On a biz trip today I went Orchid shopping. Since I was close I dropped by
A World of Orchids in Orlando. They had seedlings of Paph vietnamense x
emersonii for sale for $25.

I know there are a very few vietnamense plants in legal cultivation but I
didn't think crosses with this parent were legal yet? What's the rule here?


BTW....AWoO is just as much of a tourist trap as I remembered.

Good Growing,
Gene

Well, there are at least 1 well know orchid importers who had vietnamense
hybrids for sale on their public lists at the 2002 Paph Guild last year.

AFAIK they are illegal (fruit of the poisonous tree and all that). But I
suppose it depends on whether the USFWS wants to pursue them.

But well regarded Florida Paph grower had them already.

K Barrett

"Gene Schurg" wrote in message
thlink.net...
On a biz trip today I went Orchid shopping. Since I was close I dropped
by
A World of Orchids in Orlando. They had seedlings of Paph vietnamense x
emersonii for sale for $25.

I know there are a very few vietnamense plants in legal cultivation but I
didn't think crosses with this parent were legal yet? What's the rule
here?


BTW....AWoO is just as much of a tourist trap as I remembered.

Good Growing,
Gene

Hi,
The taiwanese sell them in flasks too. And they come with documents!

jonathan
"K Barrett" wrote in message
newsddBa.155220$rt6.45541@sccrnsc02...
Well, there are at least 1 well know orchid importers who had vietnamense
hybrids for sale on their public lists at the 2002 Paph Guild last year.

AFAIK they are illegal (fruit of the poisonous tree and all that). But I
suppose it depends on whether the USFWS wants to pursue them.

But well regarded Florida Paph grower had them already.

K Barrett

"Gene Schurg" wrote in message
thlink.net...
On a biz trip today I went Orchid shopping. Since I was close I dropped
by
A World of Orchids in Orlando. They had seedlings of Paph vietnamense x
emersonii for sale for $25.

I know there are a very few vietnamense plants in legal cultivation but
I
didn't think crosses with this parent were legal yet? What's the rule
here?


BTW....AWoO is just as much of a tourist trap as I remembered.

Good Growing,
Gene

There ya go!
K Barrett

"Jonathan Phua" wrote in message
...
Hi,
The taiwanese sell them in flasks too. And they come with documents!

jonathan
"K Barrett" wrote in message
newsddBa.155220$rt6.45541@sccrnsc02...
Well, there are at least 1 well know orchid importers who had
vietnamense
hybrids for sale on their public lists at the 2002 Paph Guild last year.

AFAIK they are illegal (fruit of the poisonous tree and all that). But I
suppose it depends on whether the USFWS wants to pursue them.

But well regarded Florida Paph grower had them already.

K Barrett

"Gene Schurg" wrote in message
thlink.net...
On a biz trip today I went Orchid shopping. Since I was close I
dropped
by
A World of Orchids in Orlando. They had seedlings of Paph vietnamense
x
emersonii for sale for $25.

I know there are a very few vietnamense plants in legal cultivation
but
I
didn't think crosses with this parent were legal yet? What's the rule
here?


BTW....AWoO is just as much of a tourist trap as I remembered.

Good Growing,
Gene

Taiwanese plants may come with documents, but the FWS may still
have problems with them. I asked the US Fish and Wildlife Service's Office
of Management Authority not more than a month ago about buying a couple of
flasks; they asked about the origin, and I said they were from Taiwan.

Evidently the plants used for propagation in Taiwan were removed
from Vietnam under dubious circumstances, so even if they have legit
export permits, they are (as one other writer here put it) "fruit of the
poison tree." I suppose that applies to hybrids as well, but I really
don't know. They suggested that plants from Europe in flask are OK, those
from Taiwan aren't.

Go figure. Don't jump on my ass for any of this- I'm just
parroting what I was told. It's a legal quagmire.


-AJHicks
Chandler, AZ

"K Barrett" wrote in message news:pZoBa.1033095$F1.124164@sccrnsc04...
There ya go!
K Barrett


Not necessarily, and not in this case, unless something big has
changed in the last 6 weeks. Many countries around the world don't go
any further than the seeds (ie, don't care whether the seed came from
fruit from a poisonous tree, so to speak) -- as long as they're
growing in a flask, that's good enough for them. (In the case of
Taiwan, it's not even a CITES signatory, though it does supposedly
have domestic laws that mirror the key CITES provisions and its
paperwork is obviously accepted by most countries including the US.)

In this case, "paperwork" by itself isn't good enough since the USFWS
does not recognize the legal exportation of any of the plants from the
range state. Unless they change their position, the only way to
legally get plants without an Appendix I permit would be as art prop
from the range state itself. I don't know if Vietnam has exported
anything recently, but given their past history of reneging on CITES
documentation, I sure wouldn't be the first to place a big order.


FWIW, the USFWS says their interpretation of CITES is backed up by the
CITES Secretariat itself. Since the practice is so widespread, one
idly wonders said Secretariat don't do anything to try to stop it, but
that's another story. Yet more fodder for the anti-CITES folks, IMHO.


I've also seen these flasks here in the US -- in some cases I'm sure
the possessor knew they were "illegal," in others, I think they may
not have realized it. It's probably easy enough to get them in by
judiciously labelling them with just a number, if not actually
falsifying the tag. Also, unless something big has changed recently,
AOS rules don't allow for judging them and you'd be asking for trouble
by exhibiting or selling them at a very public venue.

MG

(Aaron Hicks) wrote in message ...

Taiwanese plants may come with documents, but the FWS may still
have problems with them. I asked the US Fish and Wildlife Service's Office
of Management Authority not more than a month ago about buying a couple of
flasks; they asked about the origin, and I said they were from Taiwan.

Evidently the plants used for propagation in Taiwan were removed
from Vietnam under dubious circumstances, so even if they have legit
export permits, they are (as one other writer here put it) "fruit of the
poison tree." I suppose that applies to hybrids as well, but I really
don't know. They suggested that plants from Europe in flask are OK, those
from Taiwan aren't.

Go figure. Don't jump on my ass for any of this- I'm just
parroting what I was told. It's a legal quagmire.


-AJHicks
Chandler, AZ

That sounds totally bizarre. How does USFWS know which parents are
which? Especially when, I'm sure, a lot of what's in Europe came from
Taiwan originally? And what happened to their insistence that VN
never issued valid CITES permits for *any* plants in the first place?
Are they now saying you can legally import these plants from Europe?
It just keeps getting better and better....

MG

Antec labs (www.ladyslipper.com) has legal flasks of vietnamense that came
from the Cites rescue center. They will be selling these soon but they are
years from producing legal pollen for crosses.

Once these are released into the market then we should see some legal plants
with vietnamense as a parent.

Gene


"Michael Gerzog" wrote in message
om...
(Aaron Hicks) wrote in message
...

Taiwanese plants may come with documents, but the FWS may still
have problems with them. I asked the US Fish and Wildlife Service's
Office
of Management Authority not more than a month ago about buying a couple
of
flasks; they asked about the origin, and I said they were from Taiwan.

Evidently the plants used for propagation in Taiwan were removed
from Vietnam under dubious circumstances, so even if they have legit
export permits, they are (as one other writer here put it) "fruit of the
poison tree." I suppose that applies to hybrids as well, but I really
don't know. They suggested that plants from Europe in flask are OK,
those
from Taiwan aren't.

Go figure. Don't jump on my ass for any of this- I'm just
parroting what I was told. It's a legal quagmire.


-AJHicks
Chandler, AZ

That sounds totally bizarre. How does USFWS know which parents are
which? Especially when, I'm sure, a lot of what's in Europe came from
Taiwan originally? And what happened to their insistence that VN
never issued valid CITES permits for *any* plants in the first place?
Are they now saying you can legally import these plants from Europe?
It just keeps getting better and better....

MG

"Gene Schurg" wrote in message rthlink.net...
Antec labs (www.ladyslipper.com) has legal flasks of vietnamense that came
from the Cites rescue center. They will be selling these soon

Yeah, I have my name on one of the second round set. But it sounds
like someone at USFWS suggested to Aaron that it's possible to import
them *now* (and if them, why not any other "new" paph that's available
in Europe?), which is contrary to what I've heard before, including a
post of an email from someone at USFWS itself.

MG

That's the way I understood it to be, too. But since the 1st poster said
they had paperwork, I chose to believe it. [slaps forehead] as if the USFWS
would change their minds! LOL!!

Quagmire it is and quagmire it will remain for the forseeable future.

K Barrett

"Michael Gerzog" wrote in message
om...
"K Barrett" wrote in message
news:pZoBa.1033095$F1.124164@sccrnsc04...
There ya go!
K Barrett


Not necessarily, and not in this case, unless something big has
changed in the last 6 weeks. Many countries around the world don't go
any further than the seeds (ie, don't care whether the seed came from
fruit from a poisonous tree, so to speak) -- as long as they're
growing in a flask, that's good enough for them. (In the case of
Taiwan, it's not even a CITES signatory, though it does supposedly
have domestic laws that mirror the key CITES provisions and its
paperwork is obviously accepted by most countries including the US.)

In this case, "paperwork" by itself isn't good enough since the USFWS
does not recognize the legal exportation of any of the plants from the
range state. Unless they change their position, the only way to
legally get plants without an Appendix I permit would be as art prop
from the range state itself. I don't know if Vietnam has exported
anything recently, but given their past history of reneging on CITES
documentation, I sure wouldn't be the first to place a big order.


FWIW, the USFWS says their interpretation of CITES is backed up by the
CITES Secretariat itself. Since the practice is so widespread, one
idly wonders said Secretariat don't do anything to try to stop it, but
that's another story. Yet more fodder for the anti-CITES folks, IMHO.


I've also seen these flasks here in the US -- in some cases I'm sure
the possessor knew they were "illegal," in others, I think they may
not have realized it. It's probably easy enough to get them in by
judiciously labelling them with just a number, if not actually
falsifying the tag. Also, unless something big has changed recently,
AOS rules don't allow for judging them and you'd be asking for trouble
by exhibiting or selling them at a very public venue.

MG

AND in a few years nobody will know which ones came from the wild or which ones were propagated. and all the illegal ones will finally
be shown



Michael Gerzog wrote:

"Gene Schurg" wrote in message rthlink.net...
Antec labs (www.ladyslipper.com) has legal flasks of vietnamense that came
from the Cites rescue center. They will be selling these soon

Yeah, I have my name on one of the second round set. But it sounds
like someone at USFWS suggested to Aaron that it's possible to import
them *now* (and if them, why not any other "new" paph that's available
in Europe?), which is contrary to what I've heard before, including a
post of an email from someone at USFWS itself.

MG

"A. N." wrote in message ...
AND in a few years nobody will know which ones came from the wild or which ones were propagated. and all the illegal ones will finally
be shown


Yes, people have already started importing "illegal" flasks, knowing
this will be the case. Just one more piece of evidence highlighting
the stupidity of the strict stance against artificially propagated
seedlings of any genus.

MG