Sorry Ray. You said it and I agree with it but I can not let anyone
over-analize me and my back hurts from making a gravel parking lot out of my
front yard and it is raining so I have time to annoy you all with my version
of what you said. Also, I lay claim to "Most Anal" as well as "Most
Verbose". These are my titles. At least in the two Usenet newsgroups
dedicated to Orchids. Mine, mine, all mine. Anybody who wants them will
eventually have to face me in the ring. And you know who you are...

When dealing with *naturally occurring species* in taxonomy speak you get
several levels of taxon below species rank that us hobbyists always confuse
when speaking about our plants:

subspecies (abr. ssp.)
The rank of taxa below species but above variety; a subdivision of a species
whose members have certain hereditary characteristics distinct from other
populations of that species. A subspecies is added to the specific binomial
and preceded by "ssp.," such as obtusifolia in the epithet Grevillea
thelemanniana ssp. obtusifolia.

variety (alt. varietas, abr. var.)
The rank of taxa below subspecies but above forma; a plant which retains
most of the characteristics of the species, but differs in some way such as
flower or leaf color, size of mature plant, etc. A variety is added to the
specific binomial and preceded by "var.," such as saxatilis in the epithet
Juniperus communis var. saxatilis.

forma (abr. f.)
The rank of taxa below variety; the narrowest taxon; a plant which retains
most of the characteristics of the species, but differs in some way such as
flower or leaf color, size of mature plant, etc. Flower and fruit color
variation are the traits most often accorded forma status. These
differences are random and sporadic in the population over the species
range. A forma is added to the specific binomial and preceded by "f.," such
as rubra in the epithet Cornus florida f. rubra.

Some of my botany textbooks elevate variety to the same level as subspecies
and insert cultivar just above forma. Cultivars are man-made. They do not
have to be clones. It is possible to have a cultivar level population of
seed grown plants. Many vegetable seed packages are named cultivars that
all produce a plant with specific characteristics, such as disease
resistance of flower color, etc, even though other characteristics may vary,
like plant height, branching, etc....

It is possible to have a cultivar of a variety. An example would be Cornus
florida var. rubra. This is the naturally occurring pink form of a white
flowering dogwood. (Some of my books say it is not a variety but a forma
because it is a random difference and appears in little clumps over the
natural range of the species and so refer to it thusly: Cornus florida f.
rubra.) Anyway, you can go to the garden center and buy the dark red
cultivar called Cornus florida var. rubra 'Cherokee Chief' And if you are
still with me, sometimes the tag just reads "Cherokee Chief" and assumes
perhaps you just want to buy it and plant it and nothing more.

There is a sliding range in printed literature and jargon: taxonomy through
botany through horticulture through hobbyist where the above terms can mix
and match to the point of semi-homogeneity. Most of use know which plant we
are referring to even when we use one of these words imprecisely. On our
level, the levels of hobbyist and horticulturist, we as a group almost
always exchange the terms variety and cultivar. As a group... Listen to
people talking at your next society meeting and you'll see it is even worse
than that. I hear people use the word species when talking about a grex and
it makes me shudder and foam and fall down while everybody else just keeps
talking like there is nothing wrong with this picture. ("What's wrong with
him? Isn't that what mad cow disease looks like?")

Al
One more time with feeling: "The earth is a *sphere*. It is the *universe*
that's flat!"



"Ray" wrote in message
...
My understanding is that a "variety" is a natural, or should I say
"botanical" plant which shows minor characteristics that make it differ
from
the typical form. A horticultural- or cultivated variety (cultivar) is
simply a specific plant - and it's meditatively (divisions) or
meristmatically (clones) propagations - in cultivation.

So... Doritis pulcherrima v. chumpornensis is a variety of Doritis
pulcherrima, while Doritis pulcherrima v. chumpornensis 'Damn that's Ugly'
is a cultivar of Doritis pulcherrima v. chumpornensis.

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info!

. . . . . . . . . . .
"tbell" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 30 Mar 2004 14:24:42 -0800, Ray wrote
(in message ):

OK, time for what is possibly an overly-anal response.

True Spice is NOT a variety, but a cultivar, so should be labeled as
Slc.
Paprika 'True Spice'

Because I share your proclivity, Ray, I must ask the difference between
a
variety and a cultivar.
Tom
Walnut Creek, CA
To reply by e-mail, please remove APPENDIX

Sorry Ray. You said it and I agree with it but I can not let anyone
over-analize me and my back hurts from making a gravel parking lot out of my
front yard and it is raining so I have time to annoy you all with my version
of what you said. Also, I lay claim to "Most Anal" as well as "Most
Verbose". These are my titles. At least in the two Usenet newsgroups
dedicated to Orchids. Mine, mine, all mine. Anybody who wants them will
eventually have to face me in the ring. And you know who you are...

When dealing with *naturally occurring species* in taxonomy speak you get
several levels of taxon below species rank that us hobbyists always confuse
when speaking about our plants:

subspecies (abr. ssp.)
The rank of taxa below species but above variety; a subdivision of a species
whose members have certain hereditary characteristics distinct from other
populations of that species. A subspecies is added to the specific binomial
and preceded by "ssp.," such as obtusifolia in the epithet Grevillea
thelemanniana ssp. obtusifolia.

variety (alt. varietas, abr. var.)
The rank of taxa below subspecies but above forma; a plant which retains
most of the characteristics of the species, but differs in some way such as
flower or leaf color, size of mature plant, etc. A variety is added to the
specific binomial and preceded by "var.," such as saxatilis in the epithet
Juniperus communis var. saxatilis.

forma (abr. f.)
The rank of taxa below variety; the narrowest taxon; a plant which retains
most of the characteristics of the species, but differs in some way such as
flower or leaf color, size of mature plant, etc. Flower and fruit color
variation are the traits most often accorded forma status. These
differences are random and sporadic in the population over the species
range. A forma is added to the specific binomial and preceded by "f.," such
as rubra in the epithet Cornus florida f. rubra.

Some of my botany textbooks elevate variety to the same level as subspecies
and insert cultivar just above forma. Cultivars are man-made. They do not
have to be clones. It is possible to have a cultivar level population of
seed grown plants. Many vegetable seed packages are named cultivars that
all produce a plant with specific characteristics, such as disease
resistance of flower color, etc, even though other characteristics may vary,
like plant height, branching, etc....

It is possible to have a cultivar of a variety. An example would be Cornus
florida var. rubra. This is the naturally occurring pink form of a white
flowering dogwood. (Some of my books say it is not a variety but a forma
because it is a random difference and appears in little clumps over the
natural range of the species and so refer to it thusly: Cornus florida f.
rubra.) Anyway, you can go to the garden center and buy the dark red
cultivar called Cornus florida var. rubra 'Cherokee Chief' And if you are
still with me, sometimes the tag just reads "Cherokee Chief" and assumes
perhaps you just want to buy it and plant it and nothing more.

There is a sliding range in printed literature and jargon: taxonomy through
botany through horticulture through hobbyist where the above terms can mix
and match to the point of semi-homogeneity. Most of use know which plant we
are referring to even when we use one of these words imprecisely. On our
level, the levels of hobbyist and horticulturist, we as a group almost
always exchange the terms variety and cultivar. As a group... Listen to
people talking at your next society meeting and you'll see it is even worse
than that. I hear people use the word species when talking about a grex and
it makes me shudder and foam and fall down while everybody else just keeps
talking like there is nothing wrong with this picture. ("What's wrong with
him? Isn't that what mad cow disease looks like?")

Al
One more time with feeling: "The earth is a *sphere*. It is the *universe*
that's flat!"



"Ray" wrote in message
...
My understanding is that a "variety" is a natural, or should I say
"botanical" plant which shows minor characteristics that make it differ
from
the typical form. A horticultural- or cultivated variety (cultivar) is
simply a specific plant - and it's meditatively (divisions) or
meristmatically (clones) propagations - in cultivation.

So... Doritis pulcherrima v. chumpornensis is a variety of Doritis
pulcherrima, while Doritis pulcherrima v. chumpornensis 'Damn that's Ugly'
is a cultivar of Doritis pulcherrima v. chumpornensis.

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info!

. . . . . . . . . . .
"tbell" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 30 Mar 2004 14:24:42 -0800, Ray wrote
(in message ):

OK, time for what is possibly an overly-anal response.

True Spice is NOT a variety, but a cultivar, so should be labeled as
Slc.
Paprika 'True Spice'

Because I share your proclivity, Ray, I must ask the difference between
a
variety and a cultivar.
Tom
Walnut Creek, CA
To reply by e-mail, please remove APPENDIX

Sorry Ray. You said it and I agree with it but I can not let anyone
over-analize me and my back hurts from making a gravel parking lot out of my
front yard and it is raining so I have time to annoy you all with my version
of what you said. Also, I lay claim to "Most Anal" as well as "Most
Verbose". These are my titles. At least in the two Usenet newsgroups
dedicated to Orchids. Mine, mine, all mine. Anybody who wants them will
eventually have to face me in the ring. And you know who you are...

When dealing with *naturally occurring species* in taxonomy speak you get
several levels of taxon below species rank that us hobbyists always confuse
when speaking about our plants:

subspecies (abr. ssp.)
The rank of taxa below species but above variety; a subdivision of a species
whose members have certain hereditary characteristics distinct from other
populations of that species. A subspecies is added to the specific binomial
and preceded by "ssp.," such as obtusifolia in the epithet Grevillea
thelemanniana ssp. obtusifolia.

variety (alt. varietas, abr. var.)
The rank of taxa below subspecies but above forma; a plant which retains
most of the characteristics of the species, but differs in some way such as
flower or leaf color, size of mature plant, etc. A variety is added to the
specific binomial and preceded by "var.," such as saxatilis in the epithet
Juniperus communis var. saxatilis.

forma (abr. f.)
The rank of taxa below variety; the narrowest taxon; a plant which retains
most of the characteristics of the species, but differs in some way such as
flower or leaf color, size of mature plant, etc. Flower and fruit color
variation are the traits most often accorded forma status. These
differences are random and sporadic in the population over the species
range. A forma is added to the specific binomial and preceded by "f.," such
as rubra in the epithet Cornus florida f. rubra.

Some of my botany textbooks elevate variety to the same level as subspecies
and insert cultivar just above forma. Cultivars are man-made. They do not
have to be clones. It is possible to have a cultivar level population of
seed grown plants. Many vegetable seed packages are named cultivars that
all produce a plant with specific characteristics, such as disease
resistance of flower color, etc, even though other characteristics may vary,
like plant height, branching, etc....

It is possible to have a cultivar of a variety. An example would be Cornus
florida var. rubra. This is the naturally occurring pink form of a white
flowering dogwood. (Some of my books say it is not a variety but a forma
because it is a random difference and appears in little clumps over the
natural range of the species and so refer to it thusly: Cornus florida f.
rubra.) Anyway, you can go to the garden center and buy the dark red
cultivar called Cornus florida var. rubra 'Cherokee Chief' And if you are
still with me, sometimes the tag just reads "Cherokee Chief" and assumes
perhaps you just want to buy it and plant it and nothing more.

There is a sliding range in printed literature and jargon: taxonomy through
botany through horticulture through hobbyist where the above terms can mix
and match to the point of semi-homogeneity. Most of use know which plant we
are referring to even when we use one of these words imprecisely. On our
level, the levels of hobbyist and horticulturist, we as a group almost
always exchange the terms variety and cultivar. As a group... Listen to
people talking at your next society meeting and you'll see it is even worse
than that. I hear people use the word species when talking about a grex and
it makes me shudder and foam and fall down while everybody else just keeps
talking like there is nothing wrong with this picture. ("What's wrong with
him? Isn't that what mad cow disease looks like?")

Al
One more time with feeling: "The earth is a *sphere*. It is the *universe*
that's flat!"



"Ray" wrote in message
...
My understanding is that a "variety" is a natural, or should I say
"botanical" plant which shows minor characteristics that make it differ
from
the typical form. A horticultural- or cultivated variety (cultivar) is
simply a specific plant - and it's meditatively (divisions) or
meristmatically (clones) propagations - in cultivation.

So... Doritis pulcherrima v. chumpornensis is a variety of Doritis
pulcherrima, while Doritis pulcherrima v. chumpornensis 'Damn that's Ugly'
is a cultivar of Doritis pulcherrima v. chumpornensis.

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info!

. . . . . . . . . . .
"tbell" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 30 Mar 2004 14:24:42 -0800, Ray wrote
(in message ):

OK, time for what is possibly an overly-anal response.

True Spice is NOT a variety, but a cultivar, so should be labeled as
Slc.
Paprika 'True Spice'

Because I share your proclivity, Ray, I must ask the difference between
a
variety and a cultivar.
Tom
Walnut Creek, CA
To reply by e-mail, please remove APPENDIX

Sorry Ray. You said it and I agree with it but I can not let anyone
over-analize me and my back hurts from making a gravel parking lot out of my
front yard and it is raining so I have time to annoy you all with my version
of what you said. Also, I lay claim to "Most Anal" as well as "Most
Verbose". These are my titles. At least in the two Usenet newsgroups
dedicated to Orchids. Mine, mine, all mine. Anybody who wants them will
eventually have to face me in the ring. And you know who you are...

When dealing with *naturally occurring species* in taxonomy speak you get
several levels of taxon below species rank that us hobbyists always confuse
when speaking about our plants:

subspecies (abr. ssp.)
The rank of taxa below species but above variety; a subdivision of a species
whose members have certain hereditary characteristics distinct from other
populations of that species. A subspecies is added to the specific binomial
and preceded by "ssp.," such as obtusifolia in the epithet Grevillea
thelemanniana ssp. obtusifolia.

variety (alt. varietas, abr. var.)
The rank of taxa below subspecies but above forma; a plant which retains
most of the characteristics of the species, but differs in some way such as
flower or leaf color, size of mature plant, etc. A variety is added to the
specific binomial and preceded by "var.," such as saxatilis in the epithet
Juniperus communis var. saxatilis.

forma (abr. f.)
The rank of taxa below variety; the narrowest taxon; a plant which retains
most of the characteristics of the species, but differs in some way such as
flower or leaf color, size of mature plant, etc. Flower and fruit color
variation are the traits most often accorded forma status. These
differences are random and sporadic in the population over the species
range. A forma is added to the specific binomial and preceded by "f.," such
as rubra in the epithet Cornus florida f. rubra.

Some of my botany textbooks elevate variety to the same level as subspecies
and insert cultivar just above forma. Cultivars are man-made. They do not
have to be clones. It is possible to have a cultivar level population of
seed grown plants. Many vegetable seed packages are named cultivars that
all produce a plant with specific characteristics, such as disease
resistance of flower color, etc, even though other characteristics may vary,
like plant height, branching, etc....

It is possible to have a cultivar of a variety. An example would be Cornus
florida var. rubra. This is the naturally occurring pink form of a white
flowering dogwood. (Some of my books say it is not a variety but a forma
because it is a random difference and appears in little clumps over the
natural range of the species and so refer to it thusly: Cornus florida f.
rubra.) Anyway, you can go to the garden center and buy the dark red
cultivar called Cornus florida var. rubra 'Cherokee Chief' And if you are
still with me, sometimes the tag just reads "Cherokee Chief" and assumes
perhaps you just want to buy it and plant it and nothing more.

There is a sliding range in printed literature and jargon: taxonomy through
botany through horticulture through hobbyist where the above terms can mix
and match to the point of semi-homogeneity. Most of use know which plant we
are referring to even when we use one of these words imprecisely. On our
level, the levels of hobbyist and horticulturist, we as a group almost
always exchange the terms variety and cultivar. As a group... Listen to
people talking at your next society meeting and you'll see it is even worse
than that. I hear people use the word species when talking about a grex and
it makes me shudder and foam and fall down while everybody else just keeps
talking like there is nothing wrong with this picture. ("What's wrong with
him? Isn't that what mad cow disease looks like?")

Al
One more time with feeling: "The earth is a *sphere*. It is the *universe*
that's flat!"



"Ray" wrote in message
...
My understanding is that a "variety" is a natural, or should I say
"botanical" plant which shows minor characteristics that make it differ
from
the typical form. A horticultural- or cultivated variety (cultivar) is
simply a specific plant - and it's meditatively (divisions) or
meristmatically (clones) propagations - in cultivation.

So... Doritis pulcherrima v. chumpornensis is a variety of Doritis
pulcherrima, while Doritis pulcherrima v. chumpornensis 'Damn that's Ugly'
is a cultivar of Doritis pulcherrima v. chumpornensis.

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info!

. . . . . . . . . . .
"tbell" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 30 Mar 2004 14:24:42 -0800, Ray wrote
(in message ):

OK, time for what is possibly an overly-anal response.

True Spice is NOT a variety, but a cultivar, so should be labeled as
Slc.
Paprika 'True Spice'

Because I share your proclivity, Ray, I must ask the difference between
a
variety and a cultivar.
Tom
Walnut Creek, CA
To reply by e-mail, please remove APPENDIX

Sorry Ray. You said it and I agree with it but I can not let anyone
over-analize me and my back hurts from making a gravel parking lot out of my
front yard and it is raining so I have time to annoy you all with my version
of what you said. Also, I lay claim to "Most Anal" as well as "Most
Verbose". These are my titles. At least in the two Usenet newsgroups
dedicated to Orchids. Mine, mine, all mine. Anybody who wants them will
eventually have to face me in the ring. And you know who you are...

When dealing with *naturally occurring species* in taxonomy speak you get
several levels of taxon below species rank that us hobbyists always confuse
when speaking about our plants:

subspecies (abr. ssp.)
The rank of taxa below species but above variety; a subdivision of a species
whose members have certain hereditary characteristics distinct from other
populations of that species. A subspecies is added to the specific binomial
and preceded by "ssp.," such as obtusifolia in the epithet Grevillea
thelemanniana ssp. obtusifolia.

variety (alt. varietas, abr. var.)
The rank of taxa below subspecies but above forma; a plant which retains
most of the characteristics of the species, but differs in some way such as
flower or leaf color, size of mature plant, etc. A variety is added to the
specific binomial and preceded by "var.," such as saxatilis in the epithet
Juniperus communis var. saxatilis.

forma (abr. f.)
The rank of taxa below variety; the narrowest taxon; a plant which retains
most of the characteristics of the species, but differs in some way such as
flower or leaf color, size of mature plant, etc. Flower and fruit color
variation are the traits most often accorded forma status. These
differences are random and sporadic in the population over the species
range. A forma is added to the specific binomial and preceded by "f.," such
as rubra in the epithet Cornus florida f. rubra.

Some of my botany textbooks elevate variety to the same level as subspecies
and insert cultivar just above forma. Cultivars are man-made. They do not
have to be clones. It is possible to have a cultivar level population of
seed grown plants. Many vegetable seed packages are named cultivars that
all produce a plant with specific characteristics, such as disease
resistance of flower color, etc, even though other characteristics may vary,
like plant height, branching, etc....

It is possible to have a cultivar of a variety. An example would be Cornus
florida var. rubra. This is the naturally occurring pink form of a white
flowering dogwood. (Some of my books say it is not a variety but a forma
because it is a random difference and appears in little clumps over the
natural range of the species and so refer to it thusly: Cornus florida f.
rubra.) Anyway, you can go to the garden center and buy the dark red
cultivar called Cornus florida var. rubra 'Cherokee Chief' And if you are
still with me, sometimes the tag just reads "Cherokee Chief" and assumes
perhaps you just want to buy it and plant it and nothing more.

There is a sliding range in printed literature and jargon: taxonomy through
botany through horticulture through hobbyist where the above terms can mix
and match to the point of semi-homogeneity. Most of use know which plant we
are referring to even when we use one of these words imprecisely. On our
level, the levels of hobbyist and horticulturist, we as a group almost
always exchange the terms variety and cultivar. As a group... Listen to
people talking at your next society meeting and you'll see it is even worse
than that. I hear people use the word species when talking about a grex and
it makes me shudder and foam and fall down while everybody else just keeps
talking like there is nothing wrong with this picture. ("What's wrong with
him? Isn't that what mad cow disease looks like?")

Al
One more time with feeling: "The earth is a *sphere*. It is the *universe*
that's flat!"



"Ray" wrote in message
...
My understanding is that a "variety" is a natural, or should I say
"botanical" plant which shows minor characteristics that make it differ
from
the typical form. A horticultural- or cultivated variety (cultivar) is
simply a specific plant - and it's meditatively (divisions) or
meristmatically (clones) propagations - in cultivation.

So... Doritis pulcherrima v. chumpornensis is a variety of Doritis
pulcherrima, while Doritis pulcherrima v. chumpornensis 'Damn that's Ugly'
is a cultivar of Doritis pulcherrima v. chumpornensis.

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info!

. . . . . . . . . . .
"tbell" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 30 Mar 2004 14:24:42 -0800, Ray wrote
(in message ):

OK, time for what is possibly an overly-anal response.

True Spice is NOT a variety, but a cultivar, so should be labeled as
Slc.
Paprika 'True Spice'

Because I share your proclivity, Ray, I must ask the difference between
a
variety and a cultivar.
Tom
Walnut Creek, CA
To reply by e-mail, please remove APPENDIX

Sorry Ray. You said it and I agree with it but I can not let anyone
over-analize me and my back hurts from making a gravel parking lot out of my
front yard and it is raining so I have time to annoy you all with my version
of what you said. Also, I lay claim to "Most Anal" as well as "Most
Verbose". These are my titles. At least in the two Usenet newsgroups
dedicated to Orchids. Mine, mine, all mine. Anybody who wants them will
eventually have to face me in the ring. And you know who you are...

When dealing with *naturally occurring species* in taxonomy speak you get
several levels of taxon below species rank that us hobbyists always confuse
when speaking about our plants:

subspecies (abr. ssp.)
The rank of taxa below species but above variety; a subdivision of a species
whose members have certain hereditary characteristics distinct from other
populations of that species. A subspecies is added to the specific binomial
and preceded by "ssp.," such as obtusifolia in the epithet Grevillea
thelemanniana ssp. obtusifolia.

variety (alt. varietas, abr. var.)
The rank of taxa below subspecies but above forma; a plant which retains
most of the characteristics of the species, but differs in some way such as
flower or leaf color, size of mature plant, etc. A variety is added to the
specific binomial and preceded by "var.," such as saxatilis in the epithet
Juniperus communis var. saxatilis.

forma (abr. f.)
The rank of taxa below variety; the narrowest taxon; a plant which retains
most of the characteristics of the species, but differs in some way such as
flower or leaf color, size of mature plant, etc. Flower and fruit color
variation are the traits most often accorded forma status. These
differences are random and sporadic in the population over the species
range. A forma is added to the specific binomial and preceded by "f.," such
as rubra in the epithet Cornus florida f. rubra.

Some of my botany textbooks elevate variety to the same level as subspecies
and insert cultivar just above forma. Cultivars are man-made. They do not
have to be clones. It is possible to have a cultivar level population of
seed grown plants. Many vegetable seed packages are named cultivars that
all produce a plant with specific characteristics, such as disease
resistance of flower color, etc, even though other characteristics may vary,
like plant height, branching, etc....

It is possible to have a cultivar of a variety. An example would be Cornus
florida var. rubra. This is the naturally occurring pink form of a white
flowering dogwood. (Some of my books say it is not a variety but a forma
because it is a random difference and appears in little clumps over the
natural range of the species and so refer to it thusly: Cornus florida f.
rubra.) Anyway, you can go to the garden center and buy the dark red
cultivar called Cornus florida var. rubra 'Cherokee Chief' And if you are
still with me, sometimes the tag just reads "Cherokee Chief" and assumes
perhaps you just want to buy it and plant it and nothing more.

There is a sliding range in printed literature and jargon: taxonomy through
botany through horticulture through hobbyist where the above terms can mix
and match to the point of semi-homogeneity. Most of use know which plant we
are referring to even when we use one of these words imprecisely. On our
level, the levels of hobbyist and horticulturist, we as a group almost
always exchange the terms variety and cultivar. As a group... Listen to
people talking at your next society meeting and you'll see it is even worse
than that. I hear people use the word species when talking about a grex and
it makes me shudder and foam and fall down while everybody else just keeps
talking like there is nothing wrong with this picture. ("What's wrong with
him? Isn't that what mad cow disease looks like?")

Al
One more time with feeling: "The earth is a *sphere*. It is the *universe*
that's flat!"



"Ray" wrote in message
...
My understanding is that a "variety" is a natural, or should I say
"botanical" plant which shows minor characteristics that make it differ
from
the typical form. A horticultural- or cultivated variety (cultivar) is
simply a specific plant - and it's meditatively (divisions) or
meristmatically (clones) propagations - in cultivation.

So... Doritis pulcherrima v. chumpornensis is a variety of Doritis
pulcherrima, while Doritis pulcherrima v. chumpornensis 'Damn that's Ugly'
is a cultivar of Doritis pulcherrima v. chumpornensis.

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info!

. . . . . . . . . . .
"tbell" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 30 Mar 2004 14:24:42 -0800, Ray wrote
(in message ):

OK, time for what is possibly an overly-anal response.

True Spice is NOT a variety, but a cultivar, so should be labeled as
Slc.
Paprika 'True Spice'

Because I share your proclivity, Ray, I must ask the difference between
a
variety and a cultivar.
Tom
Walnut Creek, CA
To reply by e-mail, please remove APPENDIX

On Wed, 31 Mar 2004 6:42:49 -0800, Al wrote
(in message ):

Also, I lay claim to "Most Anal" as well as "Most
Verbose". These are my titles. At least in the two Usenet newsgroups
dedicated to Orchids. Mine, mine, all mine. Anybody who wants them will
eventually have to face me in the ring. And you know who you are...

You have succeeded well beyond my pitiful pretensions. I humbly yield the
crown!

Tom
Walnut Creek, CA
To reply by e-mail, please remove APPENDIX

On Wed, 31 Mar 2004 6:42:49 -0800, Al wrote
(in message ):

Also, I lay claim to "Most Anal" as well as "Most
Verbose". These are my titles. At least in the two Usenet newsgroups
dedicated to Orchids. Mine, mine, all mine. Anybody who wants them will
eventually have to face me in the ring. And you know who you are...

You have succeeded well beyond my pitiful pretensions. I humbly yield the
crown!

Tom
Walnut Creek, CA
To reply by e-mail, please remove APPENDIX

But Al, all I did was paraphrase what was in the AOS' "An Orchidists
Glossary!"

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info!

.. . . . . . . . . . .
"Al" wrote in message
...
Sorry Ray. You said it and I agree with it but I can not let anyone
over-analize me and my back hurts from making a gravel parking lot out of
my
front yard and it is raining so I have time to annoy you all with my
version
of what you said. Also, I lay claim to "Most Anal" as well as "Most
Verbose". These are my titles. At least in the two Usenet newsgroups
dedicated to Orchids. Mine, mine, all mine. Anybody who wants them will
eventually have to face me in the ring. And you know who you are...

When dealing with *naturally occurring species* in taxonomy speak you get
several levels of taxon below species rank that us hobbyists always
confuse
when speaking about our plants:

subspecies (abr. ssp.)
The rank of taxa below species but above variety; a subdivision of a
species
whose members have certain hereditary characteristics distinct from other
populations of that species. A subspecies is added to the specific
binomial
and preceded by "ssp.," such as obtusifolia in the epithet Grevillea
thelemanniana ssp. obtusifolia.

variety (alt. varietas, abr. var.)
The rank of taxa below subspecies but above forma; a plant which retains
most of the characteristics of the species, but differs in some way such
as
flower or leaf color, size of mature plant, etc. A variety is added to the
specific binomial and preceded by "var.," such as saxatilis in the epithet
Juniperus communis var. saxatilis.

forma (abr. f.)
The rank of taxa below variety; the narrowest taxon; a plant which retains
most of the characteristics of the species, but differs in some way such
as
flower or leaf color, size of mature plant, etc. Flower and fruit color
variation are the traits most often accorded forma status. These
differences are random and sporadic in the population over the species
range. A forma is added to the specific binomial and preceded by "f.,"
such
as rubra in the epithet Cornus florida f. rubra.

Some of my botany textbooks elevate variety to the same level as
subspecies
and insert cultivar just above forma. Cultivars are man-made. They do
not
have to be clones. It is possible to have a cultivar level population of
seed grown plants. Many vegetable seed packages are named cultivars that
all produce a plant with specific characteristics, such as disease
resistance of flower color, etc, even though other characteristics may
vary,
like plant height, branching, etc....

It is possible to have a cultivar of a variety. An example would be
Cornus
florida var. rubra. This is the naturally occurring pink form of a white
flowering dogwood. (Some of my books say it is not a variety but a forma
because it is a random difference and appears in little clumps over the
natural range of the species and so refer to it thusly: Cornus florida f.
rubra.) Anyway, you can go to the garden center and buy the dark red
cultivar called Cornus florida var. rubra 'Cherokee Chief' And if you are
still with me, sometimes the tag just reads "Cherokee Chief" and assumes
perhaps you just want to buy it and plant it and nothing more.

There is a sliding range in printed literature and jargon: taxonomy
through
botany through horticulture through hobbyist where the above terms can mix
and match to the point of semi-homogeneity. Most of use know which plant
we
are referring to even when we use one of these words imprecisely. On our
level, the levels of hobbyist and horticulturist, we as a group almost
always exchange the terms variety and cultivar. As a group... Listen to
people talking at your next society meeting and you'll see it is even
worse
than that. I hear people use the word species when talking about a grex
and
it makes me shudder and foam and fall down while everybody else just keeps
talking like there is nothing wrong with this picture. ("What's wrong
with
him? Isn't that what mad cow disease looks like?")

Al
One more time with feeling: "The earth is a *sphere*. It is the
*universe*
that's flat!"



"Ray" wrote in message
...
My understanding is that a "variety" is a natural, or should I say
"botanical" plant which shows minor characteristics that make it differ
from
the typical form. A horticultural- or cultivated variety (cultivar) is
simply a specific plant - and it's meditatively (divisions) or
meristmatically (clones) propagations - in cultivation.

So... Doritis pulcherrima v. chumpornensis is a variety of Doritis
pulcherrima, while Doritis pulcherrima v. chumpornensis 'Damn that's
Ugly'
is a cultivar of Doritis pulcherrima v. chumpornensis.

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info!

. . . . . . . . . . .
"tbell" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 30 Mar 2004 14:24:42 -0800, Ray wrote
(in message ):

OK, time for what is possibly an overly-anal response.

True Spice is NOT a variety, but a cultivar, so should be labeled as
Slc.
Paprika 'True Spice'

Because I share your proclivity, Ray, I must ask the difference
between
a
variety and a cultivar.
Tom
Walnut Creek, CA
To reply by e-mail, please remove APPENDIX

But Al, all I did was paraphrase what was in the AOS' "An Orchidists
Glossary!"

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info!

.. . . . . . . . . . .
"Al" wrote in message
...
Sorry Ray. You said it and I agree with it but I can not let anyone
over-analize me and my back hurts from making a gravel parking lot out of
my
front yard and it is raining so I have time to annoy you all with my
version
of what you said. Also, I lay claim to "Most Anal" as well as "Most
Verbose". These are my titles. At least in the two Usenet newsgroups
dedicated to Orchids. Mine, mine, all mine. Anybody who wants them will
eventually have to face me in the ring. And you know who you are...

When dealing with *naturally occurring species* in taxonomy speak you get
several levels of taxon below species rank that us hobbyists always
confuse
when speaking about our plants:

subspecies (abr. ssp.)
The rank of taxa below species but above variety; a subdivision of a
species
whose members have certain hereditary characteristics distinct from other
populations of that species. A subspecies is added to the specific
binomial
and preceded by "ssp.," such as obtusifolia in the epithet Grevillea
thelemanniana ssp. obtusifolia.

variety (alt. varietas, abr. var.)
The rank of taxa below subspecies but above forma; a plant which retains
most of the characteristics of the species, but differs in some way such
as
flower or leaf color, size of mature plant, etc. A variety is added to the
specific binomial and preceded by "var.," such as saxatilis in the epithet
Juniperus communis var. saxatilis.

forma (abr. f.)
The rank of taxa below variety; the narrowest taxon; a plant which retains
most of the characteristics of the species, but differs in some way such
as
flower or leaf color, size of mature plant, etc. Flower and fruit color
variation are the traits most often accorded forma status. These
differences are random and sporadic in the population over the species
range. A forma is added to the specific binomial and preceded by "f.,"
such
as rubra in the epithet Cornus florida f. rubra.

Some of my botany textbooks elevate variety to the same level as
subspecies
and insert cultivar just above forma. Cultivars are man-made. They do
not
have to be clones. It is possible to have a cultivar level population of
seed grown plants. Many vegetable seed packages are named cultivars that
all produce a plant with specific characteristics, such as disease
resistance of flower color, etc, even though other characteristics may
vary,
like plant height, branching, etc....

It is possible to have a cultivar of a variety. An example would be
Cornus
florida var. rubra. This is the naturally occurring pink form of a white
flowering dogwood. (Some of my books say it is not a variety but a forma
because it is a random difference and appears in little clumps over the
natural range of the species and so refer to it thusly: Cornus florida f.
rubra.) Anyway, you can go to the garden center and buy the dark red
cultivar called Cornus florida var. rubra 'Cherokee Chief' And if you are
still with me, sometimes the tag just reads "Cherokee Chief" and assumes
perhaps you just want to buy it and plant it and nothing more.

There is a sliding range in printed literature and jargon: taxonomy
through
botany through horticulture through hobbyist where the above terms can mix
and match to the point of semi-homogeneity. Most of use know which plant
we
are referring to even when we use one of these words imprecisely. On our
level, the levels of hobbyist and horticulturist, we as a group almost
always exchange the terms variety and cultivar. As a group... Listen to
people talking at your next society meeting and you'll see it is even
worse
than that. I hear people use the word species when talking about a grex
and
it makes me shudder and foam and fall down while everybody else just keeps
talking like there is nothing wrong with this picture. ("What's wrong
with
him? Isn't that what mad cow disease looks like?")

Al
One more time with feeling: "The earth is a *sphere*. It is the
*universe*
that's flat!"



"Ray" wrote in message
...
My understanding is that a "variety" is a natural, or should I say
"botanical" plant which shows minor characteristics that make it differ
from
the typical form. A horticultural- or cultivated variety (cultivar) is
simply a specific plant - and it's meditatively (divisions) or
meristmatically (clones) propagations - in cultivation.

So... Doritis pulcherrima v. chumpornensis is a variety of Doritis
pulcherrima, while Doritis pulcherrima v. chumpornensis 'Damn that's
Ugly'
is a cultivar of Doritis pulcherrima v. chumpornensis.

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info!

. . . . . . . . . . .
"tbell" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 30 Mar 2004 14:24:42 -0800, Ray wrote
(in message ):

OK, time for what is possibly an overly-anal response.

True Spice is NOT a variety, but a cultivar, so should be labeled as
Slc.
Paprika 'True Spice'

Because I share your proclivity, Ray, I must ask the difference
between
a
variety and a cultivar.
Tom
Walnut Creek, CA
To reply by e-mail, please remove APPENDIX

Al wrote:

I should probably stop taking that pain medication I bought online through a
link in an email I got. I just wanted to answer too. There was nothing
wrong with your answer and you and tbell are not even contenders for my
titles. Sigh...



Well, don't tell anybody, but I'm going to get the riches of an
entire African nation, just out of the goodness of some little old
presidential widow's heart. Can't wait for that check to come in.

The universe is still flat.



Add a little seltzer water to it, that will perk it up.


Rob

--
Rob's Rules: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a. See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to purchase
more orchids, obtain more credit

Al wrote:

I should probably stop taking that pain medication I bought online through a
link in an email I got. I just wanted to answer too. There was nothing
wrong with your answer and you and tbell are not even contenders for my
titles. Sigh...



Well, don't tell anybody, but I'm going to get the riches of an
entire African nation, just out of the goodness of some little old
presidential widow's heart. Can't wait for that check to come in.

The universe is still flat.



Add a little seltzer water to it, that will perk it up.


Rob

--
Rob's Rules: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a. See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to purchase
more orchids, obtain more credit

....and while I wait for MY share of that, Rob, I'll have the pleasure of
growing my breasts at least two cup sizes!


--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info!

.. . . . . . . . . . .
"Rob Halgren" wrote in message
...
Al wrote:

I should probably stop taking that pain medication I bought online
through a
link in an email I got. I just wanted to answer too. There was nothing
wrong with your answer and you and tbell are not even contenders for my
titles. Sigh...



Well, don't tell anybody, but I'm going to get the riches of an
entire African nation, just out of the goodness of some little old
presidential widow's heart. Can't wait for that check to come in.

The universe is still flat.



Add a little seltzer water to it, that will perk it up.


Rob

--
Rob's Rules: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a. See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to purchase
more orchids, obtain more credit

....and while I wait for MY share of that, Rob, I'll have the pleasure of
growing my breasts at least two cup sizes!


--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info!

.. . . . . . . . . . .
"Rob Halgren" wrote in message
...
Al wrote:

I should probably stop taking that pain medication I bought online
through a
link in an email I got. I just wanted to answer too. There was nothing
wrong with your answer and you and tbell are not even contenders for my
titles. Sigh...



Well, don't tell anybody, but I'm going to get the riches of an
entire African nation, just out of the goodness of some little old
presidential widow's heart. Can't wait for that check to come in.

The universe is still flat.



Add a little seltzer water to it, that will perk it up.


Rob

--
Rob's Rules: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a. See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to purchase
more orchids, obtain more credit

Hmm, strangely enough I have never gotten an offer on growing my breasts, I
have gotten plenty of offers with subject "Size does matter" but it is never
about breasts. I am thinking that somewhere out there in a culture where all
masculine names end with the letter "a" some minimum wage employee is
spending long hours meticulously sorting emails to try to ensure that the
messages reach their proper audience.

Joanna

"Ray" wrote in message
...
...and while I wait for MY share of that, Rob, I'll have the pleasure of
growing my breasts at least two cup sizes!


--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info!

. . . . . . . . . . .
"Rob Halgren" wrote in message
...
Al wrote:

I should probably stop taking that pain medication I bought online
through a
link in an email I got. I just wanted to answer too. There was
nothing
wrong with your answer and you and tbell are not even contenders for my
titles. Sigh...



Well, don't tell anybody, but I'm going to get the riches of an
entire African nation, just out of the goodness of some little old
presidential widow's heart. Can't wait for that check to come in.

The universe is still flat.



Add a little seltzer water to it, that will perk it up.


Rob

--
Rob's Rules: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a. See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to purchase
more orchids, obtain more credit