I have a Paph. Macabre that now has a big seedpod.
Not really sure how that happened but what should
I do with it? Is it worth saving or should I just ditch
it? If I should save it how would you do so if the plant
is in need of repotting - it's a VERY happy plant apparently. ;-)

Ruth CM

RPM1 wrote:

I have a Paph. Macabre that now has a big seedpod.
Not really sure how that happened but what should
I do with it? Is it worth saving or should I just ditch
it? If I should save it how would you do so if the plant
is in need of repotting - it's a VERY happy plant apparently. ;-)


If you aren't sure how it happened, then pitch it. Nothing worse
than an unknown cross.... It costs far too much time and money to
raise orphaned seeds to blooming size.

Anyway, I'd cut it off and enjoy your plant. If you _do_ want to
raise some paphs from seed, then the next time your Macabre blooms, hand
pollinate it and make a label. Memory is even worse than no label, in
my opinion.

Rob

--
Rob's Rules: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a. See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to purchase
more orchids, obtain more credit

Subject: Paph seedpod?
From: Rob Halgren
Date: 4/26/2004 8:43 AM Central Daylight Time
Message-id:

RPM1 wrote:

I have a Paph. Macabre that now has a big seedpod.
Not really sure how that happened but what should
I do with it? Is it worth saving or should I just ditch
it? If I should save it how would you do so if the plant
is in need of repotting - it's a VERY happy plant apparently. ;-)


If you aren't sure how it happened, then pitch it. Nothing worse
than an unknown cross.... It costs far too much time and money to
raise orphaned seeds to blooming size.

Anyway, I'd cut it off and enjoy your plant. If you _do_ want to
raise some paphs from seed, then the next time your Macabre blooms, hand
pollinate it and make a label. Memory is even worse than no label, in
my opinion.


Forget what Rob's saying. If you want seeds, go ahead and try. Probably not
worth flasking, but worth letting it ripen and tossing it into a pot. Maybe
you'll get a couple seedlings. You know one parent, it could well be a
self-pollination, and you can never have too many Paphs, known or unknown.

-

theoneflasehaddock

"Rob Halgren"
If you aren't sure how it happened, then pitch it.

My son "saves" ladybugs in the house and then nicely
puts them with my orchids. That's all I can figure.

Ruth CM

theoneflasehaddock wrote:

Forget what Rob's saying. If you want seeds, go ahead and try.
Probably notworth flasking, but worth letting it ripen and tossing it
into a pot. Maybe

you'll get a couple seedlings. You know one parent, it could well be a
self-pollination, and you can never have too many Paphs, known or unknown.



I can't possibly disagree more, and I don't disagree often. You can
never have too many paphs. That part is unquestionably true. But,
setting seed on a paph is a stressful exercise. You can kill a plant
that way, if it isn't healthy to begin with, and can set back a plant
that is healthy. If you really love your paph, don't set seed on it,
especially since you say it needs repotting. It isn't worth the risk
(albeit slight) of harming your plant to get a few worthless seedlings.
Unknown, ******* paphs are not worth anything to anybody. Sure, some of
them might turn out great, but they still won't be worth anything to
anybody who grows orchids. If you know what both parents are, and if
you expect the progeny will be good, then I would strongly suggest
making the cross and finding out. Plant breeding is not the sole domain
of 'experts', plenty of complete novices have made some very nice
hybrids, and even Terry Root had to start somewhere. But you have to
know both parents.

Save room in your collection (nobody has infinite space) for well
labeled plants. Keep the good ones, and throw away the bad ones
(regardless of labels). Make a point of evaluating the collection a
few times a year, and discard any plants that are performing poorly or
are just not up to whatever standards you want to apply. You are the
one that has to be happy, apply your own standards and to hell with the
people who tell you otherwise. These habits are essential to having a
good collection of any size (10 or 10 million plants). I'm a big fan
of having too many plants, but you need to select wisely. You may have
noticed that it costs money to grow orchids, no matter what scale you
grow at. Per plant, the fertilizer, pots, potting mix, time,
electricity and heat cost the same regardless of the initial cost of the
plant. Free plants are not always a good deal. You manage your
investments, I presume, so manage your orchid collection as well.
Orchids are an investment, even if you never plan on selling a single one.

None of that should be construed to suggest you shouldn't experiment
with things. God bless you if you want to try throwing some seeds at
the base of the mother plant, or even flasking some of them. Go for it,
it is an educational experience, and it is always fun to learn new
things. But, I think you would have more long term satisfaction if you
started out with a batch of seeds with proper provenance. Ask around,
maybe somebody can send you some. I'd send you some if I had any right
now.


Rob

--
Rob's Rules: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a. See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to purchase
more orchids, obtain more credit

RPM1,

Listen to Rob and follow his advice.

It is people like "theoneflasehaddock" who won't even list "his/her" own
name on RGO that pollute and diminish this hobby with unknown *******
crosses which unqualified people will eventually give
unsupported/unsubstantiated names in the future that really **** off
buyers/collectors in later years.

As far as tossing the pod in a pot to grow for funnzies... why waste your
time and money? Go buy a few labeled paphs from a legitimate grower and
satisfy your need for more plants if that is the case. Plus your Macabre
will use the new found energy after hacking the pod off to grow even bigger
and more beautiful for next year.

Mick

Subject: Paph seedpod?
From: "Mick Fournier"
Date: 4/26/2004 11:12 AM Central Daylight Time
Message-id:

RPM1,

Listen to Rob and follow his advice.

It is people like "theoneflasehaddock" who won't even list "his/her" own
name on RGO

What in the hell does my name have to do with anything? It's none of your
****ing business.

that pollute and diminish this hobby with unknown *******
crosses which unqualified people will eventually give
unsupported/unsubstantiated names in the future that really **** off
buyers/collectors in later years.

If you don't like plants without known names, don't buy them. You don't need to
go around attacking people for creating them.

BTW, this wouldn't be a no-name plant. One parent is known, obviously. As for
the other parent, I'm sure, being in a house, there were a limited number of
Paphs that could have pollinated it. In that situation, I'd grow them out, see
how they turn out.

If anything, it's good practice for when you get seeds of a known cross. It
doesn't seem like many people try and grow from seed anymore, perhaps with good
reason, but that don't mean you shouldn't try.

As for giving out unsubstantiated names, I have nowhere recommended giving
names to unknown plants. Try and stick to the subject during your flames,
they'll be more effective if they are in response to something actually said.
That's not something I would do, or reccommend. Unknown hybrids are just
that... unknown hybrids. Growing them isn't the same as claiming they are
something else.


As far as tossing the pod in a pot to grow for funnzies... why waste your
time and money? Go buy a few labeled paphs from a legitimate grower and
satisfy your need for more plants if that is the case. Plus your Macabre
will use the new found energy after hacking the pod off to grow even bigger
and more beautiful for next year.

There are a great many people that whine about how seedpods tax the energy of
plants. This is true, but, they are also the natural way many plants get
propagated. They aren't going to kill the plant, unless it is already in
trouble, or you have quite a few.
As for a waste of time and money... not knowing what to do when you manage to
get seeds off a desirable plant is a waste of time, money, and the plants
energy. Why not practice on ones that don't matter as much? There is a serious
lack of knowledge about starting from seed among orchid hobbiests.

-

theoneflasehaddock

"theoneflasehaddock"
I'm sure, being in a house, there were a limited number of
Paphs that could have pollinated it.

I only have one Paph. The only other plants that have been
in bloom have been Milt. Ron's Rippling Delight, Vuyl Yokara
Perfection, Brsdm. Shooting Star Black Gold and of course the
Paph. The rest are a dozen assorted former trash rescue/hospital
patients which are now, with healthy growth and roots, ready for
pots. The Paph is extremely robust right now. I'd hate to
compromise it.

Ruth CM

RPM1 wrote:

"theoneflasehaddock"


I'm sure, being in a house, there were a limited number of
Paphs that could have pollinated it.



I only have one Paph. The only other plants that have been
in bloom have been Milt. Ron's Rippling Delight, Vuyl Yokara
Perfection, Brsdm. Shooting Star Black Gold and of course the
Paph. The rest are a dozen assorted former trash rescue/hospital
patients which are now, with healthy growth and roots, ready for
pots. The Paph is extremely robust right now. I'd hate to
compromise it.



Well, that makes it easier... In general, no matter how hard you
try, even knowing one parent is insufficient to determine the other
parent, especially with hybrids. Not entirely true, depending on the
line of breeding (hybrids between two distinct species are pretty easy
to figure out). But, in your case, what you have is a selfing. None of
your other orchids could have pollinated your paphiopedilum. They just
can't. So, by deduction, the plant must have fertilized itself.

So, one of two things is probably going on. 1. Somehow you managed
to get the pollen from your plant on the stigma of your plant. This is
usually difficult without trying to do it. Sometimes it is difficult
even if you try to do it... 2. You don't actually have a seed pod.
Sometimes the ovary (the part right behind the flower) hangs on, looks a
little swollen, and stays green for a long time after the flower parts
have fallen. There aren't actually any seeds in there. I'd wager that
you are seeing exhibit (2). There is a finite chance that it was
pollinated when you bought it, if it was in bloom, but unlikely if the
flower lasted a long time in your hands.

However. If you have a robust plant, and you thought the flower was
excellent, you will be safe in leaving the 'pod' on the plant until you
know one way or the other. Make a label that says "Paph. Macabre x
self", and wire it to the stem so it doesn't get lost. It is Macabre,
right? Even better, name your particular plant, like this: Paph.
Macabre "Rob Said So" (you can choose your own clonal name). Then your
tag looks like: Paph. Macabre "Rob Said So" x self. You can give a
clonal name to any plant you choose, it goes in quotation marks, and the
major benefit to this is that (someday, when you are doing this more
often) you will know which one of your many Macabres you used to make
that particularly stunning set of seedlings.

You will know you have seeds when the capsule dehisces (drys out and
splits open). Dry powdery seeds will fall out, and you can tap them out
onto a sheet of white paper. Sow/flask/admire as you see fit. They are
really, really small, but each seed is indeed visible to the naked eye,
if you look close. There is no guarantee (and there never is) that this
seed is viable (alive). If you get seedlings, you may safely label them
as Paph. Macabre. Macabre x Macabre is still Macabre (it isn't good
science, but it is the rules). If you get seed, and you are still
interested in trying to get baby orchids, there are plenty of resources
on the web that tell you how to do it, more than a few books, or you
could just drop me a line and I'll give you some more information.

Have fun!

Rob

--
Rob's Rules: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a. See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to purchase
more orchids, obtain more credit

Subject: Paph seedpod?
From: "RPM1"
Date: 4/26/2004 12:39 PM Central Daylight Time
Message-id:

"theoneflasehaddock"
I'm sure, being in a house, there were a limited number of
Paphs that could have pollinated it.

I only have one Paph. The only other plants that have been
in bloom have been Milt. Ron's Rippling Delight, Vuyl Yokara
Perfection, Brsdm. Shooting Star Black Gold and of course the
Paph. The rest are a dozen assorted former trash rescue/hospital
patients which are now, with healthy growth and roots, ready for
pots. The Paph is extremely robust right now. I'd hate to
compromise it.



Well, then it's self-pollinated. Paphs can't really be crossed with any other
genus (as far as I know, I don't know if it's possible with Cypripediums, but
definitely not anything else).

Personally, I don't expect that the seedpod would significantly compromise it,
but Rob has more experience than me with seepods on Paphs, you should listen to
him, unless you want seedlings.

Personally, I'm trying for seedpods on one of my Paphs soon. I'll find out
firsthand how much it sets them back. I can say for sure that on Phals and
Dendrobiums, it isn't noticeable, but Paphs could well be a different story. If
it's extremely robust right now, that's the best time for a seedpod. But, if
you're not ready to try and germinate them, the seedpod won't do any good
anyways, and it is possible it would set it back.

Depends if you want a bunch of little Paph Macabre all over the place.

-


theoneflasehaddock

"theoneflasehaddock"
Depends if you want a bunch of little Paph Macabre all over the place.

If it is a seedpod, with my luck every blessed one will
germinate. How many seeds do they make? Lemme
guess, thousands?

Mostly OT story:

This past Christmas my son's grandma ordered painted lady
butterfly caterpillars with the whole rig to grow butterflies.
10 caterpillars, fine. They grew, they morphed, they were
lovely butterflies. VERY happy butterflies apparently b/c
I woke up one day to find the "Butterfly Pavilion" covered
with tiny little caterpillars! Call the company and they said
that we must have been doing something right b/c they usually
don't breed and if they do they rarely produce fertile eggs.
Forty five bucks later for a rush order of caterpillar food had us
raising 100 caterpillars! Talk about the gift that kept on giving.
I figured how to separate the males from the females. The
last 2 died right before Easter. I guess they liked living next
to my orchids. :-) Not only did they breed successfully they
lived much longer than they were supposed to.

Do I really want to go thru that with a bunch of tiny little
Paphs? Now, if they were Cypripediums ... you bet!

Ruth CM

theoneflasehaddock wrote:

Well, then it's self-pollinated. Paphs can't really be crossed with
any other

genus (as far as I know, I don't know if it's possible with Cypripediums, but
definitely not anything else).



Nope, not cyps, phrags, or selenipediums either. If you do manage
to make that work, let me know... *grin* And if you would be so kind
as to not tell anybody else until I get a few thousand up to blooming
size, that would help too.

Personally, I don't expect that the seedpod would significantly compromise it,
but Rob has more experience than me with seepods on Paphs, you should listen to
him, unless you want seedlings.



Depends a lot on the type of breeding, actually. Maudiae types
(like Macabre) are very vigorous in general, and might not even notice.
Less vigorous plants (many species, some complex hybrids) may take quite
a hit. I know somebody who set too many capsules on a very nice Paph.
kolopakingii (which can have 8 or more flowers per inflorescence) and
killed the poor thing. That might be an extreme example. In general,
if you aren't breeding on purpose, it is always better to remove any
capsules that might form. It has to take some energy, which could be
devoted to growing and flowering. Every little bit helps.

For the same reason, a lot of people will cut spikes on first bloom
paphs. I've seen people cut phal spikes too. These incredibly patient
people would rather give the plant another year of uninterrupted growth
and see the next flowering at something more closely approximating the
full potential of the plant. I've done it a few times, but it hurts...
I don't have the moral fortitude for it.

Depends if you want a bunch of little Paph Macabre all over the place.



There are a lot of new Macabre which are simply stunning compared to
older versions of that cross. Look for them. The 'old' ones are nice,
the new ones are awe inspiring. If it were me, I might play with
growing some seeds, but I would spend my money on some of that new set
of Macabres. Orchid Zone made this last batch using superior parents.
Various vendors are selling them, if they have any left. Ask for the
newest Orchid Zone Macabres by name, a paph specialist will know what
you are talking about. It is possible that other breeders have also
remade the cross with improved parents, I have only seen the OZ ones.

Rob

--
Rob's Rules: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a. See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to purchase
more orchids, obtain more credit

"Rob Halgren"
It is Macabre, right?

Yessir.

Even better, name your particular plant, like this: Paph.
Macabre "Rob Said So" (you can choose your own clonal name). Then your
tag looks like: Paph. Macabre "Rob Said So" x self.

LOL. Sold! Paph. Macabre "Rob Said So" x self
it is! I can hear my husband now, "WHO is Rob and
WHAT did he say?"

Thanks for all the info guys. I'll noodle it around for a
bit and then get out the scissors, or not...

The flower was fine one day and then boom it shriveled
and dropped. The spike turned brown very quickly as did
the pod. The pod is fat-ish but if you touch it ever so lightly
it feels like a little balloon (like it's full of nothing/air).

Ruth CM

RPM1 wrote:

"Rob Halgren"


It is Macabre, right?



Yessir.



Even better, name your particular plant, like this: Paph.
Macabre "Rob Said So" (you can choose your own clonal name). Then your
tag looks like: Paph. Macabre "Rob Said So" x self.



LOL. Sold! Paph. Macabre "Rob Said So" x self
it is! I can hear my husband now, "WHO is Rob and
WHAT did he say?"



Just print out a copy of the 'rules' and tell him I said that...

The flower was fine one day and then boom it shriveled
and dropped. The spike turned brown very quickly as did
the pod. The pod is fat-ish but if you touch it ever so lightly
it feels like a little balloon (like it's full of nothing/air).


You can cut it now. If it were pollinated it would be firm, and
solid. Several months from now it would slowly feel more hollow as the
seeds mature and dry out. Sorry, no baby Macabres for you. You can
always adopt. I'd suggest some vinicolors. Maybe Cyberspace, or Voodoo
Magic.

Other people who bought this paph also bought .... We need a
suggestion engine like Amazon.

Rob

--
Rob's Rules: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a. See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to purchase
more orchids, obtain more credit

"Rob Halgren"
You can cut it now. If it were pollinated it would be firm, and
solid. Several months from now it would slowly feel more hollow as the
seeds mature and dry out. Sorry, no baby Macabres for you.

OH, that's okay! Seriously. whew

You can
always adopt. I'd suggest some vinicolors. Maybe Cyberspace, or Voodoo
Magic.

Going off to search now...

Other people who bought this paph also bought .... We need a
suggestion engine like Amazon.

Excellent idea! Let me know when the code is done
and bug free. ;-)

Ruth CM