"Fred B. McGalliard" wrote:
(snipped)

Boy it has been a long time since I learned this. I hope I recall it
correctly. Clover, and I think the other similar legumes, have a symbiotic
bacteria, in clover it is found in little nodules on the roots, that fix
nitrogen. So if you can keep the roots from competing too much with your
other crop, you can grow the two crops together and the nitrogen is
available as long as the bacteria lives.


Someone suggested that the nitrogen in clover, or alfalfa or legumes or
locust trees is not released to other plants until the legume dies. I do not
believe that. But nonetheless we need a thorough science investigation as to
the correct answer on nitrogen release to nearby plants from legumes.

If it is found out that legumes will release nitrogen to nearby plants we are
living in the best of all possible worlds because then we can combine
two cash crops where one crop fertilizes the other and never need to buy
fertilizer.

We can also do it for trees and especially use locust trees in between orchard
trees.

I have had the joyful experience of witnessing the best growing pear tree
smack up against a locust tree. I assume the pear was drawing nitrogen from
the locust. I have since cut down the locust and am monitoring the pear to see
if it is even more vigorous in growth. This is where other people's
observations
comes in handy. If there are enough people out there reading this and have
had a locust tree nearby an apple or pear or cherry etc and found that fruit
tree the best of all fruit trees then we can assemble some sort of plausible
credence in the belief that a locust aids nearby trees in nitrogen fertilizer.

One of the bad features of botany is the time span to reach conclusions since
many trees take decades to find out answers.

I have another observation under testing to see if a checkerboard fruit orchard

mixed with pine and spruce conditions the soil pH so that the apples and cherry

grow the best than if they were purely fruit trees. I have witnessed my best
apple
tree is one that is next to a huge bluespruce and feel that the apple is
thriving because of the acid conditioning given by the bluespruce. Here again,
if alot of
readers have found a similar situation of where their soil is alkaline and
their
best apples are amoung pine and spruce would lend credence to the statement
that a evergreen mixed fruit orchard is better than a pure fruit orchard.

We need science research answers about legumes planted between rows of crop
as to whether we can get a double cash crop and never have to fertilize or use
any herbicide in such a field.

I have a yellow blooming legume in my vegetable field where I am experimenting.
It is not alfalfa but resembles it very much. It is great because
when I mow it helps this legume to take over more and more of the field.
Fred, you happen to know the name of this yellow blooming legume?

Archimedes Plutonium,
whole entire Universe is just one big atom where dots
of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies

On 6/7/03 3:31 AM, in article , "Archimedes
Plutonium" wrote:

Part cut.

If it is found out that legumes will release nitrogen to nearby plants we are
living in the best of all possible worlds because then we can combine
two cash crops where one crop fertilizes the other and never need to buy
fertilizer.

More cut.

I don't think it would be practical for regular farms. Alfalfa, for
example is normally cut 3 or 4 times a year in my area. There wouldn't be
any practical way to cut it out of a standing corn field.
The closest I saw to two simultaneous crops in the same fields was soybean
and corn. Eight rows of beans, then eight rows of corn. It alternated like
that through the field. The most obvious problem with that is irrigation.
Beans and corn need about the same amount of water. The problem is the
timing. Corn needs water earlier than beans. Most irrigation here (eastern
Nebraska, USA) is by pivot irrigation. That means problems for the
irrigation scheduling.

Dean






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Archimedes Plutonium wrote:



I have a yellow blooming legume in my vegetable field where I am experimenting.
It is not alfalfa but resembles it very much. It is great because
when I mow it helps this legume to take over more and more of the field.

It is Trefoil. Some call it Birdsfoot Trefoil. It is a legume that is perfect for
mowing just as clover is perfect because it thrives under mowing conditions.

Does anyone know whether you can have wild growing trefoil and have
wild growing clover that does not fix nitrogen? The reason I ask is because
someone said an inoculate of rhizium bacteria are needed in seed
applications. I find it difficult to believe that entire patches of wild growing
legume would not be having nitrogen nodules with the proper bacterium.

I suppose I could always dig up a few plants to see if they have nodules
and replant them.

Has anyone researched whether a field of thriving legumes exists and yet
does not have the benefit of nitrogen fixing?

Trefoil and clover are perfect plants for the Mowing Method of farming.

I suppose one can have a mower with a bag attachment and mow his/her
20 acres and sell the clippings. And the row crops never need fertilizing
because the legume strips provide all the nitrogen needed. And never
need herbicide. And never need to plow the field dirt raw and bare.

Just the other day I heard of the concern of nitrogen into the nation's
water where fish live and that the farm runoff is so bad on fish.

Well, if all farming were to convert to the MowerMethod, then there would
never be any application of herbicides. There would never be any application
of fertilizer. There would never be any need to yearly plow and to expose
topsoil to erosion ending up in the Gulf basin. Farms would have at least
2 cash crops of the legume feed and of the crop rows. And the consumption
of petrol in farming would be cut to a minimum. About the only petrol used
in farming would be the 9 or 10 times a season that the field strips are mowed.
A lawnmower to mow 20 acres for 10 times a season uses a fraction of the petrol
that a tractor would take per season.

The USA is not going to switch to the MowerMethod of farming from its
current Petrolbased farming any time soon. But Europe can make the switch
immediately and eliminate the European subsidy on farming. The subsidy on
farming worldwide is because the world is losing its petroleum resource and
as petrol goes higher and higher, farms cannot be using petrol but must return
to Renewable-Agriculture. If the USA government overnight proclaimed no more
farm subsidies then all USA farmers would be returning to Renewable Agriculture
such as the MowerMethod.

Archimedes Plutonium,
whole entire Universe is just one big atom where dots
of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies

Only in petrolbased farming can you have the luxury of turning huge
plots of land into bare dirt and topsoil. Where you can kill every plant
except a crop plant with herbicides. Where some heavy machinery
equipment does all the work but guzzles up petrol.

Farming should never have been like this, but because of the opening
of a new resource such as petrol begun in the 20th century have we
made a profligate waste of that finite resource. Like a bunch of kids in
a ice cream parlor with no bars hold.

Farming should never have been where you eliminate all plants except
for the crop plant and then apply fertilizer. Farming should have been
where the other plants become the fertilizer. Thus combining the
need of herbicide with the need of fertilizing.

Farming should never have been where you expose huge tracts of land
to erosion and where the Gulf basin becomes filled up from the topsoil
of the USA heartland.

Farming should never have been where the price of petrol is beyond the
economics of Petrolbased farming but that the government enters by making
Petrolbased farming subsidized. Subsidized farming is propping up a bubble
that should have been burst decades ago.

Archimedes Plutonium,
whole entire Universe is just one big atom where dots
of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies

From: Archimedes Plutonium

"Fred B. McGalliard" wrote:
(snipped)

Boy it has been a long time since I learned this. I hope I recall it
correctly. Clover, and I think the other similar legumes, have a symbiotic
bacteria, in clover it is found in little nodules on the roots, that fix
nitrogen. So if you can keep the roots from competing too much with your
other crop, you can grow the two crops together and the nitrogen is
available as long as the bacteria lives.


Someone suggested that the nitrogen in clover, or alfalfa or legumes or
locust trees is not released to other plants until the legume dies. I do not
believe that. But nonetheless we need a thorough science investigation as to
the correct answer on nitrogen release to nearby plants from legumes.

Many nitrogen fixing legumes will shed their nodules in periods of particular
stress. At those times, the miniscule amounts of Nitrogen available in the
nodules will become available to other plants. In some instances, such as a
plentiful supply of soil nitrogen, they won't form the nodules at all.

Sean



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10 Jun 2003 19:42:41 GMT Sean Houtman wrote:


Many nitrogen fixing legumes will shed their nodules in periods of particular
stress. At those times, the miniscule amounts of Nitrogen available in the
nodules will become available to other plants. In some instances, such as a
plentiful supply of soil nitrogen, they won't form the nodules at all.

Sean

Yes, thanks for the information. A few days ago I dug up some Trefoil to
see what nodules there are. Found many.

Question: if we see a nodule on a plant then are we guaranteed that the plant
fixes nitrogen with the proper bacterium? I wonder about the practice
of the application of inoculants of bacteria. So, if the legume has nodules is
proof that the field has nitrogen fixing bacteria on those legumes?

I wonder about locust trees. I have dug up the roots of a few but never
found anything resembling nodules. The roots are sort of orange colored
outer surface. Is the reason they are orange colored because of nitrogen
fixing bacteria?

Question: what does one look for in locust tree roots for the nitrogen fixing
component?

Question: do locust trees emit some sort of herbicide akin to what blackwalnut
emits as juglone?

Archimedes Plutonium,
whole entire Universe is just one big atom where dots
of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies

From: Archimedes Plutonium

Sean Houtman wrote:


Many nitrogen fixing legumes will shed their nodules in periods of
particular
stress. At those times, the miniscule amounts of Nitrogen available in the
nodules will become available to other plants. In some instances, such as a
plentiful supply of soil nitrogen, they won't form the nodules at all.

Sean

Yes, thanks for the information. A few days ago I dug up some Trefoil to
see what nodules there are. Found many.

Question: if we see a nodule on a plant then are we guaranteed that the plant
fixes nitrogen with the proper bacterium? I wonder about the practice
of the application of inoculants of bacteria. So, if the legume has nodules
is
proof that the field has nitrogen fixing bacteria on those legumes?

There are other things that can cause nodules, not necessarily nitrogen fixing
bacteria. A nodule is a bit like a gall on a root, and galls can be caused by
any number of things. Many nitrogen fixing bacteria do not even form nodules on
their host plants, Shepherdia, Elaeagnus, and Dactylus do not form nodules when
they have bacteria fix nitrogen for them, but they aren't Legumes either.


I wonder about locust trees. I have dug up the roots of a few but never
found anything resembling nodules. The roots are sort of orange colored
outer surface. Is the reason they are orange colored because of nitrogen
fixing bacteria?

Legumes have a kind of hemoglobin called Leghemoglobin, it is red like other
hemoglobins. The orange color is likely other pigment, possibly a carotene of
some sort. Many woody legumes either do not form nodules or they only have them
during certain times of the year.



Question: what does one look for in locust tree roots for the nitrogen fixing
component?

If you want to look for nodules, make sure you look at the finer, non-woody
roots.



Question: do locust trees emit some sort of herbicide akin to what
blackwalnut
emits as juglone?

Not to my knowledge, in other posts you mentioned sap, that sap is just gum.

Sean



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22 Jun 2003 19:04:56 GMT Sean Houtman wrote:

From: Archimedes Plutonium

Sean Houtman wrote:


Many nitrogen fixing legumes will shed their nodules in periods of
particular
stress. At those times, the miniscule amounts of Nitrogen available in the
nodules will become available to other plants. In some instances, such as a
plentiful supply of soil nitrogen, they won't form the nodules at all.

Sean

Yes, thanks for the information. A few days ago I dug up some Trefoil to
see what nodules there are. Found many.

Question: if we see a nodule on a plant then are we guaranteed that the plant
fixes nitrogen with the proper bacterium? I wonder about the practice
of the application of inoculants of bacteria. So, if the legume has nodules
is
proof that the field has nitrogen fixing bacteria on those legumes?

There are other things that can cause nodules, not necessarily nitrogen fixing
bacteria. A nodule is a bit like a gall on a root, and galls can be caused by
any number of things. Many nitrogen fixing bacteria do not even form nodules on
their host plants, Shepherdia, Elaeagnus, and Dactylus do not form nodules when

I have some Shepherdia; did not know it was nitrogenfixing.

Sean has anyone given a measure for the density of nitrogen produced by
nitrogen fixing plants? I would like to know a comparison of alfalfa, trefoil,
and locust trees.


they have bacteria fix nitrogen for them, but they aren't Legumes either.


I wonder about locust trees. I have dug up the roots of a few but never
found anything resembling nodules. The roots are sort of orange colored
outer surface. Is the reason they are orange colored because of nitrogen
fixing bacteria?

Legumes have a kind of hemoglobin called Leghemoglobin, it is red like other
hemoglobins. The orange color is likely other pigment, possibly a carotene of
some sort. Many woody legumes either do not form nodules or they only have them
during certain times of the year.

How fascinating. Learn something new today. And my first thoughts are that
"how is it connected to my inverse-theory of plants to animals?" Sean, I
proposed a theory that the plant kingdom is dual to the animal kingdom and that
it is impossible to ever have a animal with a carbon skeleton system but that
plants have carbon skeletons (their trunk) easily. And so the question for me
then becomes does this Leghemoglobin support or sink that theory that plants
have something impossible for animals to have and vice versa. I am guessing this
Leghemoglobin has something to do in facilitating the bacteria with oxygen.

I do not know. Whether Leghemoglobin supports or sinks my theory that the
Plant kingdom is a dual to the Animal kingdom with lines of impossibilites running
through each. If a plant can have a form of hemoglobin then can a
plant have a calcium skeleton like most animals? Looks like I am going to
have to return to this topic in the future.




Question: what does one look for in locust tree roots for the nitrogen fixing
component?

If you want to look for nodules, make sure you look at the finer, non-woody
roots.


Question: do locust trees emit some sort of herbicide akin to what
blackwalnut
emits as juglone?

Not to my knowledge, in other posts you mentioned sap, that sap is just gum.


Yes, it did have a sort of glossy, gummy appearance. I believe locust respond to
trimming of their branches with the issuance of more thorns.

At the moment I am trying to get cuttings of a sunburst locust to take. Anyone
know if cuttings will root?

Archimedes Plutonium,
whole entire Universe is just one big atom where dots
of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies

From: Archimedes Plutonium

Sean has anyone given a measure for the density of nitrogen produced by
nitrogen fixing plants? I would like to know a comparison of alfalfa,
trefoil,
and locust trees.


I am certain that nitrogen fixation numbers by mumbles per acre/hectare are
availabe on the internet, Google is your friend.How fascinating. Learn
something new today. And my first thoughts are that
"how is it connected to my inverse-theory of plants to animals?" Sean, I
proposed a theory that the plant kingdom is dual to the animal kingdom and
that
it is impossible to ever have a animal with a carbon skeleton system but that
plants have carbon skeletons (their trunk) easily. And so the question for me
then becomes does this Leghemoglobin support or sink that theory that plants
have something impossible for animals to have and vice versa. I am guessing
this
Leghemoglobin has something to do in facilitating the bacteria with oxygen.

I do not know. Whether Leghemoglobin supports or sinks my theory that the
Plant kingdom is a dual to the Animal kingdom with lines of impossibilites
running
through each. If a plant can have a form of hemoglobin then can a
plant have a calcium skeleton like most animals? Looks like I am going to
have to return to this topic in the future.

Many plants have silica in their cell walls, and very few animals have calcium
based skeletons, most animals have sclerotin exoskeletons.

Sean



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