Hi All, Has anyone noticed that The A.O.S. headquarters in DelRay
Beach is selling orchid plants at wholesale prices??? This to the
detriment of any commercial growers in the area. This passed weekend
they held a blowout sale!! They sent notices to all south Florida
Orchid Societies to the effect that on 10/11-12 they would sell plants
to society members at greatly reduced prices. (how much lower can they
go????) What makes this especially disgusting is that they timed their
sale to coincide with the Fort Pierce Orchid Society's Show. This show
was A.O.S. sanctioned and judged--so they can't say they didn't know.
Was this an attempt to hurt the Fort Pierce Show???? You can bet on
it!!! Are they slapping commercial growers in the area, in the face???
You can bet on it!! Another thing that is unethical AND illegal is
that they are using their TAX EXEMPT status to advertise all of this.
Orchid Societies and commercial growers account for most of the A.O.S.
membership. (not only do all of the above pay dues, but they
distribute more membership applications than anyone else!!!!! I am
told that Lee Cook is primarily responsable for this. TRY TO GET HIM
ON THE PHONE, OR TRY TO GET HIM TO RETURN PHONE CALLS!!!!! They are
laying themselves wide open for a class-action lawsuit. I hope this
can be stopped, but so far the "Powers that be" seem to be thumbing
their noses at us "Little Folks" who are so dumb--that every election
time we blindly send in our proxies so that "THE BIG WHEELS" stay in
power & pretty much do as they please. If you want to contact Lee
---just tell the operator who answers the phone that you want to make
a large donation---He'll respond to that !!!!! Bill

The subject of AOS competition with professional growers has been discussed
here before, and drew mixed reactions. I very much appreciated the very
supportive email I received from the many of you who fully understood the
unfairness of AOS' abuse of its non-profit status in this regard (and I
thank those of you who complained to AOS about it). Although I think it
short-sighted, I can also understand the position of those few who are (at
least temporarily) enjoying the opportunity to purchase orchids at far less
than their fair market value at the AOS gift shop.

But for AOS to treat one of its own affiliated societies so shabbily just
flat boggles my mind! An OS's show is usually its single major fundraiser
for the year; if it doesn't make money there, it has to get it elsewhere
[most likely a dues increase], cut back on expenses [e.g., canned AOS
presentations instead of paid speakers at meetings], or perhaps even fold up
shop altogether -- in which case, I wonder how many of its former members
will continue paying their AOS dues???

--
Kenni Judd
Juno Beach Orchids

http://www.jborchids.com

"William Hill" wrote in message
om...
Hi All, Has anyone noticed that The A.O.S. headquarters in DelRay
Beach is selling orchid plants at wholesale prices??? This to the
detriment of any commercial growers in the area. This passed weekend
they held a blowout sale!! They sent notices to all south Florida
Orchid Societies to the effect that on 10/11-12 they would sell plants
to society members at greatly reduced prices. (how much lower can they
go????) What makes this especially disgusting is that they timed their
sale to coincide with the Fort Pierce Orchid Society's Show. This show
was A.O.S. sanctioned and judged--so they can't say they didn't know.
Was this an attempt to hurt the Fort Pierce Show???? You can bet on
it!!! Are they slapping commercial growers in the area, in the face???
You can bet on it!! Another thing that is unethical AND illegal is
that they are using their TAX EXEMPT status to advertise all of this.
Orchid Societies and commercial growers account for most of the A.O.S.
membership. (not only do all of the above pay dues, but they
distribute more membership applications than anyone else!!!!! I am
told that Lee Cook is primarily responsable for this. TRY TO GET HIM
ON THE PHONE, OR TRY TO GET HIM TO RETURN PHONE CALLS!!!!! They are
laying themselves wide open for a class-action lawsuit. I hope this
can be stopped, but so far the "Powers that be" seem to be thumbing
their noses at us "Little Folks" who are so dumb--that every election
time we blindly send in our proxies so that "THE BIG WHEELS" stay in
power & pretty much do as they please. If you want to contact Lee
---just tell the operator who answers the phone that you want to make
a large donation---He'll respond to that !!!!! Bill

On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 12:28:24 -0400, "Kenni Judd"
wrote:

The subject of AOS competition with professional growers has been discussed
here before, and drew mixed reactions.

It certainly sounds unfair and a poor way for the organization to
treat their members. I'm not currently an AOS member, but it would
seem reasonable for those who are members to send email or write to
AOS and get their official response / position.

deg

Whoa, Bill!

I didn't know about this situation. My next question is, "Why didn't I
know?". If a letter went out to the societies, I ought to have it. Hmm.

In any event, though I personally think that the situation you described
begs to be corrected, it didn't hurt Fort Pierce, thankfully. It was a
great, busy show.

Diana

On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 21:04:55 GMT, "Diana Kulaga"
wrote:

In any event, though I personally think that the situation you described
begs to be corrected, it didn't hurt Fort Pierce, thankfully. It was a
great, busy show.

Diana


How far are you from Headquarters? I do think it begs the
question. They should not be in direct competition with any OS
sponsored event within reasonable distance. And any large scale
sale should include members all over. A steady small scaled sale
I would expect to turn over the excess plants from the
collection.
On the other hand Bill, I can not see how they are calling this
"n/p business" and not taxable business such as when a church
owns apartment buildings.

SuE
http://orchids.legolas.org/gallery/albums.php

In the interest of fairness here is Lee Cooke's response to Kenni and
William

He responded on the AOS Forum, where this thread originated.

K Barrett

Lee writes as follows:

Thanks for bringing this to our attention, Ms. Judd and Mr. Hill. I
apologize for the AOS if we've upset anyone with your society.

As the "season" starts coming into focus down here in South Florida, there
will be more and more orchid events and sales. Indeed, it's difficult to
schedule an event or sale down here that *doesn't* bump into another
affiliated-society or commercial-grower activity. This weekend, for
example, featured for our area's orchidists two pretty neat temptations --
your show and the SFOS's prestigious speakers day.

The AOS is, obviously, always trying to draw folks to the AOS Visitors
Center and Botanical Garden; spread the good word about our mutual passion;
and grow our membership. If we're successful, more aficionados mean more
local society members and more visits to local commercial growers, and,
ultimately, more readers of commercial growers' ads in Orchids magazine.
It's unlikely that we can totally avoid schedule conflicts, but one of the
ways that we've addressed that issue is to never offer anything associated
with a "y'all come visit" promotion in a singular, one-day format. Like
your own show, any promotions that we do are held over a multi-day period,
thus giving the area's orchidists, residents and visitors plenty of
opportunity to easily attend multiple orchid affairs during a single
weekend. In this particular case, we're running the sale in question for
*nine* days, which encompass *two* weekends. And, it is a sale on books and
merchandise only, not plants.

Mr. Hill, with all due respect, the requests that we sent to local
affiliates to run the word of the promotion in their newsletters (if they
had space and were inclined to do so) was generated as a promotion with one
thing in mind: to do something nice for our valued affiliated societies.
Letting the local societies' members into the botanical garden for free and
offering them sales on books and merchandise that we thought their
orchidist-members might value was thought to be a positive promotion when it
was brainstormed. I'm sorry that you've taken such offense to it. I assure
you that the request to run news of the promotion, as well as the weekend
itself, did nothing to affect our nonprofit status. We wouldn't jeopardize
that, Mr. Hill. (Also, for new visitors to our Forum who missed this
lengthy discussion in the past, what few plants we do sell are not, I assure
you, offered at wholesale prices.) Nor do we disrespect, in an way, form or
fashion, the important members of either the commercial-growers or the
affiliated-societies communities, as you seem to imply in your post. We
singularly strive for several things -- to extend the knowledge, production,
use and appreciation of orchids, and to provide real value to our members
and those tied to the hobby and trade. We may not bat 1.000 with every
initiative, but when we don't, it's not for lack of effort in trying to be
the very best organization that we can be for our varied audiences.

Next year, the FPOS should take advantage of the AOS Visitors Center and
Botanical Garden being open to visitors year-round by sending to us a few
weeks before your show fliers/brochures for us to display as "take-ones." A
number of South Florida societies do that; we even utilize some as
mini-posters. We'd be happy to actively promote your show, as we do on a
daily basis (via handouts to each customer, as well as with take-ones) the
area's commercial growers who are within a 90-minute drive of our facility.

Again, my apologies if we've offended anyone with the FPOS.

Lee

The notice in the Jupiter-Tequesta OS newsletter reads:

October 11-12 AOS is having an open house for all members of local orchid
societies. Local society members will be admitted for free to tour the
gardens and greenhouses. The AOS Emporium Gift Shop will be running
clearance specials on a variety of merchandise. ...

Don't know why they didn't send it to you ...

--
Kenni Judd
Juno Beach Orchids

http://www.jborchids.com
"Diana Kulaga" wrote in message
.net...
Whoa, Bill!

I didn't know about this situation. My next question is, "Why didn't I
know?". If a letter went out to the societies, I ought to have it. Hmm.

In any event, though I personally think that the situation you described
begs to be corrected, it didn't hurt Fort Pierce, thankfully. It was a
great, busy show.

Diana

"Diana Kulaga" wrote in message k.net...
Whoa, Bill!

I didn't know about this situation. My next question is, "Why didn't I
know?". If a letter went out to the societies, I ought to have it. Hmm.

In any event, though I personally think that the situation you described
begs to be corrected, it didn't hurt Fort Pierce, thankfully. It was a
great, busy show.

Diana

Hi Diana, I agree it was a great show at Fort Pierce--no one will ever
know how much better it could have been. If you didn't see the AOS
sale flyer (sent to all local societies) Ask Kenni, to fax you a copy
of the TOS newsletter. Bill

Bill,

Actually, I'm betting that the flyer got lost in transition because our
recording secretary was away for 2 months. I'll find out at next week's
board meeting.

Diana

"William Hill" wrote in message
m...
"Diana Kulaga" wrote in message
k.net...
Whoa, Bill!

I didn't know about this situation. My next question is, "Why didn't I
know?". If a letter went out to the societies, I ought to have it.
Hmm.

In any event, though I personally think that the situation you described
begs to be corrected, it didn't hurt Fort Pierce, thankfully. It was a
great, busy show.

Diana

Hi Diana, I agree it was a great show at Fort Pierce--no one will ever
know how much better it could have been. If you didn't see the AOS
sale flyer (sent to all local societies) Ask Kenni, to fax you a copy
of the TOS newsletter. Bill

How far are you from Headquarters? I do think it begs the
question

Fort Pierce (where I am not a member, btw,) is about 90 minutes from AOS HQ.
However, the post that Kathy put up may explain some of this away, if indeed
they were not selling discounted plants during that time, but other mdse.

Diana

4 quick notes:

1. Orchid people in Florida _will travel_. I've had people come
[specifically, not as a side-trip] to my nursery from as far away as
Gainesville [5 hours], Ocala [4+ hours], and Cocoa [4+ hours]; I routinely
see people at shows that have travelled 3 or more hours to attend.

2. There were vendors other than orchid growers at the FPOS show. There
was a supply vendor, Jim's Orchid Supplies; a vendor selling lovely orchid
jewelry and paintings; and a vendor selling wooden plantstands and
pot-hangers. Also, some of the growers had other merchandise, such as
orchid books, for sale at the show, in addition to their plants. All of
this is part of a good orchid show; I personally find it particularly
helpful to have a supply vendor present at a show [it boosts sales of
bareroot divisions tremendously, if customers can buy what they need to deal
with them right on the spot; also, they will usually lend, or certainly
sell, me whatever I forgot to pack that I _really_ need for my display, like
empty pots or a particular type of hanger G].

3. Perhaps it happened during the editing of the J-TOS newsletter, but I
certainly couldn't tell that plants were excluded from the "clearance sale"
from the notice that I read [and previously posted, so you can evaluate it
for yourself].

4. I, too, am not a member [or at least not an active member, I may have
joined for insurance purposes] of FPOS, and I was fortunate enough to have a
very good show there. Would it have been better without the AOS'
competition? I can't even imagine any way to know for sure. That being the
case, I think AOS should "err" on the side of respect for its affiliated
societies.

--
Kenni Judd
Juno Beach Orchids

http://www.jborchids.com
"Diana Kulaga" wrote in message
hlink.net...
How far are you from Headquarters? I do think it begs the
question

Fort Pierce (where I am not a member, btw,) is about 90 minutes from AOS
HQ.
However, the post that Kathy put up may explain some of this away, if
indeed
they were not selling discounted plants during that time, but other mdse.

Diana

I hope anyone who wanted to see the whole AOS Forum discussion has checked
it out already, because unless my browser is playing tricks on me, the
thread has been removed; older threads still appear, so it didn't just
"fall off the end" of the timeline ...

--
Kenni Judd
Juno Beach Orchids

http://www.jborchids.com
"K Barrett" wrote in message
news:_kHib.117078$%h1.123376@sccrnsc02...
In the interest of fairness here is Lee Cooke's response to Kenni and
William

He responded on the AOS Forum, where this thread originated.

K Barrett

Lee writes as follows:

Thanks for bringing this to our attention, Ms. Judd and Mr. Hill. I
apologize for the AOS if we've upset anyone with your society.

As the "season" starts coming into focus down here in South Florida, there
will be more and more orchid events and sales. Indeed, it's difficult to
schedule an event or sale down here that *doesn't* bump into another
affiliated-society or commercial-grower activity. This weekend, for
example, featured for our area's orchidists two pretty neat temptations --
your show and the SFOS's prestigious speakers day.

The AOS is, obviously, always trying to draw folks to the AOS Visitors
Center and Botanical Garden; spread the good word about our mutual
passion;
and grow our membership. If we're successful, more aficionados mean more
local society members and more visits to local commercial growers, and,
ultimately, more readers of commercial growers' ads in Orchids magazine.
It's unlikely that we can totally avoid schedule conflicts, but one of the
ways that we've addressed that issue is to never offer anything associated
with a "y'all come visit" promotion in a singular, one-day format. Like
your own show, any promotions that we do are held over a multi-day period,
thus giving the area's orchidists, residents and visitors plenty of
opportunity to easily attend multiple orchid affairs during a single
weekend. In this particular case, we're running the sale in question for
*nine* days, which encompass *two* weekends. And, it is a sale on books
and
merchandise only, not plants.

Mr. Hill, with all due respect, the requests that we sent to local
affiliates to run the word of the promotion in their newsletters (if they
had space and were inclined to do so) was generated as a promotion with
one
thing in mind: to do something nice for our valued affiliated societies.
Letting the local societies' members into the botanical garden for free
and
offering them sales on books and merchandise that we thought their
orchidist-members might value was thought to be a positive promotion when
it
was brainstormed. I'm sorry that you've taken such offense to it. I
assure
you that the request to run news of the promotion, as well as the weekend
itself, did nothing to affect our nonprofit status. We wouldn't
jeopardize
that, Mr. Hill. (Also, for new visitors to our Forum who missed this
lengthy discussion in the past, what few plants we do sell are not, I
assure
you, offered at wholesale prices.) Nor do we disrespect, in an way, form
or
fashion, the important members of either the commercial-growers or the
affiliated-societies communities, as you seem to imply in your post. We
singularly strive for several things -- to extend the knowledge,
production,
use and appreciation of orchids, and to provide real value to our members
and those tied to the hobby and trade. We may not bat 1.000 with every
initiative, but when we don't, it's not for lack of effort in trying to be
the very best organization that we can be for our varied audiences.

Next year, the FPOS should take advantage of the AOS Visitors Center and
Botanical Garden being open to visitors year-round by sending to us a few
weeks before your show fliers/brochures for us to display as "take-ones."
A
number of South Florida societies do that; we even utilize some as
mini-posters. We'd be happy to actively promote your show, as we do on a
daily basis (via handouts to each customer, as well as with take-ones) the
area's commercial growers who are within a 90-minute drive of our
facility.

Again, my apologies if we've offended anyone with the FPOS.

Lee

Kenni Judd wrote:

4 quick notes:

1. Orchid people in Florida _will travel_. I've had people come
[specifically, not as a side-trip] to my nursery from as far away as
Gainesville [5 hours], Ocala [4+ hours], and Cocoa [4+ hours]; I routinely
see people at shows that have travelled 3 or more hours to attend.



I myself travelled from Tampa to Kenni's nursery the last time I was
in Florida... No idea how far that is, it seemed like forever. But that
was many years ago and I believe we have both moved at least once since
then...

4. I, too, am not a member [or at least not an active member, I may have
joined for insurance purposes] of FPOS, and I was fortunate enough to have a
very good show there. Would it have been better without the AOS'
competition? I can't even imagine any way to know for sure. That being the
case, I think AOS should "err" on the side of respect for its affiliated
societies.


Well, I am an AOS member and will be attending at least one
committee meeting at the Trustees meeting (oh, wait, _members_ meeting)
in Sacramento next month. I won't get a chance to complain about this
particular matter in person, I'm sure. However, I would like to say
that as an orchid judge (student judge, until I can finish my homework)
we are supposed to avoid even the perception of impropriety. One might
reasonably expect the AOS as an organization to follow that as well. It
seems that the AOS headquarters, innocent or not, has managed to enter
into a state of perceived impropriety. I for one am a little disgusted
by what I have heard (admittedly only one side of the argument, but not
the first time I've heard it, either), and to the public it must look a
little shady. That is not good. If _I_ were in charge I'd stop the
practice of selling plants at headquarters until some reasonable
accomodation could be made with the local vendors. But again, I'm not
in charge... (and I don't want to be).

On the road again... Just can't wait to get back on the road
again... Wait, that isn't true, I'd rather be home watering my plants.
Stupid song....

Rob (Long Island this week, Left Coast next week, and another trip to
Thailand requested this evening... sheeesh).

--
Rob's Rules: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a. See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to purchase
more orchids, obtain more credit

There's one problem I perceive with the "appearance of impropriety," which
cuts from two directions:

1. Consider non-orchid growing folks who visit the AOS for the novelty,
and buy a plant for the same reason. To them, there is no impropriety, as
they have no knowledge of the conflict. They end up killing the plant
anyway. In this case, the AOS has "gotten away with" their bad behavior.

2. Then there's the grower who visits the AOS, buys a plant, and
ultimately gets hooked. They jump on the web, or join the AOS and start
perusing the ads in "Orchids." To them, the issue isn't that the AOS is
undercutting the commercial growers - the AOS is the "baseline" - it's the
fact that by contrast, everyone else appears to be gouging them on the
prices!

In both cases the AOS has, at best, done nothing to promote the growing of
orchids, and worse, has set expectations that damage the perceptions about
commercial growers.

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info!

.. . . . . . . . . . .
"Rob Halgren" wrote in message
...
Kenni Judd wrote:

4 quick notes:

1. Orchid people in Florida _will travel_. I've had people come
[specifically, not as a side-trip] to my nursery from as far away as
Gainesville [5 hours], Ocala [4+ hours], and Cocoa [4+ hours]; I
routinely
see people at shows that have travelled 3 or more hours to attend.



I myself travelled from Tampa to Kenni's nursery the last time I was
in Florida... No idea how far that is, it seemed like forever. But that
was many years ago and I believe we have both moved at least once since
then...

4. I, too, am not a member [or at least not an active member, I may have
joined for insurance purposes] of FPOS, and I was fortunate enough to
have a
very good show there. Would it have been better without the AOS'
competition? I can't even imagine any way to know for sure. That being
the
case, I think AOS should "err" on the side of respect for its affiliated
societies.


Well, I am an AOS member and will be attending at least one
committee meeting at the Trustees meeting (oh, wait, _members_ meeting)
in Sacramento next month. I won't get a chance to complain about this
particular matter in person, I'm sure. However, I would like to say
that as an orchid judge (student judge, until I can finish my homework)
we are supposed to avoid even the perception of impropriety. One might
reasonably expect the AOS as an organization to follow that as well. It
seems that the AOS headquarters, innocent or not, has managed to enter
into a state of perceived impropriety. I for one am a little disgusted
by what I have heard (admittedly only one side of the argument, but not
the first time I've heard it, either), and to the public it must look a
little shady. That is not good. If _I_ were in charge I'd stop the
practice of selling plants at headquarters until some reasonable
accomodation could be made with the local vendors. But again, I'm not
in charge... (and I don't want to be).

On the road again... Just can't wait to get back on the road
again... Wait, that isn't true, I'd rather be home watering my plants.
Stupid song....

Rob (Long Island this week, Left Coast next week, and another trip to
Thailand requested this evening... sheeesh).

--
Rob's Rules: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a. See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to purchase
more orchids, obtain more credit

Could someone give an example of the "wholesale prices" that the AOS
headquarters is supposedly selling plants for? Just because someone sells
plants at a reasonable price doesn't mean they are at wholesale. When a
Florida vendor (I don't remember which one) came to the SE Flower show last
year their prices were noticeably higher than the other vendors, maybe the
market down there is just due for a correction.

-danny

"Ray" wrote in message
...
There's one problem I perceive with the "appearance of impropriety," which
cuts from two directions:

1. Consider non-orchid growing folks who visit the AOS for the novelty,
and buy a plant for the same reason. To them, there is no impropriety, as
they have no knowledge of the conflict. They end up killing the plant
anyway. In this case, the AOS has "gotten away with" their bad behavior.

2. Then there's the grower who visits the AOS, buys a plant, and
ultimately gets hooked. They jump on the web, or join the AOS and start
perusing the ads in "Orchids." To them, the issue isn't that the AOS is
undercutting the commercial growers - the AOS is the "baseline" - it's
the
fact that by contrast, everyone else appears to be gouging them on the
prices!

In both cases the AOS has, at best, done nothing to promote the growing of
orchids, and worse, has set expectations that damage the perceptions about
commercial growers.

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info!

. . . . . . . . . . .
"Rob Halgren" wrote in message
...
Kenni Judd wrote:

4 quick notes:

1. Orchid people in Florida _will travel_. I've had people come
[specifically, not as a side-trip] to my nursery from as far away as
Gainesville [5 hours], Ocala [4+ hours], and Cocoa [4+ hours]; I
routinely
see people at shows that have travelled 3 or more hours to attend.



I myself travelled from Tampa to Kenni's nursery the last time I was
in Florida... No idea how far that is, it seemed like forever. But that
was many years ago and I believe we have both moved at least once since
then...

4. I, too, am not a member [or at least not an active member, I may
have
joined for insurance purposes] of FPOS, and I was fortunate enough to
have a
very good show there. Would it have been better without the AOS'
competition? I can't even imagine any way to know for sure. That
being
the
case, I think AOS should "err" on the side of respect for its
affiliated
societies.


Well, I am an AOS member and will be attending at least one
committee meeting at the Trustees meeting (oh, wait, _members_ meeting)
in Sacramento next month. I won't get a chance to complain about this
particular matter in person, I'm sure. However, I would like to say
that as an orchid judge (student judge, until I can finish my homework)
we are supposed to avoid even the perception of impropriety. One might
reasonably expect the AOS as an organization to follow that as well. It
seems that the AOS headquarters, innocent or not, has managed to enter
into a state of perceived impropriety. I for one am a little disgusted
by what I have heard (admittedly only one side of the argument, but not
the first time I've heard it, either), and to the public it must look a
little shady. That is not good. If _I_ were in charge I'd stop the
practice of selling plants at headquarters until some reasonable
accomodation could be made with the local vendors. But again, I'm not
in charge... (and I don't want to be).

On the road again... Just can't wait to get back on the road
again... Wait, that isn't true, I'd rather be home watering my plants.
Stupid song....

Rob (Long Island this week, Left Coast next week, and another trip to
Thailand requested this evening... sheeesh).

--
Rob's Rules: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a. See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to purchase
more orchids, obtain more credit