To all you AOS judges and show chairpeople:

You see a Paph Ho Chi Minh in your show or one is sit in front of you at a
regional monthly judging:

Do you require anything to prove the plant/hybrid is legally imported or
comes from legally imported stock? Is a receipt from a vendor sufficient?

I have checked with a friend of mine who works at CITES and he informs me
that when I sell something like a Paph vietnamensis that I only need to
provide a receipt to the customer that shows they bought it from me. He
added that I should keep my paperwork in case they ever have questions about
where I got it. Do you all require something more if such a plant turns up
in a show or judging?

Forever curious,
Al

On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 22:49:44 -0400, "Al" wrote:

To all you AOS judges and show chairpeople:

You see a Paph Ho Chi Minh in your show or one is sit in front of you at a
regional monthly judging:

Do you require anything to prove the plant/hybrid is legally imported or
comes from legally imported stock? Is a receipt from a vendor sufficient?

I have checked with a friend of mine who works at CITES and he informs me
that when I sell something like a Paph vietnamensis that I only need to
provide a receipt to the customer that shows they bought it from me. He
added that I should keep my paperwork in case they ever have questions about
where I got it. Do you all require something more if such a plant turns up
in a show or judging?

Forever curious,
Al


I heard AnTec was providing a copy of the Cites clearance papers with
the plants that were sold. Personally - I would want a copy for at
least the first couple of years. (say 5 yrs). Then I think there
will be enough plants around - including the illegal ones that there
will be a much lower risk.

SuE
http://orchids.legolas.org/gallery/orchids

Sue, are you speaking as an AOS judge or a society showchair? I am assuming
the guidelines for judging or showing such plants come from a common source
and all of you follow them. You require CITES clearance paper going back 5
years if a Ho Chi Minh shows up for judging or in a show. Is this true at
all AOS sponsored events in the US?

I have a potential cusotmer who has asked me to provide proof of legality
for this hybrid so he can show them...and I assume he means at shows and to
AOS judges. I have sent this question to the one of the local judges I know
to see what he can tell me about what is required at my local judging
station if such a plant is set in front of them but I was wondering if
anybody on this forum who is a judge or showchair can tell me the specific
policy that guides them...

FWIW, Antec did not provide any such Cites clearance to me for Paph Ho Chi
Minh flasks purchased through them.

I have a credit card receipt dated 09-29-2003 from Antec AND an undated
invoice that lists a Ho Chi Minh flask stapled to it. But nothing ties these
two pieces of paper together except a total price which is on both the
invoice and the receipt.

Antec sent me another flask of Ho Chi Min in February of 2005 as part of a
"Flask Grower Package" which included many other hybrids as well. It was
part of group purchase in which I let them pick out which flasks to send.
But the receipt does not list the specific flasks they chose.



"Susan Erickson" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 22:49:44 -0400, "Al" wrote:

I heard AnTec was providing a copy of the Cites clearance papers with
the plants that were sold. Personally - I would want a copy for at
least the first couple of years. (say 5 yrs). Then I think there
will be enough plants around - including the illegal ones that there
will be a much lower risk.

SuE
http://orchids.legolas.org/gallery/orchids

I heard AnTec was providing a copy of the Cites clearance papers with
the plants that were sold. Personally - I would want a copy for at
least the first couple of years. (say 5 yrs). Then I think there
will be enough plants around - including the illegal ones that there
will be a much lower risk.

SuE
http://orchids.legolas.org/gallery/orchids

Sue, I too have purchased flasks of vietnamense and HoChiMinh from Antec.
They provide a sales receipt listing date and species purchased but no other
documentation. They told me at the time that that was all that was necessary
since they were the only ones who could legally propagate these. And all I
had to do when I sell any is to provide a receipt with my name and address,
the buyer's name and adress along with my original purchase info from Antec
so there is a created papertrail on one page. It's no real problem to keep
track of and print a form from the computer. I encourage buyers to scan a
working copy into their computer and file the original away with important
papers - you know, the ones everyone keeps but will probably never need.
Gary

I received an answer from my orchid judge acquaintance. He said:

"You must have documentation from the place that you purchased the plant
showing that the parent Paph. vietnamense was legally obtained. From what I
understand, only the first generation has to have proof of legality. After
that, it's up to CITIES to police the matter. So what is "documentation"?
From what I understand, a simple letter from the seller will work."

A dated receipt with my business name/address, showing the customers name
and the plant's name, is pretty much all I can provide to my customers who
buy any of the Ho Chi Minh hybrids. I can state on the receipt that I got
them from Antec.

Is this enough to pass muster at any show or judging station in the US?

"Al" wrote in message
...

AOS judges. I have sent this question to the one of the local judges I
know to see what he can tell me about what is required at my local judging
station if such a plant is set in front of them

On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 01:15:58 -0400, "Al" wrote:
and all of you follow them. You require CITES clearance paper going back 5
years if a Ho Chi Minh shows up for judging or in a show. Is this true at
all AOS sponsored events in the US?

NO - Personal desire.... Not as any official capacity. from 2006-2011
I will purchase only when I can get a copy of Cites for the plant, to
carry if I want to shw.


There is the kicker -- Flasks are not in the same catagory. And the
number of plants out there at that age is part of the reason I think
all of these plants will change "cites" in the next 5 years. I don't
know how we can challenge or not challenge any of the plants
backgrounds now that ther are legal sources. With out the copy of
proof of legal source, it becomes a "well you know so and so has
them..." He said - she said.

SuE
http://orchids.legolas.org/gallery/orchids

I wanted to add a bit more (okay a lot more) info to this thread. It
started because a potential customer wrote to ask me if I could prove my
plants were legal incase he ever wanted to show them. Which made me
question if the AOS has a policy of asking for proof. I already know from
CITES that, if I am not the importer of the plant, all I CAN offer when I
sell a plant is a receipt; which can not address the issue of proof for many
reasons.

Amway:

1.) As far as I am able to determine at this point in time, the AOS does
not officially police the transfer of plants from vendor to vendor or from
vendor to customer/exhibitor.The AOS does not have any policy in place that
requires exhibitors to show proof of legality when they show a plant. This
means there is no across the board guideline for show chairs or judges to
follow. Some show chairs and judging locations may have guidelines of their
own. So if you sit a plant in front of them and they question you, ask to
see those guidelines. All you should need, (unless you are the original
importer) is a receipt; which, BTW, is NOT proof a plant is legally obtained
because CITES will already know you have it if you are the original importer
named on it and if you are not it means nothing if you present it with your
plant.

Sometimes the CITES import document is offered when newly legal plants are
sold within this country, but it is not proof the plants you are buying are
legally imported and is kind of scary if you get it and the vendor you got
it from is NOT named on it at all; meaning they are not the original
importer. (I have one of these for a flask of Paph gigantefolium. It means
nothing. I do have the receipt from the vendor. However, neither document
is proof my flask comes from plants that were legally imported.)

2.) CITES does not police the transfer of plants from vendor to vendor once
a plant crosses the border into the USA. A copy of the original CITES
document from the county of origin to the importer is not proof you are
buying plants legally obtained, even if the vendor you are buying them from
is the original importer.

3.) The is no law or official guideline from CITES to handle the transfer of
plants already in the country. If you are in the USA and are buying a plant
from a vendor in the USA and you have a question about its legal status,
contact CITES. If you buy it, obtain a receipt that has the vendor's name
and address on it as well as the name of the plant and the date of sale.
Keep it for your records. This, however, is NOT proof the plant was legally
imported.

4.) If you ever have a question about a plant's legal status in this county,
contact CITES. CITES is the only organization that can tell you if it has
ever granted permits for a particular species to enter this country. Once
it is here, it is not possible to track what happens to it. Unless you are
involved in the import/export of plants OR selling/ reselling them; you
probably do not have to worry about having plants confiscated. If you show
a plant and a show chair or judge questions the legality of it, they should
accept your word that you bought it from a vendor in this country
(especially if you have a receipt) and IF they still have questions they
should contact CITES because ONLY CITES can tell them if a species has ever
been granted a CITES import document.

Once it is here they do NOT track it or it's offspring, so depending on the
time lapsed from the first CITES document, once might GUESS at a plants
legality, but only the CITES enforcement arm and a conviction of smuggling
can prove a plant in your possession is illegally obtained, so if they turn
your plant away at a judging or show exhibit, it is my opinion that you
should raise hell and use the word "lawyer" ; especially if you have done
your homework by contacting CITES and learned how long ago the species in
question was imported for the first time with legal status.

5.) and if you have read this far, good for you.

According to Roddy Gobels from CITES, Paph vietnamensis has NEVER been
granted a permit to LEAVE Vietnam and enter the USA, so there can be no
CITES document anywhere in the paper trail for this species or it's hybrids
in the USA. However, plants that were imported ILLEGALLY were intercepted
by CITES and sent to one of the United States plant holding facilities run
by the US Botanical Gardens (USBG), By CITES treaty law confiscated plants
have to be offered back to the country of origin (Vietnam in this case) BUT
Vietnam declined and the plants stayed here in the possession of the US
government. The USBG can not sell them or give them away, but they entered
into an agreement with ANTEC labs to produce seedlings and sell them in the
USA in exchange for some of the seedlings Antec produced.

This means that all "legal" plants of paph veitnamensis and it's hybrids
trace back to a receipt from Antec. There is no CITES import document to
ask for or receive and the USBG doesn't/didn't offer any official paper I
am aware of to ANTEC with their permission. Before I bought my plants from
Antec I asked Roddy Gobels from CITES (he is a member of my local orchid
society) about these plants and he told me CITES was aware of the
arrangement with Antec and the USBG. I have never been clear about how this
arrangement made these plants legal because the USBG is not allowed to give
away or sell plants, but CITES did not concern themselves with these plants
except to confirm that Vietnam declined to have them returned when they were
offered and that they were aware of the arrangement between the USBG and
Antec. This conversation took place early in 2003.

At this point, September 2006, several vietnamenis have been shown in the
USA. One has been awarded. (actually two have been awarded, the CBR and
the AM, but one was invalidated due to the timing of one award with the
other)

At several local show/sales, this plant has been available for sale in bud
by the tray full, so this plant is here in the USA in great numbers.

No comment can be made about it's legality or the legality of it's hybrids
except by CITES.

If you try to import or export it, you will still run into trouble if you
don't manage to get the correct paperwork from CITES AND you CAN'T get
CITES permission UNLESS Vietnam allows the plant to leave it's borders with
a USA destination on the paperwork. As of September 1 2006, this has not
happened yet.

So Paph vietnamensis is a weird one with regard to CITES....you can't
legally import it or it's hybrids into the USA or export it or its hybrids
out of USA, but they are here and being sold openly.


V_coerulea" wrote in message
.. .


I heard AnTec was providing a copy of the Cites clearance papers with
the plants that were sold. Personally - I would want a copy for at
least the first couple of years. (say 5 yrs). Then I think there
will be enough plants around - including the illegal ones that there
will be a much lower risk.

SuE
http://orchids.legolas.org/gallery/orchids

Sue, I too have purchased flasks of vietnamense and HoChiMinh from Antec.
They provide a sales receipt listing date and species purchased but no
other documentation. They told me at the time that that was all that was
necessary since they were the only ones who could legally propagate these.
And all I had to do when I sell any is to provide a receipt with my name
and address, the buyer's name and adress along with my original purchase
info from Antec so there is a created papertrail on one page. It's no real
problem to keep track of and print a form from the computer. I encourage
buyers to scan a working copy into their computer and file the original
away with important papers - you know, the ones everyone keeps but will
probably never need.
Gary

Well, that's as clear as mud, but at least it covers the ground (sorry!).
Actually, that is very interesting information. Thanks for going to the
trouble to find and share it, Al.

Diana

Of all the mistakes I made in that post, the most glaring is probably that I
didn't make it clear: it was paph Ho Chi Minh that was being sold by tray
fulls at local shows, not the species vietnamensis. Apparently Antec made
and sold and gave a way an awful lot of them...

....and A Paph. vietnamense was shown by Piping Creek at an AOS judging 3
months before the one at the Paph. Forum in Feb 2006 was shown by USBG.
This invalidated the CHM for the one awarded at the Paph Forum. I was
mistaken that an AM has been awarded to Paph vietnamense.

I was mistaken about a lot of things....However, I was not mistaken that
there is no proof a vendor inside the USA can offer at the time of sale that
his/her plants were legally obtained or descended from legally obtained
stock...no matter how many pieces of paper he/she can offer to staple to
your receipt. The original CITES import document stapled to a receipt can
only mean that at some point in the past the species (not necessarily the
plant you are buying) was imported legally (and not necessarily by the
person with the stapler.

If CITES enforcement arm is going to come knocking on your door asking for
proof and they make a legal charge that the plants you own are not legal,
you are probably a plant importer and/or vendor and you have done something
to draw their attention. It is very unlikely that they will show up as a
result of a purchase from a vendor already inside this country and nobody
else should be questioning the legality of plants you own or buy inside this
country and that includes the AOS as far as I can determine. At any rate,
save your receipts... :-) I don't why, it just seems wise.

And stop asking ME for proof if you want to buy one of my Ho Chi Minh or
vietnamesis. I'd be a fool to offer them for sale in public if I didn't
believe they were legal. And all I can offer you is a receipt. I can
staple something to it from Antec if it makes you happy but this is NOT
"proof". To be honest, all I can do is make the written claim the plants
came from antec on the receipt and sign it. You can believe it or not. It
is not "proof" but it is the best any legitimate vendor can offer with
regard to these two plants.

Stop me before I type again... Somebody help!


"Al" wrote in message
...

At several local show/sales, this plant has been available for sale in bud
by the tray full, so this plant is here in the USA in great numbers.

Very interesting post Al!
Joanna

"Al" wrote in message
...
I wanted to add a bit more (okay a lot more) info to this thread. It
started because a potential customer wrote to ask me if I could prove my
plants were legal incase he ever wanted to show them. Which made me
question if the AOS has a policy of asking for proof. I already know from
CITES that, if I am not the importer of the plant, all I CAN offer when I
sell a plant is a receipt; which can not address the issue of proof for
many reasons.

Amway:

1.) As far as I am able to determine at this point in time, the AOS does
not officially police the transfer of plants from vendor to vendor or from
vendor to customer/exhibitor.The AOS does not have any policy in place
that requires exhibitors to show proof of legality when they show a plant.
This means there is no across the board guideline for show chairs or
judges to follow. Some show chairs and judging locations may have
guidelines of their own. So if you sit a plant in front of them and they
question you, ask to see those guidelines. All you should need, (unless
you are the original importer) is a receipt; which, BTW, is NOT proof a
plant is legally obtained because CITES will already know you have it if
you are the original importer named on it and if you are not it means
nothing if you present it with your plant.

Sometimes the CITES import document is offered when newly legal plants are
sold within this country, but it is not proof the plants you are buying
are legally imported and is kind of scary if you get it and the vendor you
got it from is NOT named on it at all; meaning they are not the original
importer. (I have one of these for a flask of Paph gigantefolium. It
means nothing. I do have the receipt from the vendor. However, neither
document is proof my flask comes from plants that were legally imported.)

2.) CITES does not police the transfer of plants from vendor to vendor
once a plant crosses the border into the USA. A copy of the original
CITES document from the county of origin to the importer is not proof you
are buying plants legally obtained, even if the vendor you are buying them
from is the original importer.

3.) The is no law or official guideline from CITES to handle the transfer
of plants already in the country. If you are in the USA and are buying a
plant from a vendor in the USA and you have a question about its legal
status, contact CITES. If you buy it, obtain a receipt that has the
vendor's name and address on it as well as the name of the plant and the
date of sale. Keep it for your records. This, however, is NOT proof the
plant was legally imported.

4.) If you ever have a question about a plant's legal status in this
county, contact CITES. CITES is the only organization that can tell you
if it has ever granted permits for a particular species to enter this
country. Once it is here, it is not possible to track what happens to it.
Unless you are involved in the import/export of plants OR selling/
reselling them; you probably do not have to worry about having plants
confiscated. If you show a plant and a show chair or judge questions the
legality of it, they should accept your word that you bought it from a
vendor in this country (especially if you have a receipt) and IF they
still have questions they should contact CITES because ONLY CITES can tell
them if a species has ever been granted a CITES import document.

Once it is here they do NOT track it or it's offspring, so depending on
the time lapsed from the first CITES document, once might GUESS at a
plants legality, but only the CITES enforcement arm and a conviction of
smuggling can prove a plant in your possession is illegally obtained, so
if they turn your plant away at a judging or show exhibit, it is my
opinion that you should raise hell and use the word "lawyer" ; especially
if you have done your homework by contacting CITES and learned how long
ago the species in question was imported for the first time with legal
status.

5.) and if you have read this far, good for you.

According to Roddy Gobels from CITES, Paph vietnamensis has NEVER been
granted a permit to LEAVE Vietnam and enter the USA, so there can be no
CITES document anywhere in the paper trail for this species or it's
hybrids in the USA. However, plants that were imported ILLEGALLY were
intercepted by CITES and sent to one of the United States plant holding
facilities run by the US Botanical Gardens (USBG), By CITES treaty law
confiscated plants have to be offered back to the country of origin
(Vietnam in this case) BUT Vietnam declined and the plants stayed here in
the possession of the US government. The USBG can not sell them or give
them away, but they entered into an agreement with ANTEC labs to produce
seedlings and sell them in the USA in exchange for some of the seedlings
Antec produced.

This means that all "legal" plants of paph veitnamensis and it's hybrids
trace back to a receipt from Antec. There is no CITES import document to
ask for or receive and the USBG doesn't/didn't offer any official paper I
am aware of to ANTEC with their permission. Before I bought my plants
from Antec I asked Roddy Gobels from CITES (he is a member of my local
orchid society) about these plants and he told me CITES was aware of the
arrangement with Antec and the USBG. I have never been clear about how
this arrangement made these plants legal because the USBG is not allowed
to give away or sell plants, but CITES did not concern themselves with
these plants except to confirm that Vietnam declined to have them returned
when they were offered and that they were aware of the arrangement between
the USBG and Antec. This conversation took place early in 2003.

At this point, September 2006, several vietnamenis have been shown in the
USA. One has been awarded. (actually two have been awarded, the CBR and
the AM, but one was invalidated due to the timing of one award with the
other)

At several local show/sales, this plant has been available for sale in bud
by the tray full, so this plant is here in the USA in great numbers.

No comment can be made about it's legality or the legality of it's hybrids
except by CITES.

If you try to import or export it, you will still run into trouble if you
don't manage to get the correct paperwork from CITES AND you CAN'T get
CITES permission UNLESS Vietnam allows the plant to leave it's borders
with a USA destination on the paperwork. As of September 1 2006, this has
not happened yet.

So Paph vietnamensis is a weird one with regard to CITES....you can't
legally import it or it's hybrids into the USA or export it or its hybrids
out of USA, but they are here and being sold openly.


V_coerulea" wrote in message
.. .


I heard AnTec was providing a copy of the Cites clearance papers with
the plants that were sold. Personally - I would want a copy for at
least the first couple of years. (say 5 yrs). Then I think there
will be enough plants around - including the illegal ones that there
will be a much lower risk.

SuE
http://orchids.legolas.org/gallery/orchids

Sue, I too have purchased flasks of vietnamense and HoChiMinh from Antec.
They provide a sales receipt listing date and species purchased but no
other documentation. They told me at the time that that was all that was
necessary since they were the only ones who could legally propagate
these. And all I had to do when I sell any is to provide a receipt with
my name and address, the buyer's name and adress along with my original
purchase info from Antec so there is a created papertrail on one page.
It's no real problem to keep track of and print a form from the computer.
I encourage buyers to scan a working copy into their computer and file
the original away with important papers - you know, the ones everyone
keeps but will probably never need.
Gary

Oh my Al? Could I borrow your antennae plz?
No seriously, you should be writing books.
Just one question, as none of this info affects me, but shouldn't the
guidelines of each society be the same?

--
Cheers Wendy

No Spam Email Address Invalid

Al wrote:
Of all the mistakes I made in that post, the most glaring is probably
that I didn't make it clear: it was paph Ho Chi Minh that was being
sold by tray fulls at local shows, not the species vietnamensis. Apparently Antec
made and sold and gave a way an awful lot of them...

...and A Paph. vietnamense was shown by Piping Creek at an AOS
judging 3 months before the one at the Paph. Forum in Feb 2006 was
shown by USBG. This invalidated the CHM for the one awarded at the
Paph Forum. I was mistaken that an AM has been awarded to Paph
vietnamense.
I was mistaken about a lot of things....However, I was not mistaken
that there is no proof a vendor inside the USA can offer at the time
of sale that his/her plants were legally obtained or descended from
legally obtained stock...no matter how many pieces of paper he/she
can offer to staple to your receipt. The original CITES import
document stapled to a receipt can only mean that at some point in the
past the species (not necessarily the plant you are buying) was
imported legally (and not necessarily by the person with the stapler.

If CITES enforcement arm is going to come knocking on your door
asking for proof and they make a legal charge that the plants you own
are not legal, you are probably a plant importer and/or vendor and
you have done something to draw their attention. It is very unlikely
that they will show up as a result of a purchase from a vendor
already inside this country and nobody else should be questioning the
legality of plants you own or buy inside this country and that
includes the AOS as far as I can determine. At any rate, save your
receipts... :-) I don't why, it just seems wise.
And stop asking ME for proof if you want to buy one of my Ho Chi Minh
or vietnamesis. I'd be a fool to offer them for sale in public if I
didn't believe they were legal. And all I can offer you is a
receipt. I can staple something to it from Antec if it makes you
happy but this is NOT "proof". To be honest, all I can do is make
the written claim the plants came from antec on the receipt and sign
it. You can believe it or not. It is not "proof" but it is the best
any legitimate vendor can offer with regard to these two plants.

Stop me before I type again... Somebody help!


"Al" wrote in message
...

At several local show/sales, this plant has been available for sale
in bud by the tray full, so this plant is here in the USA in great
numbers.

Does the AOS have any official guidelines for show chairs and Judges to use
when a plant like Paph vietnamense (I know I keep spelling it wrong) or Ho
Chi Minh show up at shows or judging events? It seems like a good idea. I
send out a few emails to judges and people I know to be show chairs and got
lots of opinions but no direct answer as to written policy. One of them
said they would ask and post the reply on their judging website. But so
far, nothing. I am wondering if the customer who questioned me about my
ability to proof my plant were legal incase he ever wanted to show them was
just asking out of ignorance or had heard someplace that proof must be
provided when exhibiting certain plants.

I do believe the AOS will stay out of because it becomes kind a litigious
question and there really is no proof any exhibitor can offer that a plan
they show is legal.

Just because I am waving a CITIES import document with my name as the
importer and the species I am exhibiting listed on it too is NOT proof the
plant I am exhibiting was the plant mentioned in the document. The AOS
judges might decide it is and then later I get arrested, tried and convicted
on a smuggling charge that includes plants of this very species brought in
from a different route on or near the date of the CITES import document. I
think something like this has already happened although I am not sure of the
specifics. I have the name of a very famous Paph vendor/importer who had a
plant awarded and was later in trouble with the law for it. I do not know
the specifics so I leave out the name. The question now becomes for this
particular awarded plant, "What should AOS do with an award if a plant is
proven to be 'illegal'. They collect and record data on the plant and
exhibitor, and this is not breaking any law at all, so why ask for proof of
legality or even debate the question? The exhibitor is the one taking the
chance.

This is behind the potential customer's question: "Can I proof the plant I
am selling him is legally obtained so he can be secure in showing it. My
answer is "I can provide a written statement with the receipt that I got it
from Antec and sign my name on it." It is not proof, but it is all I can
offer. The proof occurs in court with a conviction or (whatever the
opposite of a conviction is).... A person who bought plants from me would
probably not ever be convicted of anything illegal and I am sure I would
not, but the proof happens in court. "Can the prosecutor prove I have ever
been involved in bringing plants into this county without the proper
permits." I think not.

I suppose my plants could be confiscated if they were deemed to be evidence
in a legal proceeding against me or somebody else.... I don't know and I
don't know if that has ever happened. I only know of confiscated plants
directly from the importer.... And I only know that from the internet.

Conversely, many judging locations operate in front of an audience. They
sit there and debate the merits of a plant as they decide to score it.
That's how my local judging station works. Observers, clerks, other
exhibitors, other judges are all witnesses as to what is being said. So I
show up with Paph vietnamensis and so does another exhibitor and we all sit
there and watch them apply whatever rules they have in determining if the
plant can be judged based on it being 'legally obtained". They turn me away
because my receipt is not proof but they decide to judge the other plant.
They have just called me a smuggler or liar in front of everyone and I know
a lawyer. I wonder if the judges are speaking for themselves and are
putting their own mortgages on the line with the opinion that my plant is
not legally obtained or (even better) that they are speaking as officials of
the AOS, a much richer organization. I do not know from whence their
authority to pronounce my plant 'legal" comes.

I do know that this has come up already also, one judge wrote me back
recently and said of a recently exhibited plant and exhibitor not in the
room...."It was said yesterday at judging "We don't want to challenge that".
Reason - We didn't want to question the exhibitor of doing something illegal
because of who he was. Personally, I think that if AOS questions one
person, then EVERYONE needs to be questioned." I don't know who said it. I
know who wrote to me and they shall remain nameless. :-)

I think the bottom lines here a

Keep your receipts and make sure they point with names and addresses to the
vendor. Receipts missing plant names, vendor names and dates are as bad as
nothing at all.
Buy from vendors you trust already inside the country.
Don't worry about proof unless you are the importer, you are most likely
save. CITES goes after import/export violators.
And, the AOS should probably make it clear to their judges to stay out of
any questions of 'legality" and that their only responsibility is to
cooperate with CITIES in any investigation---which is not the same thing as
acting on behalf of CITES. But I don't know what the AOS's policy is and I
think each location is left to their own rationale. I think that is a bad
idea.

A truly bottom line:

It just bugs me that I have had so many people walk away from purchasing
these two plants because what I can offer as proof does not sound like proof
to them. I actually remember cracking up on the phone with a potential
customer a year or so ago and saying, "If proof is a receipt from Antec,
then buy the plant from ANTEC." Bad move, I know because I can give them a
copy of a purchase receipt from Antec, proofless though it is, but I can do
it if it makes them happy. I probably also banged my head on the wall after
I hung up and blacked out because I still have lumps but remember nothing
concrete after making that statement.

And a final statement from me:

I said "STOP me before I type again." Ahhhhhh! I think you may require
physical restraints.

And mo
Does anybody really read any of this crap? :-)

"wendy7" wrote in message
news:iYgLg.14899$WK4.9951@fed1read06...
Oh my Al? Could I borrow your antennae plz?
No seriously, you should be writing books.
Just one question, as none of this info affects me, but shouldn't the
guidelines of each society be the same?

--
Cheers Wendy

No Spam Email Address Invalid

Al wrote:
Of all the mistakes I made in that post, the most glaring is probably
that I didn't make it clear: it was paph Ho Chi Minh that was being
sold by tray fulls at local shows, not the species vietnamensis.
Apparently Antec made and sold and gave a way an awful lot of them...

...and A Paph. vietnamense was shown by Piping Creek at an AOS
judging 3 months before the one at the Paph. Forum in Feb 2006 was
shown by USBG. This invalidated the CHM for the one awarded at the
Paph Forum. I was mistaken that an AM has been awarded to Paph
vietnamense.
I was mistaken about a lot of things....However, I was not mistaken
that there is no proof a vendor inside the USA can offer at the time
of sale that his/her plants were legally obtained or descended from
legally obtained stock...no matter how many pieces of paper he/she
can offer to staple to your receipt. The original CITES import
document stapled to a receipt can only mean that at some point in the
past the species (not necessarily the plant you are buying) was
imported legally (and not necessarily by the person with the stapler.

If CITES enforcement arm is going to come knocking on your door
asking for proof and they make a legal charge that the plants you own
are not legal, you are probably a plant importer and/or vendor and
you have done something to draw their attention. It is very unlikely
that they will show up as a result of a purchase from a vendor
already inside this country and nobody else should be questioning the
legality of plants you own or buy inside this country and that
includes the AOS as far as I can determine. At any rate, save your
receipts... :-) I don't why, it just seems wise.
And stop asking ME for proof if you want to buy one of my Ho Chi Minh
or vietnamesis. I'd be a fool to offer them for sale in public if I
didn't believe they were legal. And all I can offer you is a
receipt. I can staple something to it from Antec if it makes you
happy but this is NOT "proof". To be honest, all I can do is make
the written claim the plants came from antec on the receipt and sign
it. You can believe it or not. It is not "proof" but it is the best
any legitimate vendor can offer with regard to these two plants.

Stop me before I type again... Somebody help!


"Al" wrote in message
...

At several local show/sales, this plant has been available for sale
in bud by the tray full, so this plant is here in the USA in great
numbers.

Hey Al,

Your writings are about the way that I understand things.

Ho Chi Minh is now in the potted plant market. It is sold in bud by the
tray with no special treatment and not really that big a premium over a
delenatti (5 - 10 bucks). There are now various strains of Ho Chi Minh
being sold. But that should not surprise anyone given the number of
imported flasks that were openly sold at shows. I think some of the Ho Chi
Minhs coming out of the west coast are the best, better color and a little
different shape. I do not think Bob has anything in his greenhouses that
could make these, but I am not sure if it is because of a different
vietnamensis used for a parent or just a better delenatti. But, the newer
darker delenattis we are seeing are just as illegal as any vietnamensis that
can not be traced back to Antec.

People who ask for copies of CITES paperwork do not understand the problems.
The plants from Antec have never crossed international borders and thus have
no CITES paperwork. The plants that arrived to the US in flask from Twain
all came with valid CITES paperwork. The ones with the valid Twain issued
CITES paperwork are the illegal ones. I do not know anyone trying to export
Ho Chi Minhs, stories of trying to get CITES paperwork for those might be
interesting. As long as the plant is staying in the US and is not something
that Antec has never made, I think we are at the point that vietnamensis and
its hybrids will be treated no differently than any other schedule 1 orchid.
In a couple of years I think we will be able to drop the Antec made hybrid
qualifier.

The AOS will never become the police for Fish & Wildlife unless, of course,
the AOS worked out a deal that excluded judges from the CITES rules.

Pat

And mo
Does anybody really read any of this crap? :-)

Um, yeah! No more head banging, Al, or we'll have to send someone in with a
wench.

Diana

Somebody just wrote to me to say that there is a discussion of policy or
guidelines in an old AQ someplace regarding this issue; something that might
be summarized thusly: the policy is that species described since the 1990
ban on the importation of Paphiopedilum species cannot be judged unless the
exhibitor can provide evidence regarding the legality of the plant in
question. (you mean they have something besides pictures in them?) I will
start searching my old AQs shortly but they only go back to about the year
2000 and they are spread all over the creation... If anybody can find it
and point me at it, I will stop banging my head on walls at least for a
little while.

There are actually quite a few knowledgeable people who either read this
newsgroup or have contact by email with people who do. There's a lot of
connection below the public chatter and I am getting quite a few interesting
emails on this topic.

"Diana Kulaga" wrote in message
...
And mo
Does anybody really read any of this crap? :-)

Um, yeah! No more head banging, Al, or we'll have to send someone in with
a wench.

Diana