On Jul 27, 12:14*pm, "Bob F" wrote:
Laurence wrote:
Hi, our current lawn is looking a bit tired and the garden needs
leveling off. I'm trying to work out if I need to remove the existing
lawn or can I just dig the whole lot over, level it out then put
topsoil and seed / turf.

Basically I'm looking for the easiest why to level out our bumpy
garden and get some nice grass down before next summer !

Thanks

Overseed, fertilize, water, and mow regularly. But don't mow short - use the
mowers highest setting.

If you don't do the above, start there.



If you look back a month or so in this group, you will find another
thread where a similar question was asked and answered. It comes up
frequently. An important part of the answer is it all depends on
what you have there now and how you want it to look to be satisfied.
If you have a decent amount of desirable grass, it's not disease
prone, you are not looking for a uniform look as far as texture and
color, the soil is OK, then overseeding could be the way to go. On
the other hand, if you have a lot of crap, course grass that looks
like hell, then killing it off with Roundup and reseeding could be the
way to go. Even if you decide to go that route, as long as the
topsoil is OK and off sufficient depth, then there is no need to till
it all up. You can spray it with Roundup, mow it short 7-10 days
later when it's dead, then go over it with a core aerator. Add
topsoil in spots needed to level it out, then go over it with a slice
seeder to apply the new high quality seed.

wrote in message
...
On Jul 27, 12:14 pm, "Bob F" wrote:
Laurence wrote:
Hi, our current lawn is looking a bit tired and the garden needs
leveling off. I'm trying to work out if I need to remove the existing
lawn or can I just dig the whole lot over, level it out then put
topsoil and seed / turf.

Basically I'm looking for the easiest why to level out our bumpy
garden and get some nice grass down before next summer !

Thanks

Overseed, fertilize, water, and mow regularly. But don't mow short - use
the
mowers highest setting.

If you don't do the above, start there.



If you look back a month or so in this group, you will find another
thread where a similar question was asked and answered. It comes up
frequently. An important part of the answer is it all depends on
what you have there now and how you want it to look to be satisfied.
If you have a decent amount of desirable grass, it's not disease
prone, you are not looking for a uniform look as far as texture and
color, the soil is OK, then overseeding could be the way to go. On
the other hand, if you have a lot of crap, course grass that looks
like hell, then killing it off with Roundup and reseeding could be the
way to go. Even if you decide to go that route, as long as the
topsoil is OK and off sufficient depth, then there is no need to till
it all up. You can spray it with Roundup, mow it short 7-10 days
later when it's dead, then go over it with a core aerator. Add
topsoil in spots needed to level it out, then go over it with a slice
seeder to apply the new high quality seed.

The above advice is misleading at best -- the real answer is that it all
depends upon where you live and what type of grass you have. Seeding is
rarely the best way to redo a lawn, and never the easiest way, which was the
question.

In many parts of the U.S. there are no sources for seeds of the preferred
turf varieties such as varieties like floratam, bitter blue or palmetto -
sod and plugs are the only quality anwer. You can either resod or use the
lower cost alternative of putting in plugs of the right variety and allowing
them to take over the bare spaces. If you want to take care of a few rough
spots, just level the ruts, install a few plugs and let them take over. It
won't be too long before you'll have a nice smooth lawn back. For larger
areas, sod will give you almost instant gratification and a better lawn than
other choices.

The people with the specific answers are not on Usenet, they're your local
Master Gardeners and extension service.

On Jul 30, 10:24*pm, "JimR" wrote:
wrote in message

...
On Jul 27, 12:14 pm, "Bob F" wrote:





Laurence wrote:
Hi, our current lawn is looking a bit tired and the garden needs
leveling off. I'm trying to work out if I need to remove the existing
lawn or can I just dig the whole lot over, level it out then put
topsoil and seed / turf.

Basically I'm looking for the easiest why to level out our bumpy
garden and get some nice grass down before next summer !

Thanks

Overseed, fertilize, water, and mow regularly. But don't mow short - use
the
mowers highest setting.

If you don't do the above, start there.

If you look back a month or so in this group, you will find another
thread where a similar question was asked and answered. * It comes up
frequently. * An important part of *the answer is it all depends on
what you have there now and how you want it to look to be satisfied.
If you have a decent amount of desirable grass, it's not disease
prone, you are not looking for a uniform look as far as texture and
color, the soil is OK, then overseeding could be the way to go. * On
the other hand, if you have a lot of crap, course grass that looks
like hell, then killing it off with Roundup and reseeding could be the
way to go. * Even if you decide to go that route, as long as the
topsoil is OK and off sufficient depth, then there is no need to till
it all up. * * You can spray it with Roundup, mow it short 7-10 days
later when it's dead, then go over it with a core aerator. * Add
topsoil in spots needed to level it out, then go over it with a slice
seeder to apply the new high quality seed.

The above advice is misleading at best -- the real answer is that it all
depends upon where you live and what type of grass you have. *


And here comes Jim, adding little, but jumping on others who provide
useful and correct advice. I clearly told Laurence that it depends
on what he has there now and how he wants it to look. Any reasonable
person would take that to include the type of grass.



Seeding is
rarely the best way to redo a lawn, and never the easiest way, which was the
question.

Total BS. He never asked for what was easiest. He asked if he needed
to remove the existing turf first or just till it and level. That
doesn't sound like someone looking for doing it the easy way. If
you want easy, just open the yellow pages and get a contractor to do
the whole job.

Seeding is both effective and relatively easy. I know because I've
done it many times,



In many parts of the U.S. there are no sources for seeds of the preferred
turf varieties such as varieties like floratam, bitter blue or palmetto -
sod and plugs are the only quality anwer.

That's true and for good reason. Those are St Augustine varieties,
which are warm season grasses and won't grow in 80% of the US.



You can either resod or use the
lower cost alternative of putting in plugs of the right variety and allowing
them to take over the bare spaces. *If you want to take care of a few rough
spots, just level the ruts, install a few plugs and let them take over. *It
won't be too long before you'll have a nice smooth lawn back.

And how are those grasses going to do in the UK? See any of it
growing there? If you bothered to look where his post originated,
and the terminology he used, ie "garden" for lawn, that's where it
appears he's from. You jump on me about grass type, then turn around
and rant about warm season grass plugs.



*For larger
areas, sod will give you almost instant gratification and a better lawn than
other choices.

Where do you think sod comes from? A sod factory? It's grown from
seed on a sod farm. It will give you no better a lawn than seeding
properly with the same seed yourself. It will however, cost a lot
more.

It is instant gratification, but again, I didn't see that mentioned as
a requirement. And it isn't easier than seeding. He can aerate,
add topsoil to low spots, then use a slice seeder to apply the seed.
You can do a 10,000 sq ft lawn easily in less than a day.

With sod, he has to do ALL the work that he had listed, ie he has to
till up the whole thing up and deal with the chopped up existing
turf. He apparently realizes that, hence his question about dealing
with the existing turf. Anyone who's attempted to level a lawn full of
dead grass clumps knows how much work that is. And then he has to lay
down the sod, which is no small task either.

Don't get me wrong. Sod can be a great solution depending on the
right application. But you have to weigh the cost/benefits and
figure out if it's right for you.



The people with the specific answers are not on Usenet, they're your local
Master Gardeners and extension service.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


If that's the case, why are you here giving answers? Isn't this
Usenet?

If you want to see what an extension service has to say, here's just
one example that is consistent with everything I outlined in my post
and applies to cool season grasses in the UK as well.

http://www.extension.umn.edu/distrib...re/DG3914.html


A simple googling of lawn renovation will produce many other
examples. Is suggest Laurence do that, then he can figure out who
knows what they're talking about.

wrote in message
...
On Jul 30, 10:24 pm, "JimR" wrote:
wrote in message

...
On Jul 27, 12:14 pm, "Bob F" wrote:

Laurence wrote:

[--]
Basically I'm looking for the easiest why to level out our bumpy
garden and get some nice grass down before next summer !

Thanks


[--]

Seeding is
rarely the best way to redo a lawn, and never the easiest way, which was
the
question.

Total BS. He never asked for what was easiest.

Please go back and reread the original - the specific question was
"Basically I'm looking for the easiest way to . . .

[--]

Seeding is both effective and relatively easy. I know because I've
done it many times,

He specifically asked for the "easiest" - that's sod or plugs



In many parts of the U.S. there are no sources for seeds of the preferred
turf varieties such as varieties like floratam, bitter blue or palmetto -
sod and plugs are the only quality anwer.

That's true and for good reason. Those are St Augustine varieties,
which are warm season grasses and won't grow in 80% of the US.

You are wrong here, also. The reason you can't buy seeds is because they
don't exist - these are sterile hybrids which do not produce seed. They
reproduce by vegetative reproduction, as do some of the other better quality
turf grasses, cold and warm weather.

There are lower quality turf types which do produce seed, but sod from a
good source is almost invariably a higher quality product.

You can either resod or use the
lower cost alternative of putting in plugs of the right variety and
allowing
them to take over the bare spaces. If you want to take care of a few rough
spots, just level the ruts, install a few plugs and let them take over. It
won't be too long before you'll have a nice smooth lawn back.

And how are those grasses going to do in the UK? See any of it
growing there? If you bothered to look where his post originated,
and the terminology he used, ie "garden" for lawn, that's where it
appears he's from. You jump on me about grass type, then turn around
and rant about warm season grass plugs.

There's nothing in there about warm season grass plugs! Read it again - get
plugs of the right variety !!

For larger
areas, sod will give you almost instant gratification and a better lawn
than
other choices.

Where do you think sod comes from? A sod factory? It's grown from
seed on a sod farm.

Wrong again. I live in the middle of a huge sod-growing region. All of the
quality sod here is grown from vegetative reproduction, for reasons of
bioloogy, cost and quality.

[--]
With sod, he has to do ALL the work that he had listed, ie he has to
till up the whole thing up and deal with the chopped up existing
turf. He apparently realizes that, hence his question about dealing
with the existing turf. Anyone who's attempted to level a lawn full of
dead grass clumps knows how much work that is. And then he has to lay
down the sod, which is no small task either.

And with seed, he has to do all of the same preliminary work, then seed,
water, keep the pets out, worry about heavy rains and washouts, keep the
irrigation right, watch out for weeds growing into the new growth -- face
it, seeding is not the easiest way for him to fix his lawn. It may be the
cheapest, but only if you put no cost value on your personal time that has
to be spent caring for the newly seeded lawn.

Don't get me wrong. Sod can be a great solution depending on the
right application. But you have to weigh the cost/benefits and
figure out if it's right for you.

The people with the specific answers are not on Usenet, they're your local
Master Gardeners and extension service.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If that's the case, why are you here giving answers? Isn't this
Usenet?

You have another error - what I was pointing out is that there are more
options available, that some of your recommendations don't pass the smell
test, and the easiest method may actually be sprigs and plugs of the local
varieties, which in most of the UK are readily available at gardeners and
even some of the larger chemists. (I've lived in the UK for awhile --)
[--]

A simple googling of lawn renovation will produce many other
examples. Is suggest Laurence do that, then he can figure out who
knows what they're talking about.

Only half an error - you've got to rely on local knowledge because local
conditions - climatic, cultural, financiall, etc. -- will dictate the right
answer. Going on to the internet for the answer means you have to wade
through thousands of references that ultimately will not apply to your
particular situation, and with recommendations that only apply somewhere
else.

One of your problems seems to be that you only have local knowledge and are
trying to apply it universally. Otherwise, why would you be wrong about so
many of the elements in the OP's question?

On Aug 2, 10:08*pm, "JimR" wrote:
wrote in message

...
On Jul 30, 10:24 pm, "JimR" wrote:

wrote in message

....
On Jul 27, 12:14 pm, "Bob F" wrote:

Laurence wrote:

[--]
Basically I'm looking for the easiest why to level out our bumpy
garden and get some nice grass down before next summer !

Thanks

[--]

Seeding is
rarely the best way to redo a lawn, and never the easiest way, which was
the
question.
Total BS. He never asked for what was easiest.

Please go back and reread the original - the specific question was
"Basically I'm looking for the easiest way to . . .

Are you totally stupid? The OP never asked what was easiest. He
asked:

"Hi, our current lawn is looking a bit tired and the garden needs
leveling off. I'm trying to work out if I need to remove the existing
lawn or can I just dig the whole lot over, level it out then put
topsoil and seed / turf. "






[--]

Seeding is both effective and relatively easy. *I know because I've
done it many times,

He specifically asked for the "easiest" - that's sod or plugs


More total BS, he never used the word easiest, or anything even close
to it.






In many parts of the U.S. there are no sources for seeds of the preferred
turf varieties such as varieties like floratam, bitter blue or palmetto -
sod and plugs are the only quality anwer.
That's true and for good reason. * Those are St Augustine varieties,
which are warm season grasses and won't grow in 80% of the US.

You are wrong here, also. *The reason you can't buy seeds is because they
don't exist - these are sterile hybrids which do not produce seed. *They
reproduce by vegetative reproduction, as do some of the other better quality
turf grasses, cold and warm weather.

More complete BS. You don't see St Augustine, which are the
varieties you listed in most of the US, like in NJ or Chicago because
they won't grow there.




There are lower quality turf types which do produce seed, but sod from a
good source is almost invariably a higher quality product.

And yet more total BS. Most of the sod farms are planting seed that
is available, in most cases, to anyone. Plant the same seed and you
have the same grass.




You can either resod or use the
lower cost alternative of putting in plugs of the right variety and
allowing
them to take over the bare spaces. If you want to take care of a few rough
spots, just level the ruts, install a few plugs and let them take over. It
won't be too long before you'll have a nice smooth lawn back.
And how are those grasses going to do in the UK? *See any of it
growing there? * *If you bothered to look where his post originated,
and the terminology he used, ie "garden" for lawn, that's where it
appears he's from. * You jump on me about grass type, then turn around
and rant about warm season grass plugs.

There's nothing in there about warm season grass plugs! *Read it again - get
plugs of the right variety !!



What the hell are those varieties of St Augustine that you
recommended? Do they grow in the UK? Idiot!



For larger
areas, sod will give you almost instant gratification and a better lawn
than
other choices.
Where do you think sod comes from? * A sod factory? * It's grown from
seed on a sod farm.

Wrong again. *I live in the middle of a huge sod-growing region. *All of the
quality sod here is grown from vegetative reproduction, for reasons of
bioloogy, cost and quality.



And more BS. Most sod and certainly the sod in the UK, is grown from
seed.




[--]

With sod, he has to do ALL the work that he had listed, ie he has to
till up the whole thing up and deal with the chopped up existing
turf. * He apparently realizes that, hence his question about dealing
with the existing turf. Anyone who's attempted to level a lawn full of
dead grass clumps knows how much work that is. *And then he has to lay
down the sod, which is no small task either.

And with seed, he has to do all of the same preliminary work,


Wrong yet again. He doesn't have to till the whole yard or remove
the existing turf to re-seed. All he has to do is kill it off with
Roundup, mow it close, rake, then use a slice seeder. The
difference in work is huge, as anyone that has wrestled with what you
have after you till a yard full of existing turf.



then seed,
water, keep the pets out,

A new invention, he never mentioned pets. Even if he has them,
keeping them out of an area for 2 months doesn't seem a huge obstacle.


worry about heavy rains and washouts,

Mainly an issue on grades, again he never mentioned any grades.


keep the
irrigation right,


Well, Duh! I guess you don't have to water new sod according to you,
right?



watch out for weeds growing into the new growth --

Done in Fall, weeds are not a major issue. Sure, he may have to take
a 2 gal tank sprayer and hit some weeds in the spring, but so what?
Does that mean it's forget it and let's go with $$$$ sod?


face
it, seeding is not the easiest way for him to fix his lawn.


He never said he wanted the easiest solution, idiot. If he wants
that, he can just open the yellow pages and get someone to do the
whole thing, start to finish.


*It may be the
cheapest, but only if you put no cost value on your personal time that has
to be spent caring for the newly seeded lawn.

Yeah, it's real difficult programming an irrigation controller. And
even if he uses SOD, he still has to water it, so it ain't much
different from that aspect.




Don't get me wrong. *Sod can be a great solution depending on the
right application. * But you have to weigh the cost/benefits and
figure out if it's right for you.

The people with the specific answers are not on Usenet, they're your local
Master Gardeners and extension service.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
If that's the case, why are you here giving answers? * Isn't this
Usenet?

You have another error - what I was pointing out is that there are more
options available, that some of your recommendations don't pass the smell
test,

No, you started off by saying the advice I gave was "misleading at
best". Had you just stated "other options", we probably wouldn't be
here now. And then you went on to say:

"The people with the specific answers are not on Usenet, they're your
local
Master Gardeners and extension service. "

Which slams everyone giving advice here. And yet, here you are,
giving advice. Idiot.







and the easiest method may actually be sprigs and plugs of the local
varieties, which in most of the UK are readily available at gardeners and
even some of the larger chemists. *(I've lived in the UK for awhile --)
[--]

A simple googling of lawn renovation will produce many other
examples. *Is suggest Laurence do that, then he can figure out who
knows what they're talking about.

Only half an error - you've got to rely on local knowledge because local
conditions - climatic, cultural, financiall, etc. -- will dictate the right
answer. *Going on to the internet for the answer means you have to wade
through thousands of references that ultimately will not apply to your
particular situation, and with recommendations that only apply somewhere
else.

One of your problems seems to be that you only have local knowledge and are
trying to apply it universally. *Otherwise, why would you be wrong about so
many of the elements in the OP's question?

I'll let other judge who's wrong here. You are the one ranting on
recommending St Augustine for a guy in the UK. You're the one
claiming that a lawn renovation using seed is a bad idea, when
everyone else, including the link I provided to a university, say it
works.

How about a link for using St Augustine in the UK? Idiot.

wrote in message
...
On Aug 2, 10:08 pm, "JimR" wrote:
wrote in message

...
On Jul 30, 10:24 pm, "JimR" wrote:

wrote in message

...
On Jul 27, 12:14 pm, "Bob F" wrote:

Laurence wrote:

[--]
Basically I'm looking for the easiest why to level out our bumpy
garden and get some nice grass down before next summer !

Thanks

[Irrelevant comments from someone who hadn't read the question (which I've
repeated, above) snipped --]

You asked for the easiest way -- To repeat my answer to your question - In
my opinion, and backed up by having lived in the UK for awhile, the easiest
way to do what you want is to fill in the ruts and get some plugs of the
turf variety that suits your climate and give them a little time to grow in.
Anything else is overkill. I suggest this with experience living in the
U.S., Canada, Europe and Asia, and with a background that includes extensive
homeowner assistance programs for environmental horticulture.

There seems to be some background noise on this thread from someone who
didn't read your question, then tried to misread into the reasonable answer
things that were not there - who wants to apply a Pennsylvania solution to a
UK question. You don't need to kill off your existing turf just to improve
it, and you certainly don't need to go to the expense and trouble of
completely reseeding if your existing lawn is the way you've described it.

There are probably still some people around that have to use seed because
they can't afford anything better, but at least in this area I have not seen
anyone use seed to either start a new lawn or refurbish an older one. No
one - not the builders, not the golf courses, not the resorts, not the turf
farms, and certainly not the homeowners -- use seed. They all use sod,
sprigs and plugs, and both the state extension service and the Master
Gardener program recommend using sod and not seed. Everyone understands
that using sod produces a better, more weed-free lawn for a lot less effort.
It also takes much less water to maintain, important in many areas these
days. In this area, a lawn grown from seed is not going to be a quality
product.

Now, while this area is not the UK, this points out the benefits of using
sod, which is now the methodology of choice throughout much of North
America. If you can get sod plugs of the right variety in the UK, and my
experience suggests you can, then that's the easiest method, which answers
your question. I used to get my things from a chemist shop on the road
going west out of Greenham Common, where the proprietor dabbled in gardening
things at the side of his building, but I'm sure his shop is replicated in
other parts of the UK.

In fact, around here the only place I know of that uses seed is Fish and
Wildlife, which uses a coarse grass seed on its dove fields to attract birds
and get the fields ready for the fall dove season. So unless you're trying
to create a bait station within shotgun range . . .

Regards --

On Aug 3, 10:05*pm, "JimR" wrote:
wrote in message

...
On Aug 2, 10:08 pm, "JimR" wrote:



wrote in message

...
On Jul 30, 10:24 pm, "JimR" wrote:

wrote in message

....
On Jul 27, 12:14 pm, "Bob F" wrote:

Laurence wrote:

[--]
Basically I'm looking for the easiest why to level out our bumpy
garden and get some nice grass down before next summer !

Thanks

[Irrelevant comments from someone who hadn't read the question (which I've
repeated, above) snipped --]


The OP posted his question once and hasn't been seen since. So,
obviously, you're not ignoring my posts, but rather won't directly
address them because you know you are dead wrong.




You asked for the easiest way --

To repeat my answer to your question - In
my opinion, and backed up by having lived in the UK for awhile, the easiest
way to do what you want is to fill in the ruts and get some plugs of the
turf variety that suits your climate and give them a little time to grow in.

And what specific plugs would those be to use in the UK? The UK
isn't Florida. It's an area suited to cool season grasses, which are
established from seed.

I'd like you to show us any widespread availability in the UK of plugs
for turf. Show us a website. Show us where he can buy St. Augustine
in the UK. I can show you plenty of websites selling seed, because
that's how most cool season grasses are established.

Here's just one from the UK for you:

http://www.jubilee-seeds.co.uk/acata...e_service.html

Not only do they sell seed, no plugs, but their procedures for lawn
renovation are very close to what I recommended and which you called
"misleading at best".


Anything else is overkill. *I suggest this with experience living in the
U.S., Canada, Europe and Asia, and with a background that includes extensive
homeowner assistance programs for environmental horticulture.

God help those who listened to you.



There seems to be some background noise on this thread from someone who
didn't read your question, then tried to misread into the reasonable answer
things that were not there - who wants to apply a Pennsylvania solution to a
UK question.

Funny how companies in the UK offer basicly the same advice that I
gave and sell no warm season St. Augustine grass plugs, which is what
you recommended.



*You don't need to kill off your existing turf just to improve
it, and you certainly don't need to go to the expense and trouble of
completely reseeding if your existing lawn is the way you've described it..

Yes, which is why in my answer to the OP I stated:

"An important part of the answer is it all depends on
what you have there now and how you want it to look to be satisfied.
If you have a decent amount of desirable grass, it's not disease
prone, you are not looking for a uniform look as far as texture and
color, the soil is OK, then overseeding could be the way to go. On
the other hand, if you have a lot of crap, course grass that looks
like hell, then killing it off with Roundup and reseeding could be
the
way to go. "







There are probably still some people around that have to use seed because
they can't afford anything better, but at least in this area I have not seen
anyone use seed to either start a new lawn or refurbish an older one. *

No
one - not the builders, not the golf courses, not the resorts, not the turf
farms, and certainly not the homeowners -- use seed. *They all use sod,
sprigs and plugs, and both the state extension service and the Master
Gardener program recommend using sod and not seed. *

And there we have it. The village idiot thinks because he lives
where warm season grasses are prevalent that this applies
everywhere. Come to the rest of the US, where cool season grasses
prevail and they are established from seed or sod, not plugs. Now
what should I believe, my eyes, where when I drive around the nj/ny/pa
area and see lawns being done with seed, or you? Try googling
"hydroseed". Funny if seeding is rarely used that there are boat
loads of companies offering this service. I see their trucks all the
time. And boat loads of seed companies selling seed.


Don;t get me wrong, sod is widely used too. But it's not that it
dominates and is the right solution and the other is "rarely" used.
Show us a reference that backs up your claim that seed is rarely used
to establish turf in the USA.



Everyone understands
that using sod produces a better, more weed-free lawn for a lot less effort.

On the added hand, if you accept a lot of crap, advance grass that looks like hell, again killing it off with Roundup and reseeding could be the way to go. Even if you adjudge to go that route, as continued as the topsoil is OK and off acceptable depth, again there is no charge to till it all up.