonga. There are many other genera in Maloideae, and it seems unlikely
that Cydonia is the most closely related genus to Malus. However, the
phylogeny of Maloideae appears to be confused; many intergeneric hybrids
occur, and genus boundaries are disputed. (I see that the taxonomists
have been chopping Sorbus into pieces.) The pears, genus Pyrus, are
often thought of as the more closely related genus to Malus. I'd guess
at Chamaemeles as the genus most closely related to Cydonia.

Pears are grafted onto quince to dwarf them, but not only are grafts of
European-descended pears onto the Siberian Pyrus ussuriensis not long
lived, but some cultivars of European pears are incompatible grafted
to each other. Is graft compatibility of any value in estimating
relatedness?