Hi. I'm trying to grow various ornamental legumes (Caesalpinia,
Calliandra, Dalea) that aren't native to where I live (northern New
Mexico), though some might be found within 50 or 100 miles. Am I right
in thinking the following things?

1. The nitrogen-fixing bacteria that are symbiotic with these plants
won't occur in my soil.

2. They won't be included in commercial inoculants either.

3. My plants will not fix nitrogen.

4. They'll need at least as much nitrogen in their fertilizer as
non-leguminous plants (and my soil, like most in New Mexico, is very
low in nitrogen).

Thanks.

--
Jerry Friedman

Top hit in Google: http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/AG152
PvR
***

schreef
Hi. I'm trying to grow various ornamental legumes (Caesalpinia,
Calliandra, Dalea) that aren't native to where I live (northern New
Mexico), though some might be found within 50 or 100 miles. Am I right
in thinking the following things?

1. The nitrogen-fixing bacteria that are symbiotic with these plants
won't occur in my soil.

2. They won't be included in commercial inoculants either.

3. My plants will not fix nitrogen.

4. They'll need at least as much nitrogen in their fertilizer as
non-leguminous plants (and my soil, like most in New Mexico, is very
low in nitrogen).

Thanks.

--
Jerry Friedman

simy1 wrote:
I disagree. My experience is that compost and/or manure have those
bacteria, and that they will persist in the soil after one crop. You
will not need N-fertilization in that case. Of course, my experience is
limited to peas and various beans.

I'm wondering whether the compost and manure that "inoculate" your
beans and peas have the right bacteria because they come from areas
where beans and peas are grown, and whether I could get any that would
have the right bacteria for my desert plants.

Also, if you have clover in your lawn, or vetch by the roadside, they
may be around.

Lawn? Is that something people have in other parts of the world?

I do have sweet clover and alfalfa growing wild in my garden, and I
encourage them because I need all the nitrogen and all the plants with
flowers I can get, but according to
http://www.fao.org/Wairdocs/ILRI/x5546E/x5546e05.htm there's a
particular species of bacteria (Rhizobium meliloti) that's symbiotic
with those plants. I suspect that it won't be symbiotic with the other
plants I mentioned (Caesalpinia, Calliandra, Dalea). Can anyone tell
me for sure?

--
Jerry Friedman

P van Rijckevorsel wrote:
Top hit in Google: http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/AG152

I admit I didn't do much searching before I asked here. Unfortunately,
neither that page nor any others I've found answers my questions.

--
Jerry Friedman

schreef
Hi. I'm trying to grow various ornamental legumes (Caesalpinia,
Calliandra, Dalea) that aren't native to where I live (northern New
Mexico), though some might be found within 50 or 100 miles. Am I right
in thinking the following things?

1. The nitrogen-fixing bacteria that are symbiotic with these plants
won't occur in my soil.

2. They won't be included in commercial inoculants either.

3. My plants will not fix nitrogen.

4. They'll need at least as much nitrogen in their fertilizer as
non-leguminous plants (and my soil, like most in New Mexico, is very
low in nitrogen).

Thanks.

--
Jerry Friedman

In article .com, wrote:
[snip]
I do have sweet clover and alfalfa growing wild in my garden, and I
encourage them because I need all the nitrogen and all the plants with
flowers I can get, but according to
http://www.fao.org/Wairdocs/ILRI/x5546E/x5546e05.htm there's a
particular species of bacteria (Rhizobium meliloti) that's symbiotic
with those plants. I suspect that it won't be symbiotic with the other
plants I mentioned (Caesalpinia, Calliandra, Dalea). Can anyone tell
me for sure?

No. :-)

You don't say what species you will be using. It's quite
possible that some species in a genus will be exacting in
their requirements while others may be promiscuous.

With _Calliandra calothyrsus_, here's a quote from
http://www.fao.org/ag/agp/agpc/doc/Publicat/Gutt-shel/
x5556e09.htm
[ TinyURL: http://tinyurl.com/zj4wy ]
which also has lots of other good stuff about this species:
quoting
It is commonly stated that inoculation with Rhizobium is not
necessary (Zhou and Han 1984) but use of an appropriate strain
is advised when introducing the plant to new areas.
/quoting

I think you will find similar comments about most plants that use
root nodule bacteria for fixing N. A quick google for "Calliandra
rhizobium" turned up lots of info -- mostly for _C. calothyrsus_
of course, because of its use on the fringes of agriculture. You
might try a similar tactic for the other plants of interest to you.

Also, try googling with the phrase "root nodule bacteria" in lieu
of "rhizobium" as that will probably turn up other stuff of
interest to you -- such as the document describing this project

"Evaluation of the biodiversity of root nodule bacteria isolated
from Calliandra calothyrsus trees growing in Central America,
Cameroon, Kenya and New Caledonia."

which you'll find at
http://www.biocenter.helsinki.fi/gro...rom/diversity/
diversityI.htm [TinyURL: http://tinyurl.com/gq3l8 ]

In particular, read the paragraph starting "C. calothyrsus is a
small tree legume ..."

Of course, discovering that your plants have specific RNB needs
is just the beginning -- you then have to find a source of the
appropriate bugs!

As a final complication, consider that many trees and other
perennial plants may have specific mycorrhizal associations.
(Google that one too. Mycorrhiza are often needed for
efficient uptake of nutrients such as phosphorus.

For an authoritative introduction to mycohizza, go to:

http://www.ffp.csiro.au/research/mycorrhiza/

(But it's very Oz-centric WRT individual species. :-)

Cheers, Phred.

--
LID

[rec.gardens restored]

Phred wrote:
In article .com, wrote:
[snip]
I do have sweet clover and alfalfa growing wild in my garden, and I
encourage them because I need all the nitrogen and all the plants with
flowers I can get, but according to
http://www.fao.org/Wairdocs/ILRI/x5546E/x5546e05.htm there's a
particular species of bacteria (Rhizobium meliloti) that's symbiotic
with those plants. I suspect that it won't be symbiotic with the other
plants I mentioned (Caesalpinia, Calliandra, Dalea). Can anyone tell
me for sure?

No. :-)

I'm beginning to figure that out.

You don't say what species you will be using. It's quite
possible that some species in a genus will be exacting in
their requirements while others may be promiscuous.

With _Calliandra calothyrsus_, here's a quote from
http://www.fao.org/ag/agp/agpc/doc/Publicat/Gutt-shel/
x5556e09.htm
[ TinyURL: http://tinyurl.com/zj4wy ]
which also has lots of other good stuff about this species:
quoting
It is commonly stated that inoculation with Rhizobium is not
necessary (Zhou and Han 1984) but use of an appropriate strain
is advised when introducing the plant to new areas.
/quoting
....

As it happens, it's /Calliandra eriophylla/.

Thanks to all who replied. Here's an example of what I get when I look
for a particular species, /Caesalpinia gilliesii/.

"Nitrogen fixation None"
http://plants.nrcs.usda.gov/cgi_bin/plant_attribute.cgi?symbol=CAGI

"No fertilizing is required, these plants fix nitrogen in the soil."
http://www.monrovia.com/PlantInf.nsf/3e858bc84af1756c88256f0a00787e69/f018b4fc37a9469488256f250065bf53!OpenDocument&Clic k=882568470064D136.77a6cc4887b5c2ab88256f0e007d62a 5/$Body/0.2512

But maybe I'll find a consensus on some other species. Anyway, I think
the answer to my questions is, "If it looks like it's short of
nitrogen, give it some."

--
Jerry Friedman

In article .com, wrote:
[rec.gardens restored]
[ Okay. I guess it's no more dangerous than rec.food.cooking. ]

Phred wrote:
In article .com,
wrote:
[snip]
I do have sweet clover and alfalfa growing wild in my garden, and I
encourage them because I need all the nitrogen and all the plants with
flowers I can get, but according to
http://www.fao.org/Wairdocs/ILRI/x5546E/x5546e05.htm there's a
particular species of bacteria (Rhizobium meliloti) that's symbiotic
with those plants. I suspect that it won't be symbiotic with the other
plants I mentioned (Caesalpinia, Calliandra, Dalea). Can anyone tell
me for sure?

No. :-)

I'm beginning to figure that out.

You don't say what species you will be using. It's quite
possible that some species in a genus will be exacting in
their requirements while others may be promiscuous.

With _Calliandra calothyrsus_, here's a quote from
http://www.fao.org/ag/agp/agpc/doc/Publicat/Gutt-shel/x5556e09.htm
[ TinyURL: http://tinyurl.com/zj4wy ]
which also has lots of other good stuff about this species:
quoting
It is commonly stated that inoculation with Rhizobium is not
necessary (Zhou and Han 1984) but use of an appropriate strain
is advised when introducing the plant to new areas.
/quoting
....

As it happens, it's /Calliandra eriophylla/.

Bit frustrating looking up that one isn't it.
Did you manage to find:
http://www.rbgkew.org.uk/herbarium/legumes/beanbag49/nodulation.html

It says Rhizobia have been found on the roots of that species, based
on this reference book: Brewbaker, J.L. 1987. Significant nitrogen
fixing trees in agroforestry systems. Agroforestry: realities,
possibilities and potentials, pp.31-45. Martinus Nijhoff, Dordrecht,
Netherlands.

The page has a pretty comprehensive list of both known and unknown
responses in a wide range of legumes, and some related info on RNB.
It seems to be an extension of a previous paper by Allen and Allen
1981; but in spite of giving a large list of references, the buggers
don't elaborate on that one! At a guess it could refer to...
Allen O.N., Allen E.K. (1981) The Leguminosae: a Source Book of
Characteristics, Uses and Nodulation. MacMillan: London.

Thanks to all who replied. Here's an example of what I get when I look
for a particular species, /Caesalpinia gilliesii/.

"Nitrogen fixation None"
http://plants.nrcs.usda.gov/cgi_bin/plant_attribute.cgi?symbol=CAGI

That may be the result of actual research. (Then again, maybe not.

"No fertilizing is required, these plants fix nitrogen in the soil."
http://www.monrovia.com/PlantInf.nsf...87e69/f018b4fc
37a9469488256f250065bf53!OpenDocument&Click=88256 8470064D136.77a6cc4887b5c2ab88
256f0e007d62a5/$Body/0.2512

That is most probably due to uncritical misguided faith in the idea
that "Legumes fix nitrogen from the air." It ain't necessarily so.

But maybe I'll find a consensus on some other species. Anyway, I think
the answer to my questions is, "If it looks like it's short of
nitrogen, give it some."

What a good idea! ;-) But, be aware that there's a fair body of
research showing even legumes with a good reputation for N fixation
may become parasitic on soil N if there's enough of it around. I
assume they will revert to fixing the stuff if the external supply
runs out; but there's at least a potential problem if the effective
RNB population has been seriously reduced or even died out due to
competition with ineffective strains in the presence of lots of N.

Cheers, Phred.

--
LID

wrote:
[...]
Thanks to all who replied. Here's an example of what I get when I look
for a particular species, /Caesalpinia gilliesii/.

"Nitrogen fixation None"
http://plants.nrcs.usda.gov/cgi_bin/plant_attribute.cgi?symbol=CAGI

"No fertilizing is required, these plants fix nitrogen in the soil."
http://www.monrovia.com/PlantInf.nsf/3e858bc84af1756c88256f0a00787e69/f018b4fc37a9469488256f250065bf53!OpenDocument&Clic k=882568470064D136.77a6cc4887b5c2ab88256f0e007d62a 5/$Body/0.2512

But maybe I'll find a consensus on some other species. Anyway, I think
the answer to my questions is, "If it looks like it's short of
nitrogen, give it some."

Hi, Jerry! (Naiveté follows.) If they grow these plants successfully
in the Botanic Garden in Albuquerque, are they the kind of people who'd
let you have a few handfuls of soil for d-i-y inoculation?

--
Mike.

Hey Jerry,

the most common nitrogen fixing bacteria is azospirillum brasilense. It should work where you are in NM because it works best when soil temp is above 60F. Azosprillum doesn't only fix nitrogen, it improves plant hormone growth (naturally of course) and improves initial root structure by up to 300%. The leader in the field lives in NM actually; an Israeli called Dr Yoav Bashan and he's got some great research papers available (much easier to get if you're a student )
but for other information, i came across this site when looking for mycorrhiza (which works phenomenally well in the soil conditions of places like NM) reforest.com/desk/questions/6670/Azospirillum+brasilense+for+landscape+management